Evocators and Wrathmongers

[King Taloren]

Ok so looking at the wrathmongers this is a really bad day for someone with this little rules interaction.

Wrathmongers: when a model is slain you may choose one of you enemy’s models and attack as if it was your own. It can attack itself, it’s unit or a different unit from your opponents army if it has range. 

Evocator: after resolving all attacks from this unit pick a unit within 3” and roll two dice for each model in this unit for every 4+ deal a mortal wound.

The evocator ability is not restricted to the combat phase it even once per anything. It is after resolving attacks...

 

so my question here... I think it feels fairly obvious the Evocator can use this ability after the weathmonger forces him to attack...

ao if it does get to use this who gets the roll and choose the mortal wounds?

[Lior'Lec]

Core Rules, page 232

Making Attacks insert defines the attack sequence as: 

1 Hit Roll

2 Wound Roll

3 Save Roll

4 Determine Damage

 

Again on page 233

Allocating Wounds

     Once all of a unit’s attacks have been resolved, add up the damage that was inflicted. The player commanding the target unit must then allocate a number of wounds to the target unit equal to the damage inflicted.

     I’m no expert but as I read the rules: Evocator’s ability would generally proc after damage is inflicted/allocated but by the wording of the rules should actually be done before damage is allocated. Then damage is allocated, the Wrathmonger’s ability procs because a model(s) is slain, wrathmonger’s player then gets to use one Evocator to attack (as if were a unit of one figure) and can proc the ability one more time (but with only two dice as it is effectively now a unit of one).

[Rekmeister]

3 hours ago, King Taloren said:

after resolving all attacks from this unit pick a unit within 3” and roll two dice for each model in this unit for every 4+ deal a mortal wound.

The ability triggers 'after resolving all attacks from this unit'  so it wouldn't trigger off of a single Evocator making an attack.

[Rekmeister]

'All attacks from this unit' is the net amount of all the attacks the entire unit can make, not all the attacks of a single model in the unit. Only time the rules would interact the way you're suggesting is when the unit of Evocators is only one model big.

[Kevlar1972]

8 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Ok so looking at the wrathmongers this is a really bad day for someone with this little rules interaction.

Wrathmongers: when a model is slain you may choose one of you enemy’s models and attack as if it was your own. It can attack itself, it’s unit or a different unit from your opponents army if it has range. 

Evocator: after resolving all attacks from this unit pick a unit within 3” and roll two dice for each model in this unit for every 4+ deal a mortal wound.

The evocator ability is not restricted to the combat phase it even once per anything. It is after resolving attacks...

 

so my question here... I think it feels fairly obvious the Evocator can use this ability after the weathmonger forces him to attack...

ao if it does get to use this who gets the roll and choose the mortal wounds?

Wrathmonger ability happens as soon as a model is slain.  It only uses the attack profile not the out of phase ability.  So you resolve the wrathmonger attacks if one is slain, then finish the evocator attacks, then do the evocator ability.  

I don't think they really conflict.

[King Taloren]

Well actually you finish all the evocators attacks before actually dealing the damage that slays models for the wrathmonger proc. But the damage is part of the resolution step and since it is immeadiately activated on being slain I guess it interrupts the resolution of the evocator unit. The. Evocator attacks himself or his friends and then they all use their ability for the 4+. The out of sequence though creates an odd vacuum where the evocator have now technically resolved two sets of attacks  and their ability activates after attacking sequence or not. Though I guess an argument can be made for that since still in the middle of resolving a set of evocator attacks already you can’t sandwich two sets of their ability inside the resolution of attacks they were already in the middle of resolving.

Edited September 20, 2018 by King Taloren

[King Taloren]

6 hours ago, Rekmeister said:

The ability triggers 'after resolving all attacks from this unit'  so it wouldn't trigger off of a single Evocator making an attack.

It doesn’t specify that all the evocators have to attack just that all the attacks made for the unit are resolved a single evocator can still attack and be the only attacker in the unit that then resolves and allows the ability to activate. Otherwise the ability wouldn’t work unless you had all the evocators piled in against an enemy target to attack. Which when dealing with 6and more with base sizes you can end up have one or two evocators in the back line that won’t be able to attack anything.

Edited September 21, 2018 by King Taloren

[King Taloren]

the rule means all eligible evocators that can attack have resolved their attacks . Gross evocators  - evocators that cannot attack= Net evocator attacks that can activate the ability. 

That is what I am saying. All eligible evocators have attacked in this theory of events. A single evocator is the only onewith an eligibility to attack because of the wrathmonger ability that allows it to immediately attack and interrupt the original fight sequence. The question becomes if this attack allows for a use of the evocator ability before the final resolution of the original attack with the entire unit of evocators.

 

 

And if it is eligible then who contols the evocator for the ability? When does the control of the evocator revert back to the original player?