Wrathmongers: Does its Bloodfury ability generate victory points for the enemy army?

[tarquinmccoy]

Hi all:

 

I started playing Age of Sigmar earlier this year; immensely-complicated game, but also incredibly fun, and incredibly rewarding.  Very happy to be into the hobby.  Thank you for having me.

 

I’m looking for people’s input with respect to the application of the Wrathmongers’ “Bloodfury” ability.  By way of background, the Wrathmongers’ warscroll provides (summarizing) that each time a model from that unit is slain during the combat phase, it can cause an enemy model within 2” to immediately attack itself.  My friends and I had a disagreement during last night’s match regarding how the rule should be applied in pitched matches.

 

The setup was as follows: 3 players­­—Khorne (me); Stormcast; and Nighthaunt— using the Triumph and Treachery ruleset; in a scenario where, e.g., slaying 5 models belonging the enemy teams earned you 1 victory point.  Enter my unit of Wrathmongers.  When my friend moved to attack them with his Stormcast units in the combat phase, and successfully slew a model, he triggered the Bloodfury ability.  My friend rolled the necessary attacks for his models, and ended up dealing 5+ wounds to his own unit. 

 

Where I had inflicted 5+ wounds, I went to record the result as a victory point.  One of my friends (politely) stopped me, and commented that it was not me who had slain his models, but in fact he who had done so—because they were his models that performed the slaying.  I responded that it was my unit’s warscroll ability that had caused the wounds to be effected (i.e. the unit’s ability forcing my friend’s unit to attack itself), and even if it were his models performing the actual, physical act of bludgeoning, said bludgeoning would not have occurred but for my model’s ability directly precipitating that outcome.  I thus contended that it seemed to be in keeping with the spirit of the game that the resulting victory points would go to me.  To no avail.  We ended up resolving the issue temporarily by agreeing that neither army would receive Bloodfury-generated victory points for that match, with the understanding that we would avail ourselves of the Internet’s collective wisdom and and knowledge for counsel.

 

I earnestly do not believe that my friends’ interpretation of the Bloodfury / points issue to be in keeping with the spirit of the game.  However, I empathize that they do.  On my end, I view it no differently than I would regard a loosed arrow, loosened bounder, etc.—after all, no one would ever think to credit the arrow for a kill over the archer who had fired it.  I also suspect Games Workshop would not intend for one, discrete warscroll ability to be treated differently from every other (or nearly) ability in the game.  Conversely, my friends submit that whichever model dealt the killing below should result in victory points to that model’s owner.

 

If you’ve made it this far, thank you very much for taking the time to make it through such a long read.  My friends and I have encountered several rules issues / ambiguities before, though I believe this is the first one we weren’t able to resolve by simply discussing it.  Consequently, we would welcome your thoughts, comments, suggestions, analogies, etc. regarding how the rule should be applied.  If there’s any other information anyone needs to be able to chime in, just let me know.  Thanks in advance!

[heywoah_twitch]

So normal battleplan victory points has each player "add up the points value of any enemy units that have been destroyed during the battle". Much like khorne, the game cares not how they died, only that they did. In triumph and treachery it is worded differently, but the wrathmonger ability itself has me side with you.

The wrathmonger ability reads "immediately attack with the enemy model you chose as though it were part of your army" that seems pretty cut and dry that it is you who get the victory points here. You are making the decisions and rolling the dice, and it is you who are controlling the unit that inflicts wounds (for say Right of Conquest), and it is still an enemy model for 'slain enemy models' requirements.

[Isotop]

I think @heywoah_twitch is right here - the "as thought it was part of your army" -part makes it pretty clear it is you who slays the models. In addition, I may have found an analogy that could possibly help to convince your mates. Did you guys use damage dealing Endless Spells in your game? If yes, how did you handle the matter regarding the Victory Points? If no, how do you think your mates would have handled it? An Endless spell model does not "belong" to any army, but is only temporary controlled/moved by a player - so I think they represent a similar situation to your Wrathmonger problem.

[King Taloren]

The wrathmonger’s ability is pretty explicit that it counts as being part of your army for the duration of the attack so yeah all wounds inflicted with the ability would count for triumph and treachery. 

I don’t know about treating it like an endless spell as a way to explain it. I believe Triumph states that after the initial casting endless spells that slay models do not count for any side regardless of who is moving them, like how they do not affect bravery tests for models slain after the initial cast because the movements happen before the turn or even any phase in which a slain model would count for vp actually begins.

The ability itself is pretty explanatory as worded. Another way to claim it is that your wrathmonger is using the attack from your opponents warscroll as he is dying instead. Sort of similar to Skaven Pestilens with Rabid Fever if that makes it easier to understand.

[tarquinmccoy]

These answers were incredibly helpful, all.  Thank you very much.