AoS 2 - Bretonnia Discussion

[Ghoooouls]

5 hours ago, Grdaat said:

I'll come back after I play a game with it, I figure it should help since that sort of setup puts out so much damage, it kills petrifex elite Nagash in two rounds of shooting, same with Archaon, same with Teclis, and same with any other super unit you can think of.

Will be interesting to know how the cannons perform. The bonus of trebs is they can shoot without line of sight and automatically hit units with more than 6 models, I think the cannons definitely will be good too but maybe fit a different role like you say with character shooting.

[Grdaat]

2 hours ago, Ghoooouls said:

Will be interesting to know how the cannons perform. The bonus of trebs is they can shoot without line of sight and automatically hit units with more than 6 models, I think the cannons definitely will be good too but maybe fit a different role like you say with character shooting.

Trebuchets are so much worse than cannons, they're over 50% more points than the cannon, have a worse wound roll and can't re-roll the damage (not to mention they have a minimum firing distance). For the same cost as 3 Trebuchets you can get 4 Cannons and a Cogsmith, plus 40 more points of stuff. The cannons heavily outperform the Trebuchets because of this, even though the Trebuchets can automatically hit.

[Ghoooouls]

3 hours ago, Grdaat said:

Trebuchets are so much worse than cannons, they're over 50% more points than the cannon, have a worse wound roll and can't re-roll the damage (not to mention they have a minimum firing distance). For the same cost as 3 Trebuchets you can get 4 Cannons and a Cogsmith, plus 40 more points of stuff. The cannons heavily outperform the Trebuchets because of this, even though the Trebuchets can automatically hit.

I wouldn't go as far as saying 'so much worse'. They're different for sure and both have their pros and cons, I've seen them used to great success many times, although usually only 1 or 2 in an army.

 

They have much longer range than cannons, and the auto hitting larger units means they have a 100% hit rate compared to 50% chance for normal shots (like the cannons before buffs). For instance, scroll vs scroll trebuchets on average do more damage than cannons against units they auto-hit. Cannons have a 43% chance do to 0 wounds to a unit with a 4+ save whereas trebs only have a 20% chance to do 0 and a higher chance to do more than that, meaning you're dishing out damage way more consecutively.

 

Obviously with buffs, rerolls and the likes this all changes and it looks like you've planned that well, but against certain armies I would 100% prefer a treb with their 12 inch extra range and auto hitting units as well as being much more thematic, but for 4x artillery like you say trebs way too expensive.

 

You've clearly based your army around cannons which sound like they would be great which is why I would like to hear how they do, just not sure how well brets will do focussing on lots of artillery, with not much to defend other than mediocre men at arms.

 

Like I say, entirely situational and all in the list building, but against horde armies I would go with a treb all day, theres a lot of very fast ambushing armies out there with massive ranged potential too, and if they kill your relatively easy to kill cogsmith and lord ord, your 4 cannons are suddenly much less effective, in fact hitting on average the same as just 2 trebuchets vs larger units and you've sunk close to 1000 points into 4 shooting units that will hit 50% of the time and still have very random damage output.

 

The lower range also means enemy ranged things are more likely to connect and your threat bubble is smaller. Come up against nagash like you mention and he can portal + bolt your cannons down in one turn, or at least make them next to useless with no crew. Once the cannons are wounded or dead its game over, nothing else in your army poses any threat to something like nagash, if he has immortis guard and gets his spells up you will end up doing very little. Putting all your eggs in one basket works when it's something incredibly versatile like Nagash, but 4 artillery units I'm not so sure.

 

Whereas for similar points you bring more variety, a single treb for the threat at massive range coupled with some hard hitting units like grails and enchantress.

 

With all that said it comes back to list building and your list works great for cannons, my worry would be how easy it is for certain armies to kill your main heroes and then all you're left with is a but ton of men at arms and some cannons. You have no mortal wound protection and no protection against magic to boot (bar the king). 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Ghoooouls

[Grdaat]

5 hours ago, Ghoooouls said:

I wouldn't go as far as saying 'so much worse'. They're different for sure and both have their pros and cons, I've seen them used to great success many times, although usually only 1 or 2 in an army.

 

They have much longer range than cannons, and the auto hitting larger units means they have a 100% hit rate compared to 50% chance for normal shots (like the cannons before buffs). For instance, scroll vs scroll trebuchets on average do more damage than cannons against units they auto-hit. Cannons have a 43% chance do to 0 wounds to a unit with a 4+ save whereas trebs only have a 20% chance to do 0 and a higher chance to do more than that, meaning you're dishing out damage way more consecutively.

 

Obviously with buffs, rerolls and the likes this all changes and it looks like you've planned that well, but against certain armies I would 100% prefer a treb with their 12 inch extra range and auto hitting units as well as being much more thematic, but for 4x artillery like you say trebs way too expensive.

 

You've clearly based your army around cannons which sound like they would be great which is why I would like to hear how they do, just not sure how well brets will do focussing on lots of artillery, with not much to defend other than mediocre men at arms.

 

Like I say, entirely situational and all in the list building, but against horde armies I would go with a treb all day, theres a lot of very fast ambushing armies out there with massive ranged potential too, and if they kill your relatively easy to kill cogsmith and lord ord, your 4 cannons are suddenly much less effective, in fact hitting on average the same as just 2 trebuchets vs larger units and you've sunk close to 1000 points into 4 shooting units that will hit 50% of the time and still have very random damage output.

 

The lower range also means enemy ranged things are more likely to connect and your threat bubble is smaller. Come up against nagash like you mention and he can portal + bolt your cannons down in one turn, or at least make them next to useless with no crew. Once the cannons are wounded or dead its game over, nothing else in your army poses any threat to something like nagash, if he has immortis guard and gets his spells up you will end up doing very little. Putting all your eggs in one basket works when it's something incredibly versatile like Nagash, but 4 artillery units I'm not so sure.

 

Whereas for similar points you bring more variety, a single treb for the threat at massive range coupled with some hard hitting units like grails and enchantress.

 

With all that said it comes back to list building and your list works great for cannons, my worry would be how easy it is for certain armies to kill your main heroes and then all you're left with is a but ton of men at arms and some cannons. You have no mortal wound protection and no protection against magic to boot (bar the king). 

I've done the math on it, three auto-hitting Trebuchets against units with a 4+ save on average deal 11.6 wounds, whereas 4 cannons and a Cogsmith deal 18.7 (you can increase that to 22.2 wounds with a Lord Ordinator), that's a massive difference. Even 4 auto-hitting Trebuchets only cause 15.5 wounds, so by filling out your artillery slots with them they'll underporm compared to cannons (and cost 880 points vs 620, or 760 with the Lord Ordinator). Yes they have a longer range, but when the range gets over 30" you shouldn't be out of range anyway. If you'd like me to go over the math in more detail I will, but the end point is that Trebuchets are very over costed.

As for the rest of my army, I wouldn't call the Cogsmith easy to kill, anything that's a threat to him can get wiped by the Cannons, and even if they do reach me, they'll have to chew through 48 Men-at-arms who are immune to battleshock before they can get to the Cogsmith or the cannons. Even if I want that huge unit to move up, they'll still be forced to go through 32 wounds, and that's assuming the cannons couldn't get them first.

As for Nagash, correct me if I'm wrong but last I checked the portals could only be used once per phase, and even if he did get to do D3 MW with it, that's not enough to kill a cannon, and at absolute best he can take out a single cannon crew. If he doesn't get the 10+ (or 7+ for him) then not only does he fail to hurt me in any meaningful way, since cannons still fire twice with two crew, but he's now completely open to every one of my cannons. This is all assuming he gets the first turn, because otherwise I could just shoot him straight off the bat and bring him halfway down (or more than that if he isn't Petrifex). Even if he goes first, if I get a double turn, or if he doesn't move backwards, he'll die in the next phase. If he's with Immortis Guard I'm still not very bothered, the cannons make mincemeat of those types of targets and that's also more than half my opponent's points in two units. Even assuming a lot of Immortis Guard are sacrificed to save Nagash, I can kill him by drowning him in Men-at-arms by that point, or finish him off with the king, or win with objectives.

My protection against MW was just to bring more bodies, since the regular protection is very unreliable, and I've found there's little point to investing in magic unless you want to build your list around it. One bad magic roll will cost you the game, even in those cases, and it's so easy for your enemy to shut it down, either with gimmicks, their own wizards, or 4 cannons with a Cogsmith and Lord Ordinator pointed at them. This is one of the reasons I brought up Teclis earlier, regardless of which wizard(s) my opponent brings, I should be able to kill them.

 

[Ghoooouls]

28 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

I've done the math on it, three auto-hitting Trebuchets against units with a 4+ save on average deal 11.6 wounds, whereas 4 cannons and a Cogsmith deal 18.7 (you can increase that to 22.2 wounds with a Lord Ordinator), that's a massive difference. Even 4 auto-hitting Trebuchets only cause 15.5 wounds, so by filling out your artillery slots with them they'll underporm compared to cannons (and cost 880 points vs 620, or 760 with the Lord Ordinator). Yes they have a longer range, but when the range gets over 30" you shouldn't be out of range anyway. If you'd like me to go over the math in more detail I will, but the end point is that Trebuchets are very over costed.

As for the rest of my army, I wouldn't call the Cogsmith easy to kill, anything that's a threat to him can get wiped by the Cannons, and even if they do reach me, they'll have to chew through 48 Men-at-arms who are immune to battleshock before they can get to the Cogsmith or the cannons. Even if I want that huge unit to move up, they'll still be forced to go through 32 wounds, and that's assuming the cannons couldn't get them first.

As for Nagash, correct me if I'm wrong but last I checked the portals could only be used once per phase, and even if he did get to do D3 MW with it, that's not enough to kill a cannon, and at absolute best he can take out a single cannon crew. If he doesn't get the 10+ (or 7+ for him) then not only does he fail to hurt me in any meaningful way, since cannons still fire twice with two crew, but he's now completely open to every one of my cannons. This is all assuming he gets the first turn, because otherwise I could just shoot him straight off the bat and bring him halfway down (or more than that if he isn't Petrifex). Even if he goes first, if I get a double turn, or if he doesn't move backwards, he'll die in the next phase. If he's with Immortis Guard I'm still not very bothered, the cannons make mincemeat of those types of targets and that's also more than half my opponent's points in two units. Even assuming a lot of Immortis Guard are sacrificed to save Nagash, I can kill him by drowning him in Men-at-arms by that point, or finish him off with the king, or win with objectives.

My protection against MW was just to bring more bodies, since the regular protection is very unreliable, and I've found there's little point to investing in magic unless you want to build your list around it. One bad magic roll will cost you the game, even in those cases, and it's so easy for your enemy to shut it down, either with gimmicks, their own wizards, or 4 cannons with a Cogsmith and Lord Ordinator pointed at them. This is one of the reasons I brought up Teclis earlier, regardless of which wizard(s) my opponent brings, I should be able to kill them.

 

Theres a hell of a lot in the game that'll kill a 5 wound hero from range these days. New lumineth archers for instance 5+ mortal wounds at 30 inch range, pretty much any wizard in the game, sisters etc.

 

It's cool, I use the damage calculator that shows you the percentage chance of wounds after you enter the hit, wound and save characteristics with rerolls etc.

 

4 cannons have a 3% chance to do 0, 14% chance to do 3, 26% chance to do 9, 18% chance to do 12, 8% chance to do 15 and 2% to do 18. Of course this is all averages and doesn't include rerolling damage, but to me sinking 800 points into artillery that, on average, will do 9 wounds per turn may not be worth it considering it's the main damage output of the army.

 

4 auto hitting trebs have a 2% chance to do 3 wounds, a 7% chance to do 6 wounds, 17% to do 9, 26% to do 12, 26% to do 15, 16% to do 18, 6% to so 21 and 1% to do 24. Again all averages and not including the cannons reroll damage which can be better or worse than the original roll unless you only reroll 1s. So on average 4 trebs auto hitting will do 12-15 wounds and a higher chance to do more than that.

 

Kinda pointless discussion now though as you say 4x trebs is way too expensive for what they are. Personally I'd go with some wizards, handgunners or other decent shooting units and bring the soul scream bridge to teleport them turn 1 and nuke anything for a fraction of the cost. The bonus here is the units you teleport are cheap, dangerous and also act as a screen for counter attacking enemy charges with their stand and shoot ability annoying anyone that has to charge them.

 

Not trying to change your list or anything just offering some other ideas as I said before my main worry would be cannons/heroes dying and then your damage output is gone.

 

I think you may be underestimating nagash here too... with immortis in petrifex he currently can easily have 2+ rerollable armour followed by 2+ shrug onto the immortis who then themselves can have a 5+ FNP save and then another 6+ FNP save. If nagash rolls a 1 and takes the wound himself, he has 5++ 6++ and teleports anywhere on the board, he also heals 3 to himself and guard per turn not including spells. Yeah portal is 1x cast per turn but he can just hand of dust all your heroes whilst bolting the rest of your army.

 

Teclis on the other hand I agree with, his big weakness is lists like yours. Intriguing that you feel that way about magic though, it's a must in any game I've ever played to have at least one caster just for random mortal wound output, defense etc. The enchantress coupled with a block of grails for instance would destroy nagash far quicker than 4 cannons, but I guess the downside here is they need to reach him first. 

 

This is all pre GHB 2020 ofcourse. I really hope brets arent removed entirely with this edition.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Ghoooouls

[Grdaat]

14 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

Theres a hell of a lot in the game that'll kill a 5 wound hero from range these days. New lumineth archers for instance 5+ mortal wounds at 30 inch range, pretty much any wizard in the game, sisters etc.

 

It's cool, I use the damage calculator that shows you the percentage chance of wounds after you enter the hit, wound and save characteristics with rerolls etc.

 

4 cannons have a 3% chance to do 0, 14% chance to do 3, 26% chance to do 9, 18% chance to do 12, 8% chance to do 15 and 2% to do 18. Of course this is all averages and doesn't include rerolling damage, but to me sinking 800 points into artillery that, on average, will do 9 wounds per turn may not be worth it considering it's the main damage output of the army.

 

4 auto hitting trebs have a 2% chance to do 3 wounds, a 7% chance to do 6 wounds, 17% to do 9, 26% to do 12, 26% to do 15, 16% to do 18, 6% to so 21 and 1% to do 24. Again all averages and not including the cannons reroll damage which can be better or worse than the original roll unless you only reroll 1s. So on average 4 trebs auto hitting will do 12-15 wounds and a higher chance to do more than that.

 

Kinda pointless discussion now though as you say 4x trebs is way too expensive for what they are. Personally I'd go with some wizards, handgunners or other decent shooting units and bring the soul scream bridge to teleport them turn 1 and nuke anything for a fraction of the cost. The bonus here is the units you teleport are cheap, dangerous and also act as a screen for counter attacking enemy charges with their stand and shoot ability annoying anyone that has to charge them.

 

Not trying to change your list or anything just offering some other ideas as I said before my main worry would be cannons/heroes dying and then your damage output is gone.

 

I think you may be underestimating nagash here too... with immortis in petrifex he currently can easily have 2+ rerollable armour followed by 2+ shrug onto the immortis who then themselves can have a 5+ FNP save and then another 6+ FNP save. If nagash rolls a 1 and takes the wound himself, he has 5++ 6++ and teleports anywhere on the board, he also heals 3 to himself and guard per turn not including spells. Yeah portal is 1x cast per turn but he can just hand of dust all your heroes whilst bolting the rest of your army.

I'm waiting untill their book comes out before I decide anything on the Lumineth, but as for your math I don't think you did it right. How exactly do 4 cannons have a 0% chance to deal more than 18 wounds when their max output is 48? Remember that each cannon fires two shots, not one and as a result they average more than double what you say with a Cogsmith and Lord Ordinator. Which program are you using?

I might be underestimating Nagash, but while I've yet to try this list on him I have killed him with cannons (and other ranged) before, and a screen of 32 or 48 bodies is a huge blocker for him, he'll never be in range to Hand of Dust anyone unless I charge him first. I can also shoot the Immortis before Nagash to deny them the multiple attempts at saves, and choosing to stay close to them will slow Nagash by a lot, potentially getting me two or three rounds of shooting with the cannons (or four with a few if I'm very lucky).

Edited July 9, 2020 by Grdaat

[Ghoooouls]

7 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

I'm waiting untill their book comes out before I decide anything on the Lumineth, but as for your math I don't think you did it right. How exactly do 4 cannons have a 0% chance to deal more than 18 wounds when their max output is 48? Remember that each cannon fires two shots, not one and as a result they average more than double what you say with a Cogsmith and Lord Ordinator. Which program are you using?

I might be underestimating Nagash, but while I've yet to try this list on him I have killed him with cannons (and other ranged) before, and a screen of 32 or 48 bodies is a huge blocker for him, he'll never be in range to Hand of Dust anyone unless I charge him first.

It doesnt take into account decimals so I'm assuming theres some rounding up and down in the finer details. Either way I think you have a strong list in some match ups, you'll have to report back. I've played vs lumineth a couple of times on PC and whilst theyve got nothing on pre nerf slaanesh, they're very strong. All units casting to improve mortal wound output on themselves etc. The cav are insane against foot units, teclis is an outright beast if he can survive, even just for giving an 18" bubble of 5+ FNP to the army and hes worth it. Portal coupled with his nuke is ridiculous and he can do it all automatically. So portal 18" range then his nuke spell through it to hit all units within 18" and do mortals to them all.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Ghoooouls

[Grdaat]

25 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

It doesnt take into account decimals so I'm assuming theres some rounding up and down in the finer details. Either way I think you have a strong list in some match ups, you'll have to report back. I've played vs lumineth a couple of times on PC and whilst theyve got nothing on pre nerf slaanesh, they're very strong. All units casting to improve mortal wound output on themselves etc. The cav are insane against foot units, teclis is an outright beast if he can survive, even just for giving an 18" bubble of 5+ FNP to the army and hes worth it. Portal coupled with his nuke is ridiculous and he can do it all automatically. So portal 18" range then his nuke spell through it to hit all units within 18" and do mortals to them all.

Even without decimals those calculations are suspect to me, without the re-roll on the damage dice I'm still averaging nearly double what your program says. Which program are you using, if you don't mind me asking?

As for Teclis, that is pretty insane. On the plus side a cannon and crew are a single unit, so I'll at least be able to survive 4 mortal wounds each without any loss in performance from them (1 on the crew and 3 on the cannon), which is why I'm not scared of Nagash's portal. Even so, I'll need to see what it's like playing against him directly, and whether the cannons + king are enough. In that matchup I might bring out the sword of judgement instead of the Ethereal Amulet just so I can pile on the mortal wounds once he's hurt.

[Ghoooouls]

50 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Even without decimals those calculations are suspect to me, without the re-roll on the damage dice I'm still averaging nearly double what your program says. Which program are you using, if you don't mind me asking?

As for Teclis, that is pretty insane. On the plus side a cannon and crew are a single unit, so I'll at least be able to survive 4 mortal wounds each without any loss in performance from them (1 on the crew and 3 on the cannon), which is why I'm not scared of Nagash's portal. Even so, I'll need to see what it's like playing against him directly, and whether the cannons + king are enough. In that matchup I might bring out the sword of judgement instead of the Ethereal Amulet just so I can pile on the mortal wounds once he's hurt.

The tool on druuchi.net is what I use, input to hit, to wound, save etc. The only thing you can't do is input random damage, so I use the average of the random damage.

 

Either way, I've learned that too much mathhammer isn't  a good thing as you kinda lose track of variables so they can obviously perform better and worse.

 

Sword of judgement king is a beast!

Edited July 9, 2020 by Ghoooouls

[Grdaat]

13 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

The tool on druuchi.net is what I use, input to hit, to wound, save etc. The only thing you can't do is input random damage, so I use the average of the random damage.

 

Sword of judgement king is a beast!

Something is wrong with their calculator, I just looked at it myself and the calculations it gives are very off, so I'll break down my own. Keep in mind this is the average:

8 attacks, hitting on 3's with re-rolls will give 7.111 hits. 

7.111 hits wounding on 2's will give 5.926 wounds (rounding third decimal up).

5.926 wounds with a -2 rend against a 4+ save will give 4.413 unsaved wounds.

Average D6 roll (3.5) will multiply 4.413 to 15.447 (rounding third decimal up). The re-roll on low damage takes that to Nearly 20 wounds.

Even a below average damage roll of 3 per shot will have me doing 33% more damage on average than the damage calculator on Druchii.net so I'm assuming there's something wrong with it.

Sword of Judgement King is great, but in my list I need the Men-at-arms to hold which is why I went with durability, though I don't mind changing that.

By the way, no need to double space your paragraphs, TGA takes care of that automatically when you hit enter once.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Grdaat

[Mwatts25]

21 hours ago, Grdaat said:

So after some theory crafting, I figure I either go with Teclis and automatically win, or I go with the following list:

King on Hippogryph with Ethereal Amulet

Lord Ordinator

Cogsmith

48 Men-at-arms

32 Men-at-arms

32 Men-at-arms

4 Cannons

This brings me to an even 2000 points, the Ordinator lets the cannons hit on 3's, the Cogsmith lets them re-roll hits. Some of the Men-at-arms can go hold down objectives while the King prevents any of them from running away.

I would've liked to use Trebuchets, but the cannons are 80 points cheaper and you get so much more out of them for it.

Playwise, it definitely is sound,

lorewise, its an abomination......brets dont do cannons....they aren’t particularly fond of dwarves either for that matter

[Grdaat]

Just now, Mwatts25 said:

Playwise, it definitely is sound,

lorewise, its an abomination......brets dont do cannons....they aren’t particularly fond of dwarves either for that matter

If AoS is going to mangle the lore and the faction, I might as well commit to it fully.

[Evangelist of Cinders]

I mean bretonnians did use to use cannons....and I'd say they fire the ladys beams rather then cannonballs

 

[Duke of Gisoreux]

6 hours ago, Mwatts25 said:

lorewise, its an abomination......brets dont do cannons....they aren’t particularly fond of dwarves either for that matter

Bretonnia had a lot of cannons until 4th edition WHFB. They were removed in 5th edition (to distinguish them from the Empire I think).

Here are some examples from my collection:

Bretonnian Organ Gun, released 1990:

Pot de Feu (released 1990)

and there are a lot more.

[Grdaat]

18 minutes ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

Bretonnia had a lot of cannons until 4th edition WHFB. They were removed in 5th edition (to distinguish them from the Empire I think).

Here are some examples from my collection:

Bretonnian Organ Gun, released 1990:

Pot de Feu (released 1990)

and there are a lot more.

Looks like I'll be expanding my collection.

EDIT: could you add more? Those look great and I'd like to find them.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Grdaat

[Ghoooouls]

9 hours ago, Grdaat said:

Something is wrong with their calculator, I just looked at it myself and the calculations it gives are very off, so I'll break down my own. Keep in mind this is the average:

8 attacks, hitting on 3's with re-rolls will give 7.111 hits. 

7.111 hits wounding on 2's will give 5.926 wounds (rounding third decimal up).

5.926 wounds with a -2 rend against a 4+ save will give 4.413 unsaved wounds.

Average D6 roll (3.5) will multiply 4.413 to 15.447 (rounding third decimal up). The re-roll on low damage takes that to Nearly 20 wounds.

Even a below average damage roll of 3 per shot will have me doing 33% more damage on average than the damage calculator on Druchii.net so I'm assuming there's something wrong with it.

Sword of Judgement King is great, but in my list I need the Men-at-arms to hold which is why I went with durability, though I don't mind changing that.

By the way, no need to double space your paragraphs, TGA takes care of that automatically when you hit enter once.

I was calculating without buffs just scroll vs scroll so maybe that's it.

[Grdaat]

I think I figured out how to tweak my list to make it better and remove some of its disadvantages:

Inspiring King on Hippogryph with Sword of Judgement

Slann Starmaster

Lord Ordinator

Cogsmith

32 Men-at-arms

32 Men-at-arms

32 Men-at-arms

3 Cannons

As before I'm at an even 2000 points, I can output a disgusting amount of damage with 3 Cannons, I can resist 4 spells from both the Slann and the King (and the Slann can unbind anywhere on the field). I've lost some Men-at-arms but anything I've lost I've gained in damage output, especially since the Slann will be used to gather Command Points to power up the sword of Judgement and has great spells himself.

[Mwatts25]

17 hours ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

Bretonnia had a lot of cannons until 4th edition WHFB. They were removed in 5th edition (to distinguish them from the Empire I think).

Here are some examples from my collection:

Bretonnian Organ Gun, released 1990:

Pot de Feu (released 1990)

and there are a lot more.

This is true, but lorewise they retconned it a bit, and explained only the city of Languille utilized them, due to their constant raids by pirates and their habit of letting their peasants scavenge the ships. 

[Grdaat]

So since the Sword of Judgement and Ethereal Amulet both no longer exist, what do people think is the next best item to use on the King?

[Evangelist of Cinders]

21 hours ago, Grdaat said:

So since the Sword of Judgement and Ethereal Amulet both no longer exist, what do people think is the next best item to use on the King?

Quick silver potion is hard to use and can seem to add to the glass cannon feel of our charges, but I've found it useful in using the king as a vanguard at a key point, before returning it to a support bubble role

 

[Grdaat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't we take a Sacred Protector with the Graves and Broach and put him on terrain for a 2+ re-rollable save that is immune to Rend?

[Grdaat]

Actually something I've just noticed was the little notice in the new General's Handbook, Legends units are no longer legal without the express permission of your opponent and without the express invitation of events, and all of our units are now in the Legends category.

Well it was fun while it lasted, but I probably won't be making any new lists for them since nearly everything I use is now squatted. I don't like having to jump through hoops to play an army, and I don't like needing my opponent's permission to use them, especially since I don't know everyone I'll be playing and some newer players will just go "I'd rather stick to "official" armies."

[Greybeard86]

On 7/16/2020 at 10:29 PM, Grdaat said:

Actually something I've just noticed was the little notice in the new General's Handbook, Legends units are no longer legal without the express permission of your opponent and without the express invitation of events, and all of our units are now in the Legends category.

Oh dear! Quick question: do people actually bring Bretonnia to tournies?

[Evangelist of Cinders]

I'm sure some did as Order; but I  doubt much as just Bretonnians after the advent of common implementation of mortal wounds, a few armies suffered as a result but most got new armies soon after.

[Grdaat]

6 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

Oh dear! Quick question: do people actually bring Bretonnia to tournies?

You're three months late, but the answer was yes.