Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
oscisi

AoS 2 - Bretonnia Discussion

Recommended Posts

Hey everybody, as a lark I figured I'd try using my Bretonnia stuff in games again, but they're just so bad. Power creep has left them far behind and I'm struggling to find any matchup they do well in, so I tried looking for outside sources. Does anyone know of any buff abilities that are used by other models that can affect Bretonnian troops? I remember for a while Chaos had a sorcerer Lord who was able to do that across faction lines, but I can't find anything in order that does this. Despite being part of Grand Alliance: Order it seems like there's not much synergy in this alliance.

Failing that are there any other models that can help support them? I'm talking models like Gotrek that can be taken either as allies or as a part of the force. Are there any mercenaries that give them a noticeable benefit they were lacking? I was thinking of maybe the cannon group, but I haven't used them with Bretonnia before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should probably also mention I've tried out the judgement lord, but it seems like everybody's super-monster has a way to shut him down and he's not so great against summon spam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, as of now, aos is just so tilted towards trying to get people to play the new armies that there is very little chance of Bretonnia getting equal treatment, by that I mean they won’t be given any assistance via rule updates, decent synergy with ga:o resources, or any real faction bonuses. Gw wants us all to reinvest in their new products rather than allow the old armies to function. From a business standpoint that makes sense, but from a community standpoint it’s absolutely deplorable. Your only hope is having decent buddies that are willing to help you test out some homebrew until you create something decent(neither o.p. nor ineffective) that you can attempt to submit to a gw representative, in the hopes they might add it to the rules in a rulebook addendum or an annual compendium.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mwatts25 said:

Honestly, as of now, aos is just so tilted towards trying to get people to play the new armies that there is very little chance of Bretonnia getting equal treatment, by that I mean they won’t be given any assistance via rule updates, decent synergy with ga:o resources, or any real faction bonuses. Gw wants us all to reinvest in their new products rather than allow the old armies to function. From a business standpoint that makes sense, but from a community standpoint it’s absolutely deplorable. Your only hope is having decent buddies that are willing to help you test out some homebrew until you create something decent(neither o.p. nor ineffective) that you can attempt to submit to a gw representative, in the hopes they might add it to the rules in a rulebook addendum or an annual compendium.

Yeah, I've noticed that. The power creep's so extreme the games just aren't fun. You get ridiculously cheap units for the damage they put out or summon spam, that seems to be the main go-to for the new stuff and it's really been turning me off the game in general.

Getting back to my question for just a moment, what's the point of a Grand Alliance if nothing in it supports each other? The rules feel more divisive then back when they were first released.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tbh there is no point anymore, the more new factions they make, the less useful the alliance’s are, my bet is the alliance rules will be dissolved in about a year

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Grdaat said:

Hey everybody, as a lark I figured I'd try using my Bretonnia stuff in games again, but they're just so bad. Power creep has left them far behind and I'm struggling to find any matchup they do well in, so I tried looking for outside sources. Does anyone know of any buff abilities that are used by other models that can affect Bretonnian troops? I remember for a while Chaos had a sorcerer Lord who was able to do that across faction lines, but I can't find anything in order that does this. Despite being part of Grand Alliance: Order it seems like there's not much synergy in this alliance.

Failing that are there any other models that can help support them? I'm talking models like Gotrek that can be taken either as allies or as a part of the force. Are there any mercenaries that give them a noticeable benefit they were lacking? I was thinking of maybe the cannon group, but I haven't used them with Bretonnia before.

Well, your not going to get the synergy bonuses of other armies, you REALLY need to play objectives and the two remaining compendium armies were always mediocre( though compared to CoS i feel the Brets aren't too expensive). Brets got hit with the Nerfbat when 2.0 came around and it doesn't taking away there unique abilities and antimagic. They were always meant for a friendly Beer and Pretzel game, and be mediocre I don't feel they are designed to frustrate you into buying more stuff. I think they got left behind in design meta and I feel this is more to do with AoS is a very different game then how GW use to design and they are still finding their way. the shift towards the mortal wound output is what REALLY hurt us,  and a lot of attempts to design unique playstyles caused the more  unique aspects of the game to ramp up. I do think grand alliances allegiance is still useful but it's more designed to take things that is they were in a singular army you'd be lacking(give DoK some heavy infantry, KO with some Magic ect) at the cost of some synergy buffs. However if all your units are across the board mediocre it's not great but by the same reason look for units to fill roles we are lacking. The other advantage of grand alliances is all the cool modeling and kitbashing theme opportunity it creates but that doesn't help you here

Caveat also I  went full into AoS inspired by Dark age of Sigmar look and that community tends to encourage weird combos for your projects story and look. I have been converting and modeling them to fit that sort of setting Rather then just rebasing my old army for a new game so some of my advice will upset purists

All that said I have still won a few games with Brets but will say unlike other armies I own, there is NO room for strategic error, too much bad luck with the dice is a game ender and a lot of this advice goes out the door with the new GHB(but who knows so may Bret points). First the biggest thing that hurts me is the inability to dish out or ignore mortal wounds, some artifacts from malign sorcery and endless spells are very useful at that, failing that my strategy has been to dish out as many dice as possible so my Errants get the most outings. The  Second thing is without a book battalions your going to be behind on the artifact game nor the special rules and synergy bonuses they often get; this is fine many armies that succeed don't take but you really have to play to what your missing from Bretonnia and maybe see yourself as playing grand alliance ORder rather then Bretonnia.  With how their synergy works plan the other elements to not have any of the bonuses. maybe thats a Gotrek for you or Maybe a KO frigate.

there are still Heroes especially in other armies that effect order(mostly stormcast) I've converted several to fit my Bretonnians theme, Some may vanish with the new GHB I don't have my copy yet to tell you(knight of Azyros outta a much filed and green stuffed sister Hero, Shackled Fallen Gods as  my Luminark, ect) So it may be good to look at faults in your army on the field and make a theme base off of it, maybe if you need a better anvil then your peasants now  your knights are fallowed by a host of CoS Flagellants converted to their Strange Goddess due to the devotion and dedication of your knights against Chaos, Maybe some Fyreslayers bought by a Realmlords Athergold

(side on club notes we had a campaign where we brought back the Brets standard ability that Each unit with a standard bearer could Unbind a Spell per round. for our other Bret player it made up for a lot but may need to be per game, but I was using a very magic heavy chaos army at the time so was bias)

 

I have been working on a few projects assuming we are moving to legends on what to do with the minis assuming we are going away in 2020(cause even in the old world if your a Bret player you loved your army but be super pessimistic about GW supporting you)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/9/2020 at 9:36 PM, Paladin of Khorne said:

They exist. They eat flesh and are aligned with death. 

FEC is what remains of Tilea, Estalia, the border princes and some of the VC factions, not Bretonnia(the only exception you could possibly make is a single cities occupants, that being Mousilon, but that is not canon to the lore)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mwatts25 said:

FEC is what remains of Tilea, Estalia, the border princes and some of the VC factions, not Bretonnia(the only exception you could possibly make is a single cities occupants, that being Mousilon, but that is not canon to the lore)

Here's the big difference: Bretonnia is what the FEC imagine they are, and FEC are the type of thing Bretonnia would fight against.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Grdaat said:

Hey everybody, as a lark I figured I'd try using my Bretonnia stuff in games again, but they're just so bad. Power creep has left them far behind and I'm struggling to find any matchup they do well in, so I tried looking for outside sources. Does anyone know of any buff abilities that are used by other models that can affect Bretonnian troops? I remember for a while Chaos had a sorcerer Lord who was able to do that across faction lines, but I can't find anything in order that does this. Despite being part of Grand Alliance: Order it seems like there's not much synergy in this alliance.

Failing that are there any other models that can help support them? I'm talking models like Gotrek that can be taken either as allies or as a part of the force. Are there any mercenaries that give them a noticeable benefit they were lacking? I was thinking of maybe the cannon group, but I haven't used them with Bretonnia before.

If your opponent allows you could just field 50% more points in matched play to have a fair matchup with Bretonnia. So play with 3000 points of Bretonnia against a regular 2000 point army for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

If your opponent allows you could just field 50% more points in matched play to have a fair matchup with Bretonnia. So play with 3000 points of Bretonnia against a regular 2000 point army for example.

That's what I'm trying to avoid, I'd just like to play the same points as my opponent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Grdaat said:

Here's the big difference: Bretonnia is what the FEC imagine they are, and FEC are the type of thing Bretonnia would fight against.

Even that isnt quite accurate, Bretonnians are/were elitist snobs who were isolationists and segregationists. the FEC view themselves as glorious magnanimous rulers bringing the delights of their lifestyles to others(but in actuality spreading zombie and ghoul infestation like a plague) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

That's what I'm trying to avoid, I'd just like to play the same points as my opponent.

You could reinstitute the 2 rules that granted equal footing to the bret’s in wfb, those being lance formation and lady’s blessing rules

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Mwatts25 said:

Even that isnt quite accurate, Bretonnians are/were elitist snobs who were isolationists and segregationists. the FEC view themselves as glorious magnanimous rulers bringing the delights of their lifestyles to others(but in actuality spreading zombie and ghoul infestation like a plague) 

FEC still have nobles and peasants without any mixing between the two, they just never imagine the parts where life isn't a party and they actually need to govern their lower class. That being said, there are several examples I can think of in their battletome where the FEC are isolationists, and if they stopped living the high life they're imagining they'd absolutely be segregationists.

Basically they do what Bretonnians do whenever they don't actually have to govern: imagine themselves to be magnanimous rulers while living so high up above their serfs that they've completely lost track of where they are.

9 minutes ago, Mwatts25 said:

You could reinstitute the 2 rules that granted equal footing to the bret’s in wfb, those being lance formation and lady’s blessing rules

I've thought about that, but I'm trying to be as true to the rules as possible in case I'm playing somebody I'm not familiar with. Rushing house rules on a new opponent isn't a good idea and you should at least play a few normal games with them first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

FEC still have nobles and peasants without any mixing between the two, they just never imagine the parts where life isn't a party and they actually need to govern their lower class. That being said, there are several examples I can think of in their battletome where the FEC are isolationists, and if they stopped living the high life they're imagining they'd absolutely be segregationists.

Basically they do what Bretonnians do whenever they don't actually have to govern: imagine themselves to be magnanimous rulers while living so high up above their serfs that they've completely lost track of where they are.

I've thought about that, but I'm trying to be as true to the rules as possible in case I'm playing somebody I'm not familiar with. Rushing house rules on a new opponent isn't a good idea and you should at least play a few normal games with them first.

I would tend to disagree as to how Bretonnian lords behave in regard to the lower classes compared to how the FEC treat their lower classes, lorewise, the FEC see themselves as much more tolerant and accepting of the peasants than 90% of Bretonnian lords, and the few bret lords who did treat their serfs in any positive way were seen as odd, eccentric, or even as criminals and heretics. The Bretonnian lords had it ground into them from birth that a peasant was simply a tool meant to aide his lord in furthering his goals. These tools were to be protected from malignant forces(orcs, skaven, undead, chaos, the wild hunt, etc) but only to prevent the loss of that tool. The FEC are (in their own minds) concerned about their “peasants” in a slightly less teutonic manner.

 

also, the addition of those two rules really should be brought back officially, as without them the power creep for the new armies is ridiculously slanted against brets. They have pricy mages who deserve the lance formation’s protection, the lance formation itself only grants 2 extra attacks for a relatively small unit of cavalry(assuming a unit of 8 knights with a mage in the pocket.)

and the blessing comes at sacrifice to first turn in game

Edited by Mwatts25

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Mwatts25 said:

I would tend to disagree as to how Bretonnian lords behave in regard to the lower classes compared to how the FEC treat their lower classes, lorewise, the FEC see themselves as much more tolerant and accepting of the peasants than 90% of Bretonnian lords, and the few bret lords who did treat their serfs in any positive way were seen as odd, eccentric, or even as criminals and heretics. The Bretonnian lords had it ground into them from birth that a peasant was simply a tool meant to aide his lord in furthering his goals. These tools were to be protected from malignant forces(orcs, skaven, undead, chaos, the wild hunt, etc) but only to prevent the loss of that tool. The FEC are (in their own minds) concerned about their “peasants” in a slightly less teutonic manner.

Like I said, the FEC never imagine the parts of life that aren't a party, they never actually get to the bit where they have to govern. They're either out on a crusade, or at a ball, or at a feast, or some combination of the three whereas Bretonnian nobles did have to go through the parts where they had to deal with their peasants needs directly. If we want to use some examples, I could point to Ghoulslayer as a time when a FEC thought their peasants didn't want to be a part of their realm anymore, and their reaction was to crush them with extreme prejudice, to the point that at the end they were just going to raze what they thought was the most grand city they'd ever seen out of spite and didn't even consider allowing them the ability to surrender (once they'd gotten set up for the attack anyway).

24 minutes ago, Mwatts25 said:

also, the addition of those two rules really should be brought back officially, as without them the power creep for the new armies is ridiculously slanted against brets. They have pricy mages who deserve the lance formation’s protection, the lance formation itself only grants 2 extra attacks for a relatively small unit of cavalry(assuming a unit of 8 knights with a mage in the pocket.)

and the blessing comes at sacrifice to first turn in game

I completely agree here, however like I said I'm not going to play as if I have it because I don't want to rub newcomers the wrong way. Also part of the advantage of the lance was fewer counterattacks (especially against hordes) so it would need some weird wording to work in AoS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Like I said, the FEC never imagine the parts of life that aren't a party, they never actually get to the bit where they have to govern. They're either out on a crusade, or at a ball, or at a feast, or some combination of the three whereas Bretonnian nobles did have to go through the parts where they had to deal with their peasants needs directly. If we want to use some examples, I could point to Ghoulslayer as a time when a FEC thought their peasants didn't want to be a part of their realm anymore, and their reaction was to crush them with extreme prejudice, to the point that at the end they were just going to raze what they thought was the most grand city they'd ever seen out of spite and didn't even consider allowing them the ability to surrender (once they'd gotten set up for the attack anyway).

I completely agree here, however like I said I'm not going to play as if I have it because I don't want to rub newcomers the wrong way. Also part of the advantage of the lance was fewer counterattacks (especially against hordes) so it would need some weird wording to work in AoS.

I get what you are saying, but honestly that still sounds more like Tilean’s and Estalians more than bret’s imo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Mwatts25 said:

I get what you are saying, but honestly that still sounds more like Tilean’s and Estalians more than bret’s imo

They're all close like that, but I don't recall Tilean's or Estalians romanticizing the steeds they think they're riding like the FEC do, that's one of the reasons it scoots over into imagining they're Bretonnia for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

They're all close like that, but I don't recall Tilean's or Estalians romanticizing the steeds they think they're riding like the FEC do, that's one of the reasons it scoots over into imagining they're Bretonnia for me.

Tileans and estalians had a huge rivalry with Bretonnian’s over many things, including horse breeding, if you look at the lore of some of the mounted dogs of war heroes, it goes into it a bit. But the biggest thing that ties FEC to Tilea, Estalia, and the border princes is their  origin beliefs, specifically about Ushoran “the handsome”(whose unsurprisingly a character from the old world, the first strigoi vampire). His “kingdom” was situated in the Badlands just south of the eastern edge of the border princes and just east of the tilean peninsula.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Grdaat said:

Hey everybody, as a lark I figured I'd try using my Bretonnia stuff in games again, but they're just so bad. Power creep has left them far behind and I'm struggling to find any matchup they do well in, so I tried looking for outside sources. Does anyone know of any buff abilities that are used by other models that can affect Bretonnian troops? I remember for a while Chaos had a sorcerer Lord who was able to do that across faction lines, but I can't find anything in order that does this. Despite being part of Grand Alliance: Order it seems like there's not much synergy in this alliance.

Failing that are there any other models that can help support them? I'm talking models like Gotrek that can be taken either as allies or as a part of the force. Are there any mercenaries that give them a noticeable benefit they were lacking? I was thinking of maybe the cannon group, but I haven't used them with Bretonnia before.

Loremaster has an incredible spell for grails. I'm not sure the loremaster exists anymore though..?

 

Teclis and a lot of the new lumineth have abilities that work on friendly units so you could check them out.

Edited by Ghoooouls

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

In all honesty this question will be easier to answer once we have a GHB to look at. If our points are gone then we are relegated to open play; which is fine  nut bot every group is great at using it and it takes effort to come up with scenarios. We also will know better what units if any survived last years purge, cause thatwhere many who have Order abilities reside like the Warpriest

Edited by Evangelist of Cinders
word choice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Ghoooouls said:

Loremaster has an incredible spell for grails. I'm not sure the loremaster exists anymore though..?

 

Teclis and a lot of the new lumineth have abilities that work on friendly units so you could check them out.

Definitely considering Teclis, especially since he gives the save that they should already have, but I'm passing on the Loremaster since in my experience spellcasters are extremely unreliable unless, like Teclis, they have extra rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So after some theory crafting, I figure I either go with Teclis and automatically win, or I go with the following list:

King on Hippogryph with Ethereal Amulet

Lord Ordinator

Cogsmith

48 Men-at-arms

32 Men-at-arms

32 Men-at-arms

4 Cannons

This brings me to an even 2000 points, the Ordinator lets the cannons hit on 3's, the Cogsmith lets them re-roll hits. Some of the Men-at-arms can go hold down objectives while the King prevents any of them from running away.

I would've liked to use Trebuchets, but the cannons are 80 points cheaper and you get so much more out of them for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Evangelist of Cinders said:

I've Never tried the cannon I'm interested to hear how this goes?

I'll come back after I play a game with it, I figure it should help since that sort of setup puts out so much damage, it kills petrifex elite Nagash in two rounds of shooting, same with Archaon, same with Teclis, and same with any other super unit you can think of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...