Top 10 at Facehammer with Deathmarch

[ianob]

On today’s Episode of the podcast I talked about my new Deathmarch list that I took to a 4-1 finish at Facehammer, taking 10th place overall (approx 5thish without soft scores)

A lot of people have asked me for the list/how it works/etc and I think a lot of people think that some of this stuff is unplayable so I figured I’d post it here for discussion. Feel free to ask any questions!

 

Unknown 2.pdf

[Ravinsild]

As you can see from my lists in GHoN and LoS it’s quite different from yours... do you think mine are playable or have I made a misstep somewhere in the list building process?

[ianob]

24 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

As you can see from my lists in GHoN and LoS it’s quite different from yours... do you think mine are playable or have I made a misstep somewhere in the list building process?

Yeah. 10 Man units of Grave Guard aren’t doing anything, and make your command points less efficient (to the point of uselessness). 10 man BKs with only one buff similarly aren’t hitting hard enough nor do they have enough wounds. Finally, your general will rarely live to rez a unit. You’re trying to do a little too much and end up doing nothing well. And you’re way too many drops which defeats the object of paying for the largely overcosted Deathmarch and the models it makes you buy.

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, ianob said:

Yeah. 10 Man units of Grave Guard aren’t doing anything, and make your command points less efficient (to the point of uselessness). 10 man BKs with only one buff similarly aren’t hitting hard enough nor do they have enough wounds. Finally, your general will rarely live to rez a unit. You’re trying to do a little too much and end up doing nothing well. And you’re way too many drops which defeats the object of paying for the largely overcosted Deathmarch and the models it makes you buy.

Well I got excited when I saw Deathmarch and wanted an aggressive army that took the enemy by surprise. 

I play Ironjawz a lot and my favorite Battalion is the Bloodtoof Battalion. 

Between the mandatory Ironfist Battalion included it provides anywhere from +4 to +6 (Allegiance Trait +1, Bloodtoof +1, Cogs +2 and Ardboys get +2) Charge rolls and Mighty Destroyers has a chance for you to move your full movement (4 to 12” inches... Ardboys to Maw-Krusha) in the hero phase, plus the Battalion allows another D6” movement plus regular movement, which can very quickly cover the board and people don’t seem to expect how quickly you can move like this. 

So I decided to adopt the same Strategy with Death, getting Skeletons anywhere from 10 to 13” of movement (4” for Deathmarch, 4” normal 2” from Cogs and possibly 3” from Sacrosanct Mastery of Death) which extends out to Black Knights and Grave Guard. 

We cannot use Waaagh! Multiple times and it doesn’t effect all of our units in range so I decided on a regular vampire lord and wight King for at least +2 attacks.

That brings 10 Grave Guard to 40 attacks, Black Knights 80 (assuming their mounts get attacks too? 2+2 = 4 x 2 = 8 x 10 = 80) if they don’t it’s still 60. Then there’s Vanhel’s Danse Macabre Which doubles that amount. 

I figure between Deathly Invocations, Graveyard placement and my own experience (limited as it is) it’s not difficult to keep them at maximum strength for maximum effect. 

The second reason for a Vampire Lord is Vile Transference, to put heals on my General. That’s the main reason for my Mortis Engine as well: making Cogs immediately easier to cast turn 1, making BT easier to cast and the emergency heal + damage. 

I knew I needed a way to keep my 5 wounds general alive so I thought of ways to protect him including artifacts and healing. 

Basically I tried to mirror Ironjawz by just getting a bunch of attacks on my Grave Guard and Black Knights and having a big blob of skeletons as extra gravy whilst having solid spell support (both with multiple casters and +1’s to cast) and a strong back line to defend home base since many maps have a home objective to hold. 

Were my thoughts flawed in my list building? 

To really effectively “copy” my Ironjawz would be something like 

VLoZD = MBOMK in terms of killing power, plus re-rolling 1’s is good. 

Necromancer = Weirdknob (except way better because he actually has valueable magic and abilities) 

Wight King and Vampire Lord would be roughly like taking 2 Warchanters. 

Take Grand Host of Nagash, Lord of Nagashizzar to bake in another +1 attack to simulate the Waaagh and to make Grave Guard battleline since 3 is mandatory and take those to equate Brutes, Black Knights to equate Gore Gruntas and Skeletons to somewhat equate Ardboys. 

Where it breaks down is that all IJ units are battleline and any combination can be taken for Ironfist whereas 3 units of skeletons are mandatory. 

Cogs feels more or less mandatory. Mortis Engine isn’t really. The other stuff isn’t really. 

 

[Honk]

Soooo, the goal was to run the min squads to tap objectives, while the distraction VloZd and bk caused mayhem, till the 30 guards strong heavy blender hacked everything to pieces?! 

Is that the rough sketching for the tactically impaired?! And how did you keep your king alive for round 2? The whole battalion resolves around him being (wholly) within 12“/9“...

[ianob]

8 hours ago, Honk said:

Soooo, the goal was to run the min squads to tap objectives, while the distraction VloZd and bk caused mayhem, till the 30 guards strong heavy blender hacked everything to pieces?! 

Is that the rough sketching for the tactically impaired?! And how did you keep your king alive for round 2? The whole battalion resolves around him being (wholly) within 12“/9“...

The Black Knights average 70 damage on the charge, twice. 95 if I get the wound triumph. They’re not so much a distraction as a giant hammer that leaves a wall in place afterwards. And if thy die and get summoned back, they do it again.

GG and the Dragon then do whatever. Mop up, fight, take objectives, etc. The dragon actually doesn’t engage most of the time - his job is to live, pick off flankers, and rez whatever dies. He spent most Games either a) hiding or b) using his cloak to take scary monsters out of the game.

The WK I played very aggressively and throwaway; he only needed to live for he initial move. He then followed the knights to provide a debuff and deathless minion aura, or went to objective sit with some skeletons, etc. A 2+ save is surprisingly tough and it’s surprising how often he doesn’t get targeted (because he is so bad, really)

[Ravinsild]

Do Lord of Nagashizzar, Vampire Lord’s CA and Wight King CA give the Black Knight mounts extra attacks too? 

Because at that point just 5 Black Knights are putting out 50 attacks on the charge doing 25 attacks for 3/3/-/2 then 25 for 4/4/-/1 Which isn’t awful all things considered. It’s just 5 guys. More is better ofc but VHD is 100 attacks 50/50 as above. 5 guys!!!

[ianob]

6 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Do Lord of Nagashizzar, Vampire Lord’s CA and Wight King CA give the Black Knight mounts extra attacks too? 

Because at that point just 5 Black Knights are putting out 50 attacks on the charge doing 25 attacks for 3/3/-/2 then 25 for 4/4/-/1 Which isn’t awful all things considered. It’s just 5 guys. More is better ofc but VHD is 100 attacks 50/50 as above. 5 guys!!!

Yes they all do. But the whole thing is significantly less good without an extra 3” move and +1 to cast vanhels.

[Ravinsild]

9 minutes ago, ianob said:

Yes they all do. But the whole thing is significantly less good without an extra 3” move and +1 to cast vanhels.

Which is gained via Legion of Sacrament, right? 

Do you think LoS is the best Legion to take advantage of the Deathmarch? 

I basically asked in the Noobranomicon thread which Legion I should bring to bear against a dispossessed player in a game I’ve got this Saturday. 

[deynon]

I like your idea about improving the grave guard and interesting your amount of black knight. Uaually I play units about 10 man (15 man would not be able to be all avalaible to combat and I prefer an extra unit of black knight/nexwraith to improve)

I would not be able to play such variant of the list cause it has too few units.

 

 

[Tropical Ghost General]

@ianob how is the cloak being played in competitive games at the moment, as I have come across various ways of it being used, and tbh in my local group it's not hyper competitive, but it would be good to know for future games.

So as an example scenario 1, 2 units of grims charge a maw-krusha with the cloak. While at the other end of the table a unit of rasps has charge a unit of ardboyz. I know that its a case that the grims can't attack until the maw-krusha has, so it would have to go - rasps, ardboys, maw-krusha, grims 1, grims 2. Is this correct?

And in example scenario 2, 2 units of grims charge a maw-krusha, the grims can't attack until the maw-krusha does, so it would go - maw-krusha, grims 1, grims 2. Is this also correct?

Is there anything that I'm missing about how the mechanics of the cloak works?

[deynon]

can't attack is diffferent from can't activate. If you have to activate a unit against the cloak and the cloak has not attacked yer you activate but can't atrack the cloak. If you rngage the cloak and another hnit you can only attack the otherunit but not touch the cloak.

 

The activation of the units are the same, simply it's like the cloak is invunerable till the cloak utself attack, all in the middle is lost against him

[Tropical Ghost General]

so basically in the second scenario, it would go - grims 1 (can't attack), maw-krusha, grims 2. Is that correct?

[deynon]

25 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

so basically in the second scenario, it would go - grims 1 (can't attack), maw-krusha, grims 2. Is that correct?

if they are the only unts in combat in all the field and it has been the maw charged, yes

[Tropical Ghost General]

@deynon thanks for helping with that. That's really gross and not at all broken ?. Might have to figure out if any of my ghosts will benefit from it.

[Tropical Ghost General]

@deynon so does the cloak nullify the 10+ charge free attack that ghosts have as well? I don't have my book to hand, so can't check the wording.

[deynon]

14 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

@deynon thanks for helping with that. That's really gross and not at all broken ?. Might have to figure out if any of my ghosts will benefit from it.

Not worry,  I understand.I had to do some brinstorming with other players too when I discovered such object to be sure I didn't miss something^^

[deynon]

1 minute ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

@deynon so does the cloak nullify the 10+ charge free attack that ghosts have as well? I don't have my book to hand, so can't check the wording.

wave of terrors: "it can fight immediately after you complete the charge move

charge phase: once all the models in one unit have made their charge moves, you can pick another eligible unit to make a charge attempt

doppelganger cloak: the bearer cannot be chosen as a target of an attack with an enemy melee weapon  unless the bearer  has made any attacks erlier in the same phase

 

So the wave of terrors doesn't work. Cause the cloak doesn't specify the phase it apply to, so it works in every phase, in this case both charge phase and combat phase.  What counts are the melee weapons. The cloak can't attack back, but cant be attacked.

[Tropical Ghost General]

?

[Tropical Ghost General]

At least my ghost can take it with their 5 wound, 6 max damage heroes ?

[deynon]

11 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

?

it could have been worse. Anyway to nullify it in CaC you need only more units.

10 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

At least my ghost can take it with their 5 wound, 6 max damage heroes ?

even better, you can block models like dragon zomvies, and even big units and make them lose their craziness. But you have to pay quite particular attention in choosing how to engage and be engaged. Decide the order  to activate units it's tricky then and you have to pay attention to it, more than usual.

[Tropical Ghost General]

A big unit of 40 rasps will be more than it can get through in a turn. Your right, just tarpit it and concentrate on the rest of their army.

[ianob]

5 hours ago, deynon said:

I like your idea about improving the grave guard and interesting your amount of black knight. Uaually I play units about 10 man (15 man would not be able to be all avalaible to combat and I prefer an extra unit of black knight/nexwraith to improve)

I would not be able to play such variant of the list cause it has too few units.

This is why you max out the movement of the Black Knights. Proper positioning should get them all into combat most of the time. In many cases you will spread them out into multiple enemy units, because 7-8 of them will wipe out a 30-40 man enemy unit no problem and you dont want to overkill stuff.

Also if you do only get 12-13 into combat on occasion, you have a couple of ablative guys to take off before you Danse and attack again, so you still have max guys in combat.

[Kevlar1972]

The cloak doesn't seem too bad if you are playing MSU.  Just charge it with a unit of 10 bloodreavers along with your wrathmongers.  Just graze the base with one reaver, activate them, then he gets squished by himself plus tje wrathmongers! 

[deynon]

2 minutes ago, ianob said:

This is why you max out the movement of the Black Knights. Proper positioning should get them all into combat most of the time. In many cases you will spread them out into multiple enemy units, because 7-8 of them will wipe out a 30-40 man enemy unit no problem and you dont want to overkill stuff.

Also if you do only get 12-13 into combat on occasion, you have a couple of ablative guys to take off before you Danse and attack again, so you still have max guys in combat.

30-40 man enemy unit? ause it depends by the opponent units with the black knights? Only if you make them being supported by everything in your army and even then you are risking quite a lot.

Maybe are my opponent, but it's almost impossible to even bring 10 all together to battle at the same time, not to talk about 15.

1 minute ago, Kevlar1972 said:

The cloak doesn't seem too bad if you are playing MSU.  Just charge it with a unit of 10 bloodreavers along with your wrathmongers.  Just graze the base with one reaver, activate them, then he gets squished by himself plus tje wrathmongers! 

Not so easy, and at the same time so easy, depending by the amount of units in combat.