Ravinsild Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 If Nagash were to go into the warp and be directed teleported to the skull throne right in front of Khorne himself, or if Khorne could somehow go to the material plane himself into Shyish right before Nagash, who do you think would win? Nagash fancies himself a god, but compared to the big 4 how powerful is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngSkywalker Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 Nagash will loose, against all 4 chaos gods. Especially if he went into thier realms. Same goes for most other dieties in the moral realms. Thing with chaos is that you can trick them off you are lucky but you don't beat them. Chaos operates on a different level. It is fuel by all beings, doesn't matter if they worship chaos or not. And Nagash presents and more important beliefs himself more powerful than he is. In 40k the big E and others tryed to bring chaos down by getting rid of religion, but chaos and the warp aren't fed by prayers (also they help) but raw emotion. That's how the eldar birthed slaanesh. Others tried to starve chaos by planning to erase humanity, if it would have worked it would have weakend chaos but as there where still other races left chaos still would have remained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted September 26, 2018 Author Share Posted September 26, 2018 So Khorne is the best and also probably Gork or maybe Mork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nin Win Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 Nagash's greatest weapon against Chaos is the ending of everything that feeds it. Had the necroquake been successful, eventually all the various roilings of mortal passions would have been brought to an end. Going into the Realm of Chaos to fight them on their own terms is utterly pointless compared to what Nagash attempted in Malign Portents. Long ago, Archaon defeated Nagash and while he is powerful, he is still a mortal champion. The chaos gods are infinite and only their division against themselves really offers the mortal realms any hope at all. But if the chaos gods united both between eachother and among their avatars, daemons and champions, they'd be no longer what they are. Unstoppable, but not chaos anymore. The Great Game is in their nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasshpit Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 WAAAAAGH!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted September 26, 2018 Author Share Posted September 26, 2018 9 minutes ago, Vasshpit said: WAAAAAGH!!!!! I think Gork, or maybe Mork, is an actual chaos god and could probably 1v1 Khorne and probably win. Just my personal theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 In a straight punch-up it'd be Khorne everytime. As @Nin Win says, ultimately Nagash is trying to kill the Chaos Gods by being clever and removing everything that fuels them. Ultimately Nagash believes he'll win as he can't die - if he does then he simply reforms over a number of decades as he is the God of Death. The Necroquake was to try and re-balance things as there are too many players stealing souls, what he managed to do was to "free up" all of the souls that hadn't made their way to Shyish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoshiya Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Ravinsild said: I think Gork, or maybe Mork, is an actual chaos god and could probably 1v1 Khorne and probably win. Just my personal theory. Even if Gorkamorka were a chaos god he's fed only by the power of Greenskins (Ogors take part in Waagh but don't seem to generate Waagh energy). In contrast Khorne *IS* all bloodshed everywhere caused by any mortal, sentient or otherwise (and important to note he is involved in far more worlds than just the Mortal Realms based on the Everchosen lore). He's not so much powered by it as he literally represents it as a force of nature. This makes Gorkamorka and all the other gods of the Mortal Realms mere children in contrast to the full might of the Chaos Gods. I mean look at Slaanesh. Even captured his power is felt readily across all the realms and his hosts still leave behind chaos corruption in their wake. He merely can't exert his will directly over what his power is doing. You also have to remember that ultimately every single Daemon is merely a small part of the greater being that makes up the god. This means that when one fights a host of daemons they are literally fighting a fraction of the Chaos God itself (and a greatly weakened fraction too compared to what it would be like in the realm of chaos itself). As far as I'm aware none of the gods of the Mortal Realms are capable of taking on the vast Daemon hordes that come to the Mortal Realms by themselves, so if this power was multipled thousand times they would stand no chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted September 26, 2018 Author Share Posted September 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, Yoshiya said: Even if Gorkamorka were a chaos god he's fed only by the power of Greenskins (Ogors take part in Waagh but don't seem to generate Waagh energy). In contrast Khorne *IS* all bloodshed everywhere caused by any mortal, sentient or otherwise (and important to note he is involved in far more worlds than just the Mortal Realms based on the Everchosen lore). He's not so much powered by it as he literally represents it as a force of nature. This makes Gorkamorka and all the other gods of the Mortal Realms mere children in contrast to the full might of the Chaos Gods. I mean look at Slaanesh. Even captured his power is felt readily across all the realms and his hosts still leave behind chaos corruption in their wake. He merely can't exert his will directly over what his power is doing. You also have to remember that ultimately every single Daemon is merely a small part of the greater being that makes up the god. This means that when one fights a host of daemons they are literally fighting a fraction of the Chaos God itself (and a greatly weakened fraction too compared to what it would be like in the realm of chaos itself). As far as I'm aware none of the gods of the Mortal Realms are capable of taking on the vast Daemon hordes that come to the Mortal Realms by themselves, so if this power was multipled thousand times they would stand no chance. Then why does Nagash (or even Sigmar) think they’re so strong? Nagash is really arrogant based on reading the entire Legions of Nagash Battletome. He’s mad at Sigmar, all of the Aelves in general, Slaneesh and probably a few other people just for taking souls which he thinks all belong to him. He’s even planning on getting revenge on all of them. Do you think he can really beat Sigmar, or Slaneesh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 10 minutes ago, Ravinsild said: Then why does Nagash (or even Sigmar) think they’re so strong? Nagash is really arrogant based on reading the entire Legions of Nagash Battletome. He’s mad at Sigmar, all of the Aelves in general, Slaneesh and probably a few other people just for taking souls which he thinks all belong to him. He’s even planning on getting revenge on all of them. Do you think he can really beat Sigmar, or Slaneesh? Nagash truly believes that he can rule supreme, arrogant is probably the best way of describing him as it's his nature to be like that. Although he's been defeated in the past, he's never been destroyed - to a certain extent nobody really knows if you could destroy him. Not sure if you've read Soul Wars yet, but there's one scene early on where the Chaos Gods laugh at him - until they realise what he's actually been doing and realise that they've basically ignored a huge threat, it's only down to the Horned Rat that the plan doesn't succeed. If it had succeeded there would have been nothing they could have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoshiya Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 Nagash versus Sigmar would be a lot closer. I think in a straight up fight Sigmar would win but Nagash would never engage in a straight up fight. Nagash is strong because he is smart and patient. He doesn't fight straight on but rather works out ways to undermine his opponent and he has the time to wait until that happens. As the others have mentioned he didn't plan to take out the Chaos Gods by fighting them but rather removing their source of power. He's doing the same now with the Stormcast, having worked out ways to recapture their souls and thus remove their strength of being able to fight and come back if they fail. Note also that he had set up contingencies when he didn't his big ritual, knowing that he could just let the forces of Chaos fight the forces of Order and not really engage as well as just distract people with huge armies of weak minions. He didn't engage them directly as he knew this would spell disaster for his plans that would instead deal with the issue for him. Edit: personally I think comparing any of the gods in their ability to fight each other is pointless. Each God has their own unique strengths that have given them their place as a god. Nagash has dominion over all death magics for example but in the realm of Ulgu he would likely lose to Malerion purely because the latter has greater ties to the realm and could just trick Nagash without every properly engaging his forces. Equally Alarielle would struggle in Shyish as there is little living things to draw power from but in Ghyran where the magics of life flow strongest she would be a far greater force to be reckoned with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngSkywalker Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 The thing with Nagash is his arrogance and him viewing himself more powerful then anyone else. It originates from his history. Back in the old days long past in WHFB he was the first to beat death, and not only raising the dead but also gaining immortality. This granted him power over mortals and their - sometimes forced - worship, but he rose to power by his own works not by pure worship of him. And he went unopposed for long periods, furthering his god complex. While he certainly is very powerful and god-like, he is still a mere human at the end of the day, with all the flaws and mistakes. His arrogance for example made him blind to some rats, failing his grand plan to eradicate chaos. Something that wouldn't have worked btw. as there would have been still some humans left alive as well as Nagashs servants, Ghouls, Necromancers and vampires - all more or less undead but at the same time full of emotion, thus feeding/fueling chaos. 17 minutes ago, Ravinsild said: Do you think he can really beat Sigmar, or Slaneesh? Sigmar, maybe. Depends on how Sigmars day is going - he, as Nagash, is only a ascended mortal with all human flaws. Many of the recent problems in the GA Order and Death originate from the new Gods and their way of acting still in mortal ways and their flaws and primarily ignorance and arrogance. Slaanesh? on a very, very good day, Nagash might stand a chance. But only if he manages to get through to the Princess of pleasures. Remember, while not all chaos gods are fighting brutes like Khorne, they are very powerful and trick and beat you in ways far beyond physical means. Tzeentch might be overcome in battle, only for you to realise you went right in his trap and you lose, far more than being beaten in combat. Slaanesh might seduce you way before you face him. This doesn't mean, you can't battle Chaos, slow or even halt its powers, one might even weaken them. But Chaos can't be beaten in a sense that you conquer the big 4, destroy them and get rid of them for good. Look at Slaanesh, she's chained and locked away right now, but still his power can be felt around the realms, tainting Morathi and the elven souls, erroding her prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngSkywalker Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 1 hour ago, RuneBrush said: Not sure if you've read Soul Wars yet, but there's one scene early on where the Chaos Gods laugh at him - until they realise what he's actually been doing and realise that they've basically ignored a huge threat, it's only down to the Horned Rat that the plan doesn't succeed. If it had succeeded there would have been nothing they could have done. There are bits and pices in the old Relam of chaos Books and the big BL book on chaos, where it is made clear that chaos can't be eliminated. Every action ends in them gaining (back) power. Even from Chaos themselves! When forces of Nurgle and Slaanesh clash, Khorne grows in power, as Blood is spilled, battles fought and skulls taken. When a chempion of khorne lies in sick bed due to battle wounds, nurgle gains influence. And every trick and plan Gods plan, Tzeentch profits from it. On chaos and its place in the worlds: "Chaos is a mere reflection of mortal desires and emotions. Khorne is fury and bloodlust, but also martial prowess and honour. Tzeentch is deception and ambition, but also hope and change. Nurgle is disease and entropy, but also regrowth and nurturing. Slaanesh is excess and depravity, but also beauty and artistry. They're not good guys, but they're more like fundamental forces than villains. There's definitely some ambiguity in there. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EccentricCircle Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 Nagash's plan to destroy Chaos by starving the gods of worship had merit. However I think he fundamentally failed to understand the relationship between the Realm of Chaos and the rest of the Warhammer Multiverse. I think that if the end of the Old World didn't kill the Chaos Gods then nothing will. Even if there are no living beings left in the mortal realms, and everything becomes undead it won't disolve the Realm of Chaos, as Nagash hopes. Instead they will just draw power from other facets of the multiverse (40K, Bloodbowl etc.) until mortal life reestablishes itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
123lac Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 Wouldn't Khorne be the most powerful being in all of the Warhammer universe? At least in terms of a straight up fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar Rage Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 On their own the Chaos Gods are more powerful than the others. Which makes sense because they are much older. The only god of the mortal realms that might come close is Gorkamorka (when he is whole). The Chaos Gods cannot act outside of the Realm of Chaos for too long, which is why they create demons to do their bidding. Which is why we don’t see Khorne bopping around the around the realms. The Chaos gods are too powerful for any one god to beat on their own (but we see Nagash get the closest). In fact it took 4 just to imprison Slaanesh. Out of the new gods I would say Nagash is top tier. Considering is consciousness is split among all undead, even if it’s just a splinter of him. There is a reason why Nagash is the Supreme Ruler. Sigmar is similarly powerful due to him being both powerful and a strategist. In a straight tussle Nagash gets beaten by most gods in AoS. Sigmar in particular has beaten him, both as a god and a mortal. But Nagash always comes back, he is among the most forward thinking characters in Warhammer. Second only to Tzeentch (maybe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froo Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 Honestly? Khorne would win in either scenario. He cares not from whence the blood flows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCar09 Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 Nagash is the best, he was a man and now is a GOD. Perhaps he cant win face to face at this moment... Yet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 The first chapter of soul wars gives quite an interesting take on where Nagash stands in relation to the chaos gods (don't want to spoil it for others though). Meanwhile in a straight up fight I'd put money on Abhorash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hankster Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 Didn't Archeon kick Nagash's ass? So... That's not to say Nagash isn't powerful. It's just that his power isn't in straight up fighting it's in organizing, manipulating, and playing the long game. I think if you want a chaos god for him to compete with Tzeentch would be a better comparison. There I really don't know who would win. ...actually, I think I might go with Nagash simply for his tenacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReynakZhen Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 Sigmar while just a man, defeated Nagash single-handedly. No way Nagash could beat Sigmar now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Taylor Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 Both have increased in power so I think it would be a similar match up between Sigmar and Nagash. Not to the Chaos powers. I think we need to think of them less as gods and more as entities that have always been around and exist outside the normal godhood. As I mentioned on the Rolling Bad Podcast (Shameless plug) the current gods we see in the realms are more like middle management whilst the chaos gods are more like the senior leadership (think CEO level). I truly think the Chaos gods could end the mortal realms if they really wanted to. (not the great horned rat. He doesn't count) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wilson Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 Khorne would kick his ass. Nagash has only got 16 wounds - even the big elephant has more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted September 26, 2018 Author Share Posted September 26, 2018 So he isn’t exactly powerful in the combat and fighting sense even with all his death magic.... I doubt hand of dust would work on Khorne after all. It would be fun to see Tzeentch versus Nagash though. A battle of magic users and planners who play the long game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngSkywalker Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 33 minutes ago, Ravinsild said: So he isn’t exactly powerful in the combat and fighting sense even with all his death magic.... I doubt hand of dust would work on Khorne after all. It would be fun to see Tzeentch versus Nagash though. A battle of magic users and planners who play the long game. Jep, khorne would laugh at the stupidity of using magic against him. Tzeentch probably would outsmart and out magic Nagash, although he would enjoy the challenging distraction that Nagash provide. Tzeentch basically IS magic and trickery, none could beat him on that field, but in martial prows lies his weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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