AoS 2 - Bretonnia Discussion

[ilaxu 'Minute']

4 hours ago, oscisi said:

That’s a clever idea! The forest theme goes well with the Enchantress so it should definitely be doable. Some kit bashing will of course be needed and I would, as a matter of fact, not just cut off the antlers of the mounts but actually change the heads into horse heads completely (and then add the unicorn horn). Otherwise I think it might be hard to sell the idea that the mount is a unicorn. But beyond that I don’t see too many changes that are needed. 

The plan is to take one of the Sisters of the Thorn and mount her on an Empire Knights Horse (I have 8 of them hanging around that I'm planning to add to the ranks) as they do have an armour spike on the forehead plate for the horse, which one could argue is armour over a horn beneath.  Although I plan to look into the green stuff route to see if that's a viable option as well.

Another two of the Sisters of the Thorn will be added straight to the Pegasi models to give me my flying caster pair for when I decide to use 2 of them at a time. A fourth one will then gain a Bretonnian Horse mount to represent the Archmage, although I'm considering just buying the archmage kit at the moment as that would give me the mounted archmage and an unmounted mage which I could convert into a battlemage.

As for the 5 Deer from the kit, I'm not entirely sure what I'll do with them yet. I 100% plan on assembling them and all, the question is just what unit will I end up using them for?  

The other thing I need to work out is what will I do to the Sisters of the Thorn models to make them become less overtly Elven.

2 hours ago, Lightbox said:

Begun work on this project with my grail knights and will be posting future project updates on my blog!

 

Looking good, I look forward to the final result.

[Fullbret]

10 hours ago, oscisi said:

If I had a list at 1940 points I would definitely take the cogs over the extra command point. If you use them conservatively (i.e. to slow down time) you keep your caster alive for longer (which is super important) and get an extra spell.  But the more interesting part is when you gamble and speed up time. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least two games that I played as Bretonnia where I won entirely thanks to the extra four inches taking me to where I needed to be. See, for example, this battle report: 

 

Thank you I'll take a look.

[Fullbret]

What would a 1k list look like?  I've been trying to you with it and I keep going over.

[Lightbox]

10 minutes ago, Fullbret said:

What would a 1k list look like?  I've been trying to you with it and I keep going over.

For a 1k list with the cogs I think the following could be an interesting shout:

1 Enchantress - 160

1 Damsel - 100

10x Grail Knights - 360

16x Men at arms - 120

8x Knights Errant - 200

Chronomantic Cogs - 60

Points: 1000/1000

 

You'd get a decent beatstick in the form of 10 grail knights with an enchantress at 1k levels along with cheap bodies to screen and the errant and damsel to take on weaker targets / nab objectives. The cogs would help give you that superiority in movement speed.

[ilaxu 'Minute']

13 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

For a 1k list with the cogs I think the following could be an interesting shout:

1 Enchantress - 160

1 Damsel - 100

10x Grail Knights - 360

16x Men at arms - 120

8x Knights Errant - 200

Chronomantic Cogs - 60

Points: 1000/1000

 

You'd get a decent beatstick in the form of 10 grail knights with an enchantress at 1k levels along with cheap bodies to screen and the errant and damsel to take on weaker targets / nab objectives. The cogs would help give you that superiority in movement speed.

The main thing to note here is that the Grail Knights will be relegated the task of Hero killers, as none of the other units would be able to reliably deal with a nasty combat unit very well. So whilst there shouldn't be too many monstrously strong heroes you'd have to fight at that points limit, where they do show up they would be high priority for the Knights.

[Drakilian]

So news. Just finally got into my new town, I will be apartment hunting and alll that jazz. But I am thinking next weekend I should be able to drop my full Adepticon report and reply to all these wonderful new people!

In other news, the local area here does seasonal path to glory leagues. The guy in charge is making me a Bretonnian chart. Any ideas for me to send his way?

Also, the Hedonites of Slaanesh vrs Bretonnian video is up on MWG. Where Vito is heavily conflicted with who he wanted to win.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Drakilian

[ilaxu 'Minute']

2 hours ago, Drakilian said:

In other news, the local area here does seasonal path to glory leagues. The guy in charge is making me a Bretonnian chart. Any ideas for me to send his way?

 

So I may have decided to randomly accept this challenge and built an entire thing from scratch... I've set the Generals list along with starting units (As well as a conceptual additional limiter, which limits how many units with the Nobility keyword each general option can have in their starting roster), the unit pool for te Retinue and the Champion/Retinue rewards. See in spoiler

Hope this helps.

Regards,
The Amateur Game Designer,
~ilaxu

 below

Spoiler

 

BRETONNIAN PATH TO GLORY - AMATEUR CONCEPT VERSION 01 - ILAXU

GENERALS:
King on Hippogryph - 2 Units /                            2 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Sacred Protector - 3 Units /                                  2 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Enchantress - 3 Units /                                             2 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Bretonnian Lord - 4 Units /                                    3 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Damsel - 5 Units /                                                        2 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Noble Standard Bearer - 5 Units /                     3 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Noble Champion - 6 Units /                                   1 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
 

RETINUES:
Troops:
1-2: 16 Men-At-Arms OR 16 Peasant Archers
3: 6 Grail Pilgrims OR 1 Field Trebuchet
4-5: 8 Knights Errant OR 8 Knights of the Realm OR 5 Mounted Yeomen
6: 5 Questing Knights OR 5 Grail Knights OR 3 Pegasus Knights
Heroes:
1-2: Noble Champion OR Noble Standard Bearer
4-5: Damsel OR Bretonnian Lord
6: Enchantress OR Sacred Protector

CHAMPION REWARDS:
2: Unfaithful to the Lady: Your general has eternally lost the Lady’s Blessing. They lose the Bretonnian/Nobility Keyword and can no longer use spells or abilities that use the Bretonnian/Nobility keyword in their description.
3: Scourge of the Realm: Your general gains +1 to hit and +1 to wound. Your general also loses the Nobility keyword from their description.
4: Guide of the Masses: Friendly units with the Peasantry keyword within 10” may re-roll rolls of 1 to hit. This is increased to rolls of 1 or 2 if under the effects of Divine Favour.
5: Blade of the Realm: Your general gains +1 attack with a single weapon.
6: Defender of the Masses: Friendly units with the Peasantry keyword within 10” may re-roll rolls of 1 for save. This is increased to rolls of 1 or 2 if under the effects of Mystic Shield.
7: Champion of Bretonnia: Your general gains +2 Bravery.
8: Defender of the Nobility: Friendly units with the Nobility keyword within 10” add +1 to their armour save when charging.
9: Shield of the Realm: Your general gains +1 to their save.
10: Guide of the Nobility: Friendly units with the Nobility keyword within 10” may re-roll failed charge rolls.
11: Guardian of the Realm: Your general gains +2 wounds.
12: Paragon of Virtue: Your general has gained the Lady’s Eternal Blessing. They will always count as being under the effect of the spells Divine Favour and Divine Blessing which cannot be dispelled by any means.

RETINUE REWARDS:
1: Lost to the Lady: This unit may not roll from this table again.
2: Strength of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may re-roll saves.
3: Steeds of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may run and charge.
4: Sons of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may add +1 to hit.
5: Saviours of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may add +1 to wound.
6: Blessing of the Lady: The unit will always count as being under the effect of the spell Divine Blessing which cannot be dispelled by any means.

 

 

[Lightbox]

3 hours ago, Drakilian said:

In other news, the local area here does seasonal path to glory leagues. The guy in charge is making me a Bretonnian chart. Any ideas for me to send his way?

 

58 minutes ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

 

 

So I may have decided to randomly accept this challenge and built an entire thing from scratch... I've set the Generals list along with starting units (As well as a conceptual additional limiter, which limits how many units with the Nobility keyword each general option can have in their starting roster), the unit pool for te Retinue and the Champion/Retinue rewards. See in spoiler

Hope this helps.

Regards,
The Amateur Game Designer,
~ilaxu

 below

  Reveal hidden contents

 

BRETONNIAN PATH TO GLORY - AMATEUR CONCEPT VERSION 01 - ILAXU

GENERALS:
King on Hippogryph - 2 Units /                            2 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Sacred Protector - 3 Units /                                  2 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Enchantress - 3 Units /                                             2 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Bretonnian Lord - 4 Units /                                    3 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Damsel - 5 Units /                                                        2 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Noble Standard Bearer - 5 Units /                     3 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
Noble Champion - 6 Units /                                   1 Nobility Max (General Not Included)
 

RETINUES:
Troops:
1-2: 16 Men-At-Arms OR 16 Peasant Archers
3: 6 Grail Pilgrims OR 1 Field Trebuchet
4-5: 8 Knights Errant OR 8 Knights of the Realm OR 5 Mounted Yeomen
6: 5 Questing Knights OR 5 Grail Knights OR 3 Pegasus Knights
Heroes:
1-2: Noble Champion OR Noble Standard Bearer
4-5: Damsel OR Bretonnian Lord
6: Enchantress OR Sacred Protector

CHAMPION REWARDS:
2: Unfaithful to the Lady: Your general has eternally lost the Lady’s Blessing. They lose the Bretonnian/Nobility Keyword and can no longer use spells or abilities that use the Bretonnian/Nobility keyword in their description.
3: Scourge of the Realm: Your general gains +1 to hit and +1 to wound. Your general also loses the Nobility keyword from their description.
4: Guide of the Masses: Friendly units with the Peasantry keyword within 10” may re-roll rolls of 1 to hit. This is increased to rolls of 1 or 2 if under the effects of Divine Favour.
5: Blade of the Realm: Your general gains +1 attack with a single weapon.
6: Defender of the Masses: Friendly units with the Peasantry keyword within 10” may re-roll rolls of 1 for save. This is increased to rolls of 1 or 2 if under the effects of Mystic Shield.
7: Champion of Bretonnia: Your general gains +2 Bravery.
8: Defender of the Nobility: Friendly units with the Nobility keyword within 10” add +1 to their armour save when charging.
9: Shield of the Realm: Your general gains +1 to their save.
10: Guide of the Nobility: Friendly units with the Nobility keyword within 10” may re-roll failed charge rolls.
11: Guardian of the Realm: Your general gains +2 wounds.
12: Paragon of Virtue: Your general has gained the Lady’s Eternal Blessing. They will always count as being under the effect of the spells Divine Favour and Divine Blessing which cannot be dispelled by any means.

RETINUE REWARDS:
1: Lost to the Lady: This unit may not roll from this table again.
2: Strength of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may re-roll saves.
3: Steeds of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may run and charge.
4: Sons of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may add +1 to hit.
5: Saviours of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may add +1 to wound.
6: Blessing of the Lady: The unit will always count as being under the effect of the spell Divine Blessing which cannot be dispelled by any means.

 

 

So I'd put together this so far recently using the ptg formula of 1 pick = 100 points (rounding to closest) which most ptg lists follow. Though brets may wanna be changed because they're overpriced when it comes to points. Hadn't done upgrades though so many have to pilfer ilaxus for my ptg campaign!

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bL8wFtZo_YkjZeGHTnXaLIM53wnqGX3TZZoeAkUR_HA/edit?usp=drivesdk

Edited June 13, 2019 by Lightbox

[ilaxu 'Minute']

5 hours ago, Lightbox said:

 

So I'd put together this so far recently using the ptg formula of 1 pick = 100 points (rounding to closest) which most ptg lists follow. Though brets may wanna be changed because they're overpriced when it comes to points. Hadn't done upgrades though so many have to pilfer ilaxus for my ptg campaign!

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bL8wFtZo_YkjZeGHTnXaLIM53wnqGX3TZZoeAkUR_HA/edit?usp=drivesdk

After going over your suggestions I've done an edit of mine to bring it a bit more in-line with the points system, however after some thought I've decided to change things up a bit. I've done an evaluation of points costs for models and worked out a rough idea of how each model type performs. I've then created new unit sizes to match the format, as the unit sizes that the Bretonnians tended to have were based on the boxset sizes, a factor which is considerably less important these days. These new unit sizes should allow for the list to have more flavour and flexibility, whilst also being well suited to a semi-narrative campaign like Path to Glory.

You can read the changes in the spoiler below, but to summarise I've set the units to work in increments of 5 instead of 6, 8 or 16 as seen in the pdf.
Knights of the Realm/Knights Errant: 5/10 a unit
Mounted Yeomen: 10 a unit
Peasant Bowmen/Men-At-Arms: 15 a unit
Grail Pilgrims: 10 a unit
 

I hope you like this revised version, hope it helps~ @Drakilian

Regards,
~ilaxu

Spoiler

BRETONNIAN PATH TO GLORY - AMATEUR CONCEPT VERSION 02 - ILAXU

GENERALS:
King on Hippogryph - 2 Units
Sacred Protector - 3 Units
Enchantress - 3 Units 
Bretonnian Lord - 4 Units
Damsel - 5 Units
Noble Standard Bearer - 5 Units 
Noble Champion - 5 Units

PATH TO GLORY SPECIAL RULE: The amount of units in the army with the NOBILITY keyword may not exceed half of the total unit count rounded up. This does include the army general.

RETINUES:
Troops: [1 Pick]
1: 10 Grail Pilgrims
2: 15 Men-At-Arms
3: 10 Mounted Yeomen
4: 15 Peasant Bowmen
5: 5 Knights Errant
6: 5 Knights of the Realm
Elite Troops: [2 Picks OR 1 Pick & 1 GP]
1: 10 Knights Errant
2: 10 Knights of the Realm
3: 1 Field Trebuchet
4: 3 Pegasus Knights
5: 5 Questing Knights
6: 5 Grail Knights
Heroes: [1 Pick OR 1 GP]
1-4: Noble Champion OR Noble Standard Bearer OR Bretonnian Lord
5-6: Damsel 
Mighty Heroes: [2 Picks OR 1 Pick & 1 GP]
1-4: Enchantress
5-6: Sacred Protector

CHAMPION REWARDS:
2: Unfaithful to the Lady: Your general has eternally lost the Lady’s Blessing. They lose the Bretonnian/Nobility Keyword and can no longer use spells or abilities that use the Bretonnian/Nobility keyword in their description. 
3: Scourge of the Realm: Your general gains +1 to hit and +1 to wound. Your general also loses the Nobility keyword from their description. 
4: Guide of the Masses: Friendly units with the Peasantry keyword within 10” may re-roll rolls of 1 to hit. This is increased to rolls of 1 or 2 if under the effects of Divine Favour.
5: Blade of the Realm: Your general gains +1 attack with a single weapon.
6: Defender of the Masses: Friendly units with the Peasantry keyword within 10” may re-roll rolls of 1 for save. This is increased to rolls of 1 or 2 if under the effects of Mystic Shield.
7: Champion of Bretonnia: Your general gains +2 Bravery.
8: Defender of the Nobility: Friendly units with the Nobility keyword within 10” add +1 to their armour save when charging. 
9: Shield of the Realm: Your general gains +1 to their save.
10: Guide of the Nobility: Friendly units with the Nobility keyword within 10” may re-roll failed charge rolls. 
11: Guardian of the Realm: Your general gains +2 wounds. 
12: Paragon of Virtue: Your general has gained the Lady’s Eternal Blessing. They will always count as being under the effect of the spells Divine Favour and Divine Blessing which cannot be dispelled by any means.

RETINUE REWARDS:
1: Lost to the Lady: This unit may not roll from this table again.
2: Strength of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may re-roll saves.
3: Steeds of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may run and charge. 
4: Sons of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may add +1 to hit.
5: Saviours of Bretonnia: Once per game this unit may add +1 to wound. 
6: Blessing of the Lady: The unit will always count as being under the effect of the spell Divine Blessing which cannot be dispelled by any means.

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by ilaxu 'Minute'
Correcting the Unit Cap & adding Path to Glory rule.

[ilaxu 'Minute']

Hey all, just been doing some MathHammer (Lady forgive me) and wanted to get my findings double checked. Can anyone see any flaws with what I've done so far?

I must admit I was a little surprised that the Knights of the Realm out performed the Knights Errant at base sizes but when you factor in something like Divine Favour then it makes sense I suppose as the damage potential would really spike up. Especially when you factor in the massed horse attacks.

Also, I finally understand why the Pegasus Knights are avoided so much... I mean, they even lose out to Mounted Yeomen for roughly the same points...

Cavalry unit damage output on the charge:

Spoiler

 

[8 Knights Errant] Offensive: Attacks: 9x Lance, 16x Horses. Average hits: 4.5/5.25 Lance Hits, 8/9.34 Horse Hits. Average Wounds on Charge: 3/3.5 Lance Wounds, 4/4.66 Horse Wounds. Damage vs 4+ Save: 3/3.5 Lance Damage, 2/2.33 Horse Damage. Summary: 5/5.83 Wounds on Charge for 200 Points. (Bonus within 18" of Damsel at turn start)

[8 Knights of the Realm] Offensive: Attacks: 9x Lance, 16x Horses. Average Hits: 6 Lance Hits, 8 Horse Hits. Average Wounds on Charge: 4 Lance Wounds, 4 Horse Wounds. Damage vs 4+ Save: 4 Lance Damage, 2 Horse Damage. Summary: 6 Wounds On Charge for 220 Points.

[5 Questing Knights] Offensive: Attacks: 11x Greatsword, 10x Horses. Average Hits: 7.33 Greatsword Hits, 5 Horse Hits. Average Wounds on Charge: 4.89 Greatsword Wounds, 2.5 Horse Wounds. Damage vs 4+ Save: 2.45/4.89 Greatsword Damage,  1.25 Horse Damage. Summary: 3.7/6.14 Wounds on Charge for 180 Points. (Bonus vs MONSTERS keyword)

[5 Grail Knights] Offensive: Attacks: 10x Lance, 10x Horses. Average Hits: 6.67/8.94 Lance Hits, 5/7.5 Horse Hits. Average Wounds on Charge: 4.47/5.96 Lance Wounds, 2.5/4.38 Horse Wounds. Damage vs 4+ Save: 5.96/7.95 Lance Damage, 1.25/2.19 Horse Damage. Summary: 7.21/10.14 Wounds on Charge for 180 Points. (Bonus within 10" of Enchantress) (Natural Rend -1)

[10 Mounted Yeomen] Offensive: Attacks: 11 Spears, 20 Horses. Average Hits: 5.5 Spear Hits, 10 Horses. Average Wounds on Charge: 2.75 Spear Wounds, 3.34 Horse Wounds. Damage vs 4+ Save: 1.38 Spear Damage, 1.67 Horse Damage. Summary: 3.05 Wounds on Charge for 200 Points. 

[3 Pegasus Knights] Offensive: Attacks: 7x Lance, 6x Horses. Average Hits: 4.67 Lance Hits, 3 Horse Hits. Average Wounds on Charge: 3.11 Lance Wounds, 1.5 Horse Wounds. Damage vs 4+ Save: 3.11 Lance Damage, 0.75 Horse Damage. Summary: 3.86 Wounds on Charge for 180 Points. 

 

Cavalry unit durability on the charge:

Spoiler

[8 Knights Errant] Defensive: Wounds: 16.  Save: 4+.  Effective Wounds: 24/26 at Rend 0 for 200 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

[8 Knights of the Realm] Defensive: Wounds: 16. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 24/26 at Rend 0 for 220 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

[5 Questing Knights] Defensive: Wounds: 10. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 15/16.25 at Rend 0 for 180 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

[5 Grail Knights] Defensive: Wounds: 10. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 15/16.25 at Rend 0 for 180 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

[10 Mounted Yeomen] Defensive: Wounds: 20. Save: 6+. Effective Wounds: 23.34/23.99 at Rend 0 for 200 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

[3 Pegasus Knights] Defensive: Wounds: 12. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 18/19.5 at Rend 0 for 180 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by ilaxu 'Minute'
Adding Detail

[Sir Valiant de Quenelles]

Hi everyone!

As I told you on page 5 if my memory doesn't fail me, I prepared some conversions. (In fact, a simple ones) to play demigryphs on my Bretonnian army. Let me show you the results! The idea is mix the medieval hunting replacing current hounds by those wonderful Gryph Hounds of Age of Sigmar. I know it's not a complex conversion, but give some personality and a bit of difference from the other units on my army.

[Duke of Gisoreux]

9 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

Cavalry unit durability on the charge:

  Hide contents

[8 Knights Errant] Defensive: Wounds: 16.  Save: 4+.  Effective Wounds: 24/26 at Rend 0 for 200 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

[8 Knights of the Realm] Defensive: Wounds: 16. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 24/26 at Rend 0 for 220 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

[5 Questing Knights] Defensive: Wounds: 10. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 15/16.25 at Rend 0 for 180 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

[5 Grail Knights] Defensive: Wounds: 10. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 15/16.25 at Rend 0 for 180 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

[10 Mounted Yeomen] Defensive: Wounds: 20. Save: 6+. Effective Wounds: 23.34/23.99 at Rend 0 for 200 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

[3 Pegasus Knights] Defensive: Wounds: 12. Save: 4+. Effective Wounds: 18/19.5 at Rend 0 for 180 Points. (Bonus Re-Rolls 1's on Charge)

I am sorry, but it seems your durability numbers are wrong.

8 Knight Errant or Knights of the Realm have 32 Effective Wounds (38.4 on the charge)
5 Questing Knights or Grail Knights have 20 Effective Wounds (24 on the charge)
3 Pegasus Knights have 24 Effective Wounds (28.8 on the charge)
10 Mounted Yeomen have 24 Effective Wounds (24.83 on the charge)

A 4+ save effectively doubles the amount of wounds as you save wounds half of the time. A 5+ save adds 50% to the wounds and a 6+ save adds 20%.

• Save 6+: 120% Effective Wounds
• Save 5+: 150% Effective Wounds
• Save 4+: 200% Effective Wounds
• Save 3+: 300% Effective Wounds
• Save 2+: 600% Effective Wounds

With rerolling 1s it would be:

• Save 6+: 124% Effective Wounds
• Save 5+: 164% Effective Wounds
• Save 4+: 240% Effective Wounds
• Save 3+: 450% Effective Wounds
• Save 2+: 3600% Effective Wounds

With rerolling all fails it would be:

• Save 6+: 144% Effective Wounds
• Save 5+: 225% Effective Wounds
• Save 4+: 400% Effective Wounds
• Save 3+: 900% Effective Wounds
• Save 2+: 3600% Effective Wounds

[ilaxu 'Minute']

2 minutes ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

I am sorry, but it seems your durability numbers are wrong.

8 Knight Errant or Knights of the Realm have 32 Effective Wounds (38.4 on the charge)
5 Questing Knights or Grail Knights have 20 Effective Wounds (24 on the charge)
3 Pegasus Knights have 24 Effective Wounds (28.8 on the charge)
10 Mounted Yeomen have 24 Effective Wounds (24.83 on the charge)

A 4+ save effectively doubles the amount of wounds as you save wounds half of the time. A 5+ save adds 50% to the wounds and a 6+ save adds 20%.

• Save 6+: 120% Effective Wounds
• Save 5+: 150% Effective Wounds
• Save 4+: 200% Effective Wounds
• Save 3+: 300% Effective Wounds
• Save 2+: 600% Effective Wounds

With rerolling 1s it would be:

• Save 6+: 124% Effective Wounds
• Save 5+: 164% Effective Wounds
• Save 4+: 240% Effective Wounds
• Save 3+: 450% Effective Wounds
• Save 2+: 3600% Effective Wounds

With rerolling all fails it would be:

• Save 6+: 144% Effective Wounds
• Save 5+: 225% Effective Wounds
• Save 4+: 400% Effective Wounds
• Save 3+: 900% Effective Wounds
• Save 2+: 3600% Effective Wounds

No need to be sorry, it was my mistake for not thinking the logic through thoroughly. Thank you for the clarification.

Were the offensive numbers alright or did I make mistakes there as well?

[Duke of Gisoreux]

10 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

Were the offensive numbers alright or did I make mistakes there as well?

Your Knights Errant, Knights of the Realm and Pegasus Knights were right.

Here are my numbers. Average damage against save 4+:
8 Knights Errant: 3.13 / 3.65 (Damsel) / 5.00 (charge) / 5.83 (Damsel + charge) / 6.67 (King + charge) / 7.78 (King + Damsel + charge)
8 Knights of the Realm: 3.50 / 6.00 (charge) / 7.67 (King + charge) / 4.67 (Battlemage) / 7.67 (Battlemage + charge) / 9.81 (King + Battlemage + charge)
16 Knights of the Realm: 7.97 / 13.48 (charge) / 17.24 (King + charge) / 10.63 (Battlemage) / 17.24 (Battlemage + charge) / 22.07 (King + Battlemage + charge)
5 Questing Knights: 4.51 / 7.77 (Monster) / 5.74 (King + charge) / 9.81 (King + charge + Monster)
5 Grail Knights: 3.47 / 7.18 (charge) / 5.69 (Daemon/Death) / 10.14 (charge + Daemon/Death) / 4.84 (Enchantress) / 9.78 (Enchantress + charge) / 7.80 (Enchantress + Daemon/Death) / 13.73 (Enchantress + charge + Daemon/Death) / 9.07 (King + charge) / 12.78 (King + charge + Daemon/Death) / 10.86 (King + Enchantress + charge) / 15.19 (King + Enchantress + charge + Daemon/Death)
10 Grail Knights: just double all numbers above
3 Pegasus Knights: 1.92 / 3.86 (charge)
5 Mounted Yeomen: 1.58
10 Mounted Yeomen: 3.04
3 Demigryph Knights: 3.38 (Lance & Sword) / 3.67 (Cavalry Halberd) / 4.83 (Lance & Sword + charge) / 6.22 (Lance & Sword + Freeguild General) / 6.61 (Cavalry Halberd + Freeguild General)

 

A question I came up with:
As long as the Standard Bearers in Bretonnian Knight units just give you reroll battleshock, there seems to be no reason to actually take one in a unit as you already get that bonus from the order allegiance abilities. Is there any reason or advantage for having a standard bearer I missed?

Edited June 15, 2019 by Duke of Gisoreux
fixed some numbers

[ilaxu 'Minute']

8 minutes ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

5 Questing Knights: 4.51 / 7.77 (Monster) / 5.74 (King + charge) / 9.81 (King + charge + Monster)
5 Grail Knights: 3.47 / 7.18 (charge) / 5.69 (Daemon/Death) / 10.14 (charge + Daemon/Death) / 4.47 (Enchantress) / 8.79 (Enchantress + charge) / 7.06 (Enchantress + Daemon/Death) / 12.25 (Enchantress + charge + Daemon/Death) / 9.07 (King + charge) / 12.78 (King + charge + Daemon/Death) / 11.14 (King + Enchantress + charge) / 15.46 (King + Enchantress + charge + Daemon/Death)
10 Mounted Yeomen: 4.29

I must admit to being not entirely sure where I've gone wrong for the revised calculations I've done. Can you see the errors in these? I've redone my original calculations and edited out some of the mistakes I found but my numbers are still a little off for the Grail Knights and Mounted Yeomen and I don't think that can be attributed to rounding. (Also I realised I forgot the Rend -1 on the Greatblades, hence why the Values were low for the Questing Knights.)

Mounted Yeomen:

Spoiler

10 Mounted Yeomen:
Attacks: 
11x Spear. 4+ Hit. 4+ Wound. Rend 0. Damage 1.
20x Palfrey. 4+ Hit. 5+ Wound. Rend 0. Damage 1.
Hits: 
5.5 Spear Hits
10 Palfrey Hits.
Wounds:
2.75 Spear Wounds.
3.34 Palfrey Hits.
Damage vs 4+ Save:
1.38 Spear Damage
1.67 Palfrey Damage
Total: 3.05 Damage

Grail Knights:

Spoiler

5 Grail Knights:
Attacks:
10x Pendant Lance. 3+ Hit. 3+ Wound. Rend -1. Damage 2.
10x Warhorse. 4+ Hit. 4+ Wound. Rend 0. Damage 1.
Hits:
6.67 Pendant Lance Hits. [8.94 with with Enchantress]
5 Warhorse Hits. [7.5 with Enchantress]
Wounds:
4.47 Pendant Lance Wounds. [5.96 with Enchantress]
2.5 Warhorse Wounds. [3.75 with Enchantress]
Damage:
5.96 Pendant Lance Damage. [7.95 with Enchantress]
1.25 Warhorse Wounds. [1.88 with Enchantress]
Total: 7.21 Damage. [9.83 with Enchantress]

Questing Knights:

Spoiler

5 Questing Knights:
Attacks:
11x Greatblades. 3+ Hit. 3+ Wound. Rend -1. Damage 1.
10 x Warhorse. 4+ Hit. 4+ Wound. Rend 0. Damage 1.
Hits:
7.34 Greatblade Hits. 
5 Warhorse Hits.
Wounds:
4.89 Greatblade Wounds.
2.5 Warhorse Wounds.
Damage:
3.26 Greatblade Damage. [6.52 vs Monsters]
1.25 Warhorse Damage.
Total: 4.51 Damage. [7.77 vs Monsters]

 

[Duke of Gisoreux]

7 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

5 Grail Knights:
Attacks:
10x Pendant Lance. 3+ Hit. 3+ Wound. Rend -1. Damage 2.
10x Warhorse. 4+ Hit. 4+ Wound. Rend 0. Damage 1.
Hits:
6.67 Pendant Lance Hits. [8.89 with with Enchantress]
5 Warhorse Hits. [7.5 with Enchantress]
Wounds:
4.44 Pendant Lance Wounds. [5.93 with Enchantress]
2.5 Warhorse Wounds. [3.75 with Enchantress]
Damage:
5.93 Pendant Lance Damage. [7.90 with Enchantress]
1.25 Warhorse Wounds. [1.88 with Enchantress]
Total: 7.18 Damage. [9.78 with Enchantress]

Correct numbers in red. I think you rounded your numbers after each step. I created formulas to calculate everything at once and round only once at the end.

At Mounted Yeomen I made a mistake as I copied the formula from Pegasus Knights and forgot to change their attacks from 2 to 1. Your number is almost correct, the correct value is 3.04 not 3.05. Probably because you rounded between calculating steps.

Quote

both Demigryph Knights and Freeguild Greatswords are down in points

Demigryph Knights will have points reduction in GHB 2019, maybe from 140 down to 130 or even 120.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Duke of Gisoreux

[oscisi]

Hey guys!

I just watched Ash at GMG read through all the point changes. My beloved Chronomantic Cogs were increased from 60 to 80 points (it’s understandable but still a shame for me, since I was the only one in the local competitive scene who was using them). 

You can see the video here: 

 

According to Ash all things legacy were kept the same in terms of point values. Oh well. The good news is that the GHB 2019 will provide us with even more options for command abilities, which is an area where Bretonnia was lacking. I’ll keep my eyes peeled for any other interesting news about this 

Last edit, adding screenshot of the order page. No asterisks mean no changes:

Edited June 15, 2019 by oscisi
Added URL for the video and screenshot

[ilaxu 'Minute']

1 minute ago, oscisi said:

Hey guys!

I just watched Ash at GMG read through all the point changes. My beloved Chronomantic Cogs were increased from 60 to 80 points (it’s understandable but still a shame for me, since I was the only one in the local competitive scene who was using it). 

According to Ash all things legacy were kept the same in terms of point values. Oh well. The good news is that the GHB 2019 will provide us with even more options for command points, which is an area where Bretonnia was lacking. I’ll keep my eyes peeled for any other interesting news about this 

May the Lady save us in this time of dire news.

 

On an entirely different note, is anyone thinking about trying out the contrast paints for Bretonnians? I'm considering giving it a shot.

[Drakilian]

@oscisi If that image is anything to go off of... Bretonnia got worse.

They lost the reduced points for max sized squads.

[Duke of Gisoreux]

4 minutes ago, Drakilian said:

They lost the reduced points for max sized squads.

Actually they never had any.

[oscisi]

@Drakilian, this is what our points looked like back in the first GHB. And sadly, the point values never changed (what has changed are the names of most heroes, that we no longer have legal battalions, and that no heroes are unique anymore, so we can take many of the same if we want)

Edited June 15, 2019 by oscisi
Clarification

[Duke of Gisoreux]

That's the lastest list I came up with. I included more Demigryph Knights as their points are reduced from 140 to 130 in GHB 2019. How do you like it?

Spoiler

 

Allegiance: Hammerhal
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
King on Hippogryph (400)
- General
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
[average damage: 9.03 (9.77 charge, 16.31 Monster/Hero, 21.13 charge + Monster/Hero), effective wounds: 54.00]
Enchantress (160)
[average damage: 1.32, effective wounds: 10.00]
Damsel (100)
[average damage: N/A, effective wounds: 6.00]
Freeguild General (100)
- Shield & Lance
[average damage: 1.58 (2.25 charge), effective wounds: 15.00]

Battleline
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 24.00]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 24.00]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
[average damage: 1.38, effective wounds: 24.00]

Units
10 x Grail Knights (360)
[average damage: 9.68 (21.73 charge, 15.60 Daemon/Death, 30.37 charge + Daemon/Death), effective wounds: 41.60]
6 x Demigryph Knights (260)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 12.22 (9.33 charge), effective wounds: 57.60]
3 x Demigryph Knights (130)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 6.22 (4.83 charge), effective wounds: 28.80]
3 x Demigryph Knights (130)
- Lance and Sword
[average damage: 6.22 (4.83 charge), effective wounds: 28.80]

Total: 1880 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123

Total average damage: 56.68 (67.87 charge)
Total effective wounds: 318.30

 

All spells from Enchantress (Mystic Shield and Divine Favour) and Damsel (Divine Blessing) will be cast on the King. Together with his Master of Defense command trait and Champion of the People ability my hope is that he survives quite a while to kill as many enemy heroes and monsters as possible.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Duke of Gisoreux

[ilaxu 'Minute']

@Duke of Gisoreux I must admit that you've made a nasty looking force. Only downside is how many Demigryph Knights one needs to make up the army. 

Although based on what you have so far it's a 1,980 point list and CP now ost 50 points instead of being granted for every 50 points below the limit.

[Duke of Gisoreux]

3 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

Only downside is how many Demigryph Knights one needs to make up the army. 

I think I would use Bretonnian Knights (Knights of the Realm for example) to proxy them, although I have the required amount of Demigryph models.

3 hours ago, ilaxu 'Minute' said:

Although based on what you have so far it's a 1,980 point list and CP now ost 50 points instead of being granted for every 50 points below the limit.

Makes no difference. It was intended to have extra CPs to use the command abilities of both the King and the Freeguild General.

 

I created an alternate full Free Peoples list:

Spoiler

 

Allegiance: Free Peoples
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Freeguild General on Griffon (280)
- Shield & Greathammer
- Artefact: Armour of Meteoric Iron
 [average damage: 8.04, effective wounds: 78.00]
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Stately War Banner
- Trait: Indomitable 
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
 [average damage: 1.58 (charge: 2.25), effective wounds: 30.00, 4+ save against MWs]

Battleline
3 x Demigryph Knights (130)
- Lance and Sword
 [average damage: 3.96 (charge: 6.39), effective wounds: 28.80]
10 x Freeguild Greatswords (120)
 [average damage: 12.15, effective wounds: 30.00]
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Swords and Shields
 [average damage: 5.83, effective wounds: 90.00]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
 [average damage: 1.83, effective wounds: 45.00]
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
 [average damage: 1.83, effective wounds: 45.00]
30 x Freeguild Crossbowmen (300)
 [average damage: 9.73, effective wounds: 45.00]
10 x Freeguild Archers (100)
 [average damage: 2.25, effective wounds: 12.00]
10 x Freeguild Archers (100)
 [average damage: 2.25, effective wounds: 12.00]

Units
5 x Freeguild Outriders (120)
 [average damage: 4.52, effective wounds: 15.00]
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (120)
 [average damage: 4.94, effective wounds: 15.00]

Battalions
Freeguild Regiment (210)

Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150

Total average damage: 58.92 (62.02 charge)
Total effective wounds: 403.80

 

I have Bretonnian models for everything in the list:

Spoiler

Freeguild General on Griffon = King on Hippogryph
Freeguild General = Noble Standard Bearer
Demigryph Knights = Knights of the Realm
Freeguild Greatswords = Bretonnian Foot Knights with Two Handed Weapons
Freeguild Guard = Bretonnian Foot Knights with Handweapons and Shields
Freeguild Crossbowmen = Bretonnian Crossbowmen
Freeguild Archers = Peasant Bowmen
Freeguild Outriders = Mounted Yeomen (converted)
Freeguild Pistoliers = Mounted Yeomen

 

[ilaxu 'Minute']

9 hours ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

I think I would use Bretonnian Knights (Knights of the Realm for example) to proxy them, although I have the required amount of Demigryph models.

Hmmm, this might be an option. Have you done anything modelling wise to display the difference?

If I were to do this then I think I'd double base them, having a pair of knights represent one of the Demigryph Knights for the sake of clarity. 

 

Spoiler

Conceptual Heavy Hitters List

Order: Hammerhal: Ulgu

King on Hippogryph 400
-General
-Legendary Fighter
-Sword of Judgement

Enchantress 160

Archmage on Aelven Steed 100

10 x Freeguild Archers 100

10 x Freeguild Archers 100

10 x Freeguild Archers 100

3 x Demigryph Knights with Lances 130

3 x Demigryph Knights with Lances 130

10 x Grail Knights 360

10 x Grail Knights 360

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by ilaxu 'Minute'
Added a list concept