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Hey all

so I have been busy building and test painting.

I changed my list slightly 

1 x king

1 x enchantress 

1 x damsel

1 x free guild gen

16 x KotR

10 x free guild sword and shield 

10 x free guild sword and shield 

10 x grail knights 

10 x free guild greatswords 

10 x free guild greatswords 

 

ive done some kit bashing 

lots to do still but slowly but surely

 

4CEBC9DB-5550-4D1D-A175-0B383A432227.jpeg.24b74dabaf754e23430e2a34d4cd3dab.jpeg4DAD2432-1B92-42E8-827F-8D8DC97FC269.jpeg.5f99cf51fa59fed28ae8bcb0599a9b52.jpeg451BE903-719C-4AA8-82A6-FE6900F1B891.jpeg.022ec6913f2a9c6c21c66d3d294e4621.jpeg

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Hello there! I have been a Bretonnia fan since I started collecting the army as a 10-year-old back 18 years ago. Sadly, after actually having been included in the first General’s Handbook, they h

As requested here is the images of my comissioned army of Bretonnia:   The Full 2000 pts Army:       The King:       The Enchantress:

Hey all so I have been busy building and test painting. I changed my list slightly  1 x king 1 x enchantress  1 x damsel 1 x free guild gen 16 x KotR 10 x free

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8 hours ago, oscisi said:

@ilaxu 'Minute' now I feel the need for a Twitter/instagram account dedicated to Bretonnian memes :P

Regarding your casters: I have an Enchantress (Morgiana le Fay, to be exact) for sale for 26 euros. But being in Australia you would probably pay even more for the shipping...

Bretonnian memes would be quite amusing...

Yea right now I am effectively broke as I'm going on a two week holiday four weeks from now so all spare funds are being pooled for that. Once I'm back from that holiday though then I'll probably start hunting for parts. I have half a mind to see if I can turn a unit of Sisters of the Thorn into Damsels/Enchantresses for the Bretonnians tbh. It would honestly be considerably cheaper than hunting down the 4-5 models individually and with a bit of kit bashing it might be doable.

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So I'm playing around with some Freeguild-Bretonnia combo lists atm because having some decent infantry screens could be a real life saver. So far I've come up with this as a possible way to include a ranged skirmish screen for the army. 

King On Hippogryph -Legendary Fighter, Sword of Judgement
Freeguild General on Steed - Lance & Shield
Enchantress - Unicorn
Damsel - Pegasi
Archmage - Steed
10 Freeguild Archers - Hunter
10 Freeguild Archers - Hunter
10 Freeguild Archers - Hunter
10 Grail Knights - Banner & Trumpeter
16 Knights of the Realm - Gallant, Banner & Trumpeter
Total Points: 1,960

So, Pro's v Con's as far as I can tell. Well, we have a large screen that can push up quite far ahead and get some decently accurate volleys off in the early game, especially against slow opponents. However as they aren't Bretonnian they will likely take battleshock loses so their main purpose is to slow the enemy so that the Knights can get the charge. This list is also somewhat limited with damage output, as it only has 3-4 units that are properly melee capable, two of which being the King and General. 

Basically it comes down to, is it worth trading the unit of 8 Knights Errant, the Amber Battlemage and the 16 Men-At-Arms for 30 Archers and a Mounted Hero? There are alternatives of course. For example, dropping the Freeguild General in place of the Amber Battlemage allows for the Knights to perform slightly better, albeit weakening the ranged power of the archers. Or just dropping one of the archer units instead. 

Or for a more drastic change, dropping the King altogether and replacing him with a Lord with the same gear to free up another 260 points to spend on extra units. Possible those 8 Knights Errant and the Amber Battlemage? Still, losing the Battleshock immunity for the Bretonnians hurts. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reason why I'm going over this is because of the discussions from the last few days have been setting the cogs in the back of my head spinning quite a lot. Because point for point, the Freeguild Infantry are superior to their Bretonnian counterparts when it comes to basic damage output and basic durability. But when you also factor in the fact that Freeguild units don't gain benefits from a lot of Bretonnian abilities and spells then it makes the decisions a bit tougher. Is it worth spending 200-400 points on models that don't work with the synergy of the Bretonnians (which is what gives them a fighting chance 80% of the time) to get some quality improvements for aspects of the army, or is it better to go puritan to gain the best use of the Synergy of Bretonnia (Looking at that battleshock immunity...)

I feel like making use of Free Guild units as the infantry could be useful depending on how you use them. So what does everyone else have in mind with their inclusion? How would you use them? 

 

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So with the new mercenaries coming in the generals handbook I will finally be able to properly do my Shyish-themed bretonnians with some undead friends to say hello (and give me some board control) so I'm looking forward to that! 

I'm currently toying with the following idea for a 1000 point list (I've now finally started stripping my bret knights I have actually finally started this project! Hopefully may even make up some conversions later tonight)

Alleigance: Order - Hammerhals
Realm: Shyish

-Enchantress: 160 - Inspiring (can't remember the generic order traits off the top of my head but this seems good for bravery esque helping), Wraithbow (I really want to a model a hero firing a spectral bow off the back of a horse tbh, and I'm not too fussed about being competitive)

-Damsel: 100 (I had 100 points spare at the end)

-Knights of the realm x16: 440 (Pretty decent cavalry and a good main battleline)

-Grail Knights x5: 180 (Speaks for itself. Conversion wise planning to mount these boys on skeletal horses to make them stand out, and make a squad leader using the vampire dragon rider body with the grail to make him really stand out. Don't think I'll have enough bits for more than 5 alas so will have to at some point source more bodies if I can when I have money)

-Men at arms x16: 120 (Needed another cheap battleline, the men at arms models I made into zombies will fit nicely in a shyish themed army!)

Points:  1000/1000

Colour scheme I'm planning to make use of a lot of black and red for their new undead status, with possibly blood tears coming from the helmet eye-slits. 

 

I've also toyed with the idea of using some freeguild units in the bigger lists as I'm not sure I'll ever have enough pure bretonnians but it's nice to go as much bret as possible really. Thankfully mercenaries will help me fill out my points.

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3 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

So with the new mercenaries coming in the generals handbook I will finally be able to properly do my Shyish-themed bretonnians with some undead friends to say hello (and give me some board control) so I'm looking forward to that! 

I'm currently toying with the following idea for a 1000 point list (I've now finally started stripping my bret knights I have actually finally started this project! Hopefully may even make up some conversions later tonight)

Alleigance: Order - Hammerhals
Realm: Shyish

-Enchantress: 160 - Inspiring (can't remember the generic order traits off the top of my head but this seems good for bravery esque helping), Wraithbow (I really want to a model a hero firing a spectral bow off the back of a horse tbh, and I'm not too fussed about being competitive)

-Damsel: 100 (I had 100 points spare at the end)

-Knights of the realm x16: 440 (Pretty decent cavalry and a good main battleline)

-Grail Knights x5: 180 (Speaks for itself. Conversion wise planning to mount these boys on skeletal horses to make them stand out, and make a squad leader using the vampire dragon rider body with the grail to make him really stand out. Don't think I'll have enough bits for more than 5 alas so will have to at some point source more bodies if I can when I have money)

-Men at arms x16: 120 (Needed another cheap battleline, the men at arms models I made into zombies will fit nicely in a shyish themed army!)

Points: 

Colour scheme I'm planning to make use of a lot of black and red for their new undead status, with possibly blood tears coming from the helmet eye-slits. 

 

I've also toyed with the idea of using some freeguild units in the bigger lists as I'm not sure I'll ever have enough pure bretonnians but it's nice to go as much bret as possible really. Thankfully mercenaries will help me fill out my points.

So I'm reading this as Mousillon Re-Reborn...

Edited by ilaxu 'Minute'
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5 minutes ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

So I'm reading this as Mousillon Re-Reborn...

I've just had to google to read into Mousillon as alas my time with fantasy started with AoS... I now really want to do them on swampy bases XD And also to now paint them more black than red to fit with Mousillon better.

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1 minute ago, Lightbox said:

I've just had to google to read into Mousillon as alas my time with fantasy started with AoS... I now really want to do them on swampy bases XD And also to now paint them more black than red to fit with Mousillon better.

Yea, the Undead Bretonnians are quite fun. Personally I would LOVE to do a Mousillon army but I'd end up wanting to do some many complicated conversions that the price would be astronomical... 

Blood Knights for Grail Knights,
Hexwraith conversions for Questing Knights,
Black Knight for Knights of the Realm,
Nehekharan Cavalry for Yeomen,
Skeletons/Zombies for Peasants,
Ghouls for Grail Pilgrims...

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21 minutes ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

Yea, the Undead Bretonnians are quite fun. Personally I would LOVE to do a Mousillon army but I'd end up wanting to do some many complicated conversions that the price would be astronomical... 

Blood Knights for Grail Knights,
Hexwraith conversions for Questing Knights,
Black Knight for Knights of the Realm,
Nehekharan Cavalry for Yeomen,
Skeletons/Zombies for Peasants,
Ghouls for Grail Pilgrims...

Hexwraiths as a questing knight basis? Interesting, alternatively give them robed legs and I could see them making good battle pilgrims as they'd have the robed fanatic look down already (May have to do that with my spares)

I have considered also sticking spare knight errant helmets on black knights for making some knight errants that look appropriately different from my knights of the realm.

Honestly I want so much for vampires and blood knights to get some plastic sculpts and if they did they'd be great to use for mousillon too! Well there's at least 1 new death army coming this year so hopefully that will give me more bits to work with for expanding my shyishian themes.

 

I also want to look at seeing if I can work out how to make a path to glory table for bretonnians, I know that it's roughly 1 PTG pick per 100 points (rounding to closest hundred) and you start with 5 picks minus the cost for the general (Explained here, second to last post:)

For upgrade tables I'd probably pilfer mostly from the free cities ones and other thematic looking things from other PtG lists and do name / flavour changes to make them thematic.

I think the unit tables would probably look like:

General:
-King on Hippogryph - 1 pick
-Sacred Protector - 3 picks
-Enchantress - 3 picks
-Bretonnian Lord - 4 picks
-Damsel - 4 picks
-Noble Champion - 4 picks
-Noble Standard bearer - 4 picks
 

Units: (1 pick)
-16 Men at arms
-6 Battle Pilgrims
-5x Mounted Yeoman

Elite units: (2 picks or 1 pick & 1 glory point)
-8 Knights errant
-8 Knights of the realm
-16 Peasant Bowmen
-3 Pegasus Knights
-5 Questing Knights
-5 Grail Knights
-1 Field Trebuchet

Heroes: (1 pick)
-Noble Champion
-Noble Standard Bearer
-Damsel
-Bretonnian Lord

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18 minutes ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

I must admit I know nothing about Path to Glory. What is it?

It's a game style that started in the battletomes for AoS, it's basically where you start with a general and usually only a small handful of units and build up this 'warband' as you go. After games you earn glory points and picks which can be spent on extra units or upgrades for heroes/units (randomly rolled on 1 or 2d6 with a chance of being negative on a double 1! for the general at least) It usually forms a small campaign sort of thing with the winner being the one who achieves 10 glory points first and then wins a game (though you could always set alternative win parameters). GW did a path to glory booklet a couple of years back with updated tables for all armies (newer battletomes have more recent updates for their army) and full rules for a campaign. It's designed more as a fun narrative style of gaming instead of competitive and you can either pick your units or randomly roll them for more fun.

I've also just noticed on my table the elites section has more than 6 rolls which makes it a big nuisance, and splitting the 4 heroes into a d6 roll would be a pain, unless I combine the two nobles into one roll where you pick either/or. I could split the peasant bowmen & trebuchet into their own table along with a 32 men at arms option as a peasant elites and the other table being nobility elites. 

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On 6/10/2019 at 3:57 AM, Fullbret said:

What top tier endless spells help bretonnia out?

The Chronomantic Cogs are priceless. I always take them. For damage output (or just adding the last odd points to your list) the Geminids are decent. For denying the enemy mobility/blocking/defending objectives you have the Soulsnare Shackles (which I often take for my lists since I play a mobility and objective snatching play style, never going for damage output) and the prismatic palisade. 

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4 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

King On Hippogryph -Legendary Fighter, Sword of Judgement
Freeguild General on Steed - Lance & Shield
Enchantress - Unicorn
Damsel - Pegasi
Archmage - Steed
10 Freeguild Archers - Hunter
10 Freeguild Archers - Hunter
10 Freeguild Archers - Hunter
10 Grail Knights - Banner & Trumpeter
16 Knights of the Realm - Gallant, Banner & Trumpeter
Total Points: 1,960

Funny, I came up with the same list except, that I replaced the unit of 16 Knights of the Realm with 3 units of 3 Demigryph Knights which can be buffed by the Freeguild General once they are in combat. I don't see a problem with Bravery. Archers are chaff anyway and are supposed to die or flee. Grails Knights won't flee as long as the King is alive. Demigryph Knights are only 3 models and their standard rule says that they only have to test for battleshock when 2 or more die, so you will have only 1 left anyway.

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10 minutes ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

Funny, I came up with the same list except, that I replaced the unit of 16 Knights of the Realm with 3 units of 3 Demigryph Knights which can be buffed by the Freeguild General once they are in combat. I don't see a problem with Bravery. Archers are chaff anyway and are supposed to die or flee. Grails Knights won't flee as long as the King is alive. Demigryph Knights are only 3 models and their standard rule says that they only have to test for battleshock when 2 or more die, so you will have only 1 left anyway.

That actually seems like a really competitive option, but sadly I lack the models to go with that. The lists I've been designing have been based around what I already own with the exception of the Spellcasters which I'm planning to hunt down after my holiday.

Also, after looking at the Demigryph Knight stat lines for their price cost I feel like the Bretonnians are on an even shorter end of the stick than I initially thought.

 

 

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2 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

On a different note, this was mentioned today/yesterday. 

Generals Handbook Mercenary Companies

Some possible options for Bretonnian armies... Hello Mousillon Blood Knights and Skeletons...

Don't like the lose of a CP though...

Honestly I don't feel like I'll use much CP with brets so I'm not too worried on that side. Though would be nice if we had a formation to bolster the CP reserves a bit. Alternatively just build 50 points short if you really need the extra cp you lose.

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18 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

Honestly I don't feel like I'll use much CP with brets so I'm not too worried on that side. Though would be nice if we had a formation to bolster the CP reserves a bit. Alternatively just build 50 points short if you really need the extra cp you lose.

The lords +1 to hit on charge is a CP ability, so you'll usually want some spare for that. But if you aren't going for a one turn rush then it should be manageable. 

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3 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

Also, after looking at the Demigryph Knight stat lines for their price cost I feel like the Bretonnians are on an even shorter end of the stick than I initially thought.

Offensive comparison:

16 Knights of the Realm do 7.97 damage on average against targets with save 4+ with their melee attacks (including horses). When charging the average damage increases to 13.48 against targets with save 4+. A regular game has 5 rounds, 5 turns for each player. They can only charge in your own turn, so let's assume they charged at 20% of the turns in a game. So in a whole battle they would possibly deal 4 * 7.97 + 13.48 = 45.36 damage. Their points cost is 440 for a unit of 16 so you pay 9.70 points per damage they do.

3 Demigryph Knights with Lance and Sword do 3.38 damage on average against targets with save 4+ with their melee attacks (including demigryphs). When charging the average damage increases to 4.83 against targets with save 4+. So in a whole battle they would possibly deal 4 * 3.38 + 4.83 = 18.35 damage. Their points cost is 140 for a unit of 3 so you pay only 7.62 points per damage they do. So damagewise they perform 27% better than Knights of the Realm compared to their points.


Defensive comparison:

Knights of the Realm have 2 wounds and a 4+ save. They can reroll 1s on the save when they charge. So a single Knight of the Realm has 4.00 effective wounds when saving wounds from regular attacks with no rend. This increases to 4.80 wounds on the charge. Let's assume the same as above, so a whole unit of 16 has 64.00 effective wounds and 76.80 wounds on the charge, which I combine to (4 * 64.00 + 76.80) / 5 = 66.56 effective wounds. Their points cost is 440 for a unit of 16 so you pay 6.61 points per effective wound the unit has.

Demigryph Knights have 4 wounds and a 4+ save. They reroll 1s on the save at any time, not only when they charge. So a single Demigryph Knight has 9.60 effective wounds when saving wounds from regular attacks with no rend. The whole unit of 3 has 3 * 9.60 = 28.80 effective wounds. Their points cost is 140 for a unit of 3 so you pay only 4.81 points per effective wound the unit has. This makes them 36% more durable than Knights of the Realm compared to their points.

 

Edited by Duke of Gisoreux
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1 hour ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

The lords +1 to hit on charge is a CP ability, so you'll usually want some spare for that. But if you aren't going for a one turn rush then it should be manageable. 

Ahhh that makes sense! But yeah I suppose it all depends on how you plan to run the armies etc. 

 

Probably also worth noting that whilst they may wield cowardly guns that hurt our chivalric theme getting outriders/pistoliers as mercenaries (or just plain regular units with grand alliance order) gives us a potential good speedy and fairly cheap extra horsey unit we can send after objectives whilst our knights of the realm deal with the heavy lifting. But I'm looking forward to skellies & zombies for sure just to give extra cheap bodies for objectives / board coverage. Blood knights alternatively will give a nice alternative to grail knights as a powerful heavy cavalry.

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12 minutes ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

Offensive comparison:

16 Knights of the Realm do 7.97 damage on average against targets with save 4+ with their melee attacks (including horses). When charging the average damage increases to 13.48 against targets with save 4+. A regular game has 5 rounds, 5 turns for each player. They can only charge in your own turn, so let's assume they charged at 20% of the turns in a game. So in a whole battle they would possibly deal 4 * 7.97 + 13.48 = 45.36 damage. Their points cost is 440 for a unit of 16 so you pay 9.70 points per damage they do.

3 Demigryph Knights with Lance and Sword do 3.38 damage on average against targets with save 4+ with their melee attacks (including demigryphs). When charging the average damage increases to 4.83 against targets with save 4+. So in a whole battle they would possibly deal 4 * 3.38 + 4.83 = 18.35 damage. Their points cost is 140 for a unit of 3 so you pay only 7.62 points per damage they do. So damagewise they perform 27% better than Knights of the Realm compared to their points.


Defensive comparison:

Knights of the Realm have 2 wounds and a 4+ save. They can reroll 1s on the save when they charge. So a single Knight of the Realm has 4.00 effective wounds when saving wounds from regular attacks with no rend. This increases to 4.80 wounds on the charge. Let's assume the same as above, so a whole unit of 16 has 64.00 effective wounds and 76.80 wounds on the charge, which I combine to (4 * 64.00 + 76.80) / 5 = 66.56 effective wounds. Their points cost is 440 for a unit of 16 so you pay 6.61 points per effective wound the unit has.

Demigryph Knights have 4 wounds and a 4+ save. They reroll 1s on the save at any time, not only when they charge. So a single Demigryph Knight has 9.60 effective wounds when saving wounds from regular attacks with no rend. The whole unit of 3 has 3 * 9.60 = 28.80 effective wounds. Their points cost is 140 for a unit of 3 so you pay only 4.81 points per effective wound the unit has. This makes them 36% more durable than Knights of the Realm compared to their points.

 

You know, on the one hand I have to praise you for doing the mathematics behind that, and on the other I have to scold myself for not doing it. Damn it I'll have to start number crunching too.

2 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

Ahhh that makes sense! But yeah I suppose it all depends on how you plan to run the armies etc. 

 

Probably also worth noting that whilst they may wield cowardly guns that hurt our chivalric theme getting outriders/pistoliers as mercenaries (or just plain regular units with grand alliance order) gives us a potential good speedy and fairly cheap extra horsey unit we can send after objectives whilst our knights of the realm deal with the heavy lifting. But I'm looking forward to skellies & zombies for sure just to give extra cheap bodies for objectives / board coverage. Blood knights alternatively will give a nice alternative to grail knights as a powerful heavy cavalry.

Personally I think the two mercenary options that will suit Bretonnians are the Mousillon options, that being the Blood Knights & Necromancer Mob.

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11 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

I have half a mind to see if I can turn a unit of Sisters of the Thorn into Damsels/Enchantresses for the Bretonnians tbh. It would honestly be considerably cheaper than hunting down the 4-5 models individually and with a bit of kit bashing it might be doable.

That’s a clever idea! The forest theme goes well with the Enchantress so it should definitely be doable. Some kit bashing will of course be needed and I would, as a matter of fact, not just cut off the antlers of the mounts but actually change the heads into horse heads completely (and then add the unicorn horn). Otherwise I think it might be hard to sell the idea that the mount is a unicorn. But beyond that I don’t see too many changes that are needed. 

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5 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

You know, on the one hand I have to praise you for doing the mathematics behind that, and on the other I have to scold myself for not doing it. Damn it I'll have to start number crunching too.

Personally I think the two mercenary options that will suit Bretonnians are the Mousillon options, that being the Blood Knights & Necromancer Mob.

You mean painting fleur de lys on ogres and giants won't make them chivalrous and noble? Darn... 

I do agree though. Those two are perfect for mousillon brets :)

 

I also realised I already have the perfect stand in model for a shyishian king on (undead) hippogryph

IMG_20190611_211225.jpg

IMG_20190611_211238.jpg

 

EDIT:

Begun work on this project with my grail knights and will be posting future project updates on my blog!

 

Edited by Lightbox
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10 hours ago, oscisi said:

The Chronomantic Cogs are priceless. I always take them. For damage output (or just adding the last odd points to your list) the Geminids are decent. For denying the enemy mobility/blocking/defending objectives you have the Soulsnare Shackles (which I often take for my lists since I play a mobility and objective snatching play style, never going for damage output) and the prismatic palisade. 

Hmmm, might rework my list then.

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1 hour ago, Fullbret said:

Hmmm, might rework my list then.

If I had a list at 1940 points I would definitely take the cogs over the extra command point. If you use them conservatively (i.e. to slow down time) you keep your caster alive for longer (which is super important) and get an extra spell.  But the more interesting part is when you gamble and speed up time. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least two games that I played as Bretonnia where I won entirely thanks to the extra four inches taking me to where I needed to be. See, for example, this battle report: 

 

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