Plague Wind

[KeX]

Hi

GOU got Plague Wind spell. So my question is when he drawing that line is he hitting himself with that line or not?

Thanks

[Domowoj]

15 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Reread the FAQ. It states the spell/ability starts from the edge of the base. It infers nothing about that hitting another edge doesn’t mean it crosses over. It only states the model you draw the line from can’t hit itself because the line starts on the wrong side of the models base to count. It says nothing about crossing other edges or how much of a model the line has to go over to be considered crosses over.

Putting two models b2b and trying to say you can’thit both in what seems like a rather obvious move because a line slips between two touching bases cause the line is 0 width and doesn’t cross is power gaming.

1. You are contradicting yourself.  Here is the logic: Two models in b2b contact only share 1 point of contact. A line trying to touch both models, can only touch that 1 point. Forget about direction. A line can't cross anything unless it travels from one point on something to another point on the same thing; this is the reasoning in the FAQ for why a GUO doesn't hit himself (because it starts on his edge, which is a single point, and doesn't travel to any other point on the model).  A line can only cross over one of the models.

2. This is not power-gaming. This is a basic principle of mathematics, which is very important to understand in a game of spacial measurement.

3. I am a Nurgle player, and I would prefer that the spell hit both models. I am only stating this to show that I don't have a bias toward this ability mechanic not working the way you think it does. I would never try to knowingly take advantage of a rules discrepancy during the course of normal game-play, and I think trying to hit both models with the spell is beardy. I am sorry that it seems like we won't be seeing eye-to-eye on this matter.

[Isotop]

1 hour ago, King Taloren said:

You basically just reiterated everything I just said in my last post. And how  many posts did I say the spell says crossed over so it doesn’t matter if the spell touched the GUO or not? I’ve said it like five or six times and been ignored on it.... 

and sure b2b will happen but the whole thing started with a comment about how setting two models b2b with the GUO and with each other meant you couldn’t hit both with a spell because of line drawing. Which means the way to avoid this is just to not try to hit both!!! So easy to avoid!! OMG what?

 

Im done this is going nowhere and you guys are bringing  up things I said already to contradict me when I had pointed out the contradictions myself in multiple posts that I guess you guys are ignoring just to keep this going.

I think we should really break this down into a more comprehensible structure:

(1) A line touching a model = the line has exactly one intersection with the model´s base

       A line crossing a model = the line has exactly two intersections with the model´s base

(2) FAQ tells us the line touches (0" distance to the GUO) but does not cross the GUO´s base.

(3) The line in question has a width of 0" (reinforced by the warscroll stating "the center of the line")

(4) Two models base-to-base to each other resemble two circles with exactly one intersection

      (this is not what really happens on a microscopical level, but we all assume this by accepting b2b-models are 0" from each other)

 

Which of these point you do not agree with, @King Taloren? Just to make myself clear, I do not want to hammer you for your opinion. In fact, deducing from your previous posts I have seen, I respect your opinion and argumentative points greatly. Therefore I want to settle this topic in a clear and organized manner everyone reading it can follow and understand.

 

 

[King Taloren]

19 minutes ago, Domowoj said:

There are a couple points.

1. The situation that you would have two different units piled-in-tightly on a GUO is very plausible and not at all uncommon. Imagine a unit of infantry with a support hero are both charging a GUO; that non-GUO-controlling player would want as many models in b2b contact to maximize their attacks. So the thinking that you can avoid debating rules situations by avoiding b2b contact is invalidated because you can't necessarily control it.  In general, the concept of avoiding situations because you aren't clear on the rules, is a poor strategy because it limits your choices. And it's better to get a good grasp on the rules anyway, because it allows game-play to become more fluid.

2.  According to the rules, the line starts at the edge of the GUO's base ("draw a line from..."), which means it's touching the GUO (as opposed to an infinitesimal space between). You argue that this is irrelevant, but it matters for defining the next part: Touching a base is not the same as crossing over (The GUO would certainly be affected by the spell if it used the term "within" instead of "crossed"). Therefore...

3. According to the rules, the GUO can only choose, in this example, one of those units to hit with Plague Wind.

You basically just reiterated everything I just said in my last post. And how  many posts did I say the spell says crossed over so it doesn’t matter if the spell touched the GUO or not? I’ve said it like five or six times and been ignored on it.... 

and sure b2b will happen but the whole thing started with a comment about how setting two models b2b with the GUO and with each other meant you couldn’t hit both with a spell because of line drawing. Which means the way to avoid this is just to not try to hit both!!! So easy to avoid!! OMG what?

 

Im done this is going nowhere and you guys are bringing  up things I said already to contradict me when I had pointed out the contradictions myself in multiple posts that I guess you guys are ignoring just to keep this going.

[Domowoj]

15 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

According to you both the situation is only going to rule against the GUO that he either hits one or none so what was the point again? 

There are a couple points.

1. The situation that you would have two different units piled-in-tightly on a GUO is very plausible and not at all uncommon. Imagine a unit of infantry with a support hero are both charging a GUO; that non-GUO-controlling player would want as many models in b2b contact to maximize their attacks. So the thinking that you can avoid debating rules situations by avoiding b2b contact is invalidated because you can't necessarily control it.  In general, the concept of avoiding situations because you aren't clear on the rules, is a poor strategy because it limits your choices. And it's better to get a good grasp on the rules anyway, because it allows game-play to become more fluid.

2.  According to the rules, the line starts at the edge of the GUO's base ("draw a line from..."), which means it's touching the GUO (as opposed to an infinitesimal space between). You argue that this is irrelevant, but it matters for defining the next part: Touching a base is not the same as crossing over (The GUO would certainly be affected by the spell if it used the term "within" instead of "crossed"). Therefore...

3. According to the rules, the GUO can only choose, in this example, one of those units to hit with Plague Wind.

[King Taloren]

4 minutes ago, Isotop said:

In my opinion "Let´s not get in a situation like that in the first place" is a terrible and not at all easy way to solve a rules problem. 

I really do not get the way you promote your view of the FAQ stating the line starts 0,0000...1" away from the base instead of 0" and at the same time promoting the "easy" solution for disputes (please correct me if I am wrong about this point).

Ok both are easy in my head. The FAQ states “ the line is drawn from the model’s edge, so the model is not under the line.” I think people are getting hung up on what that means for where the line starts exactly. You do not draw the line on any part of the model. But start it at the exact point the model ends and the rest of the table begins. If you put your tape measure where the tape measure touches the table and the base of the model, that is where the line starts. I would do a diagram but I’m on my phone right now, if i need to show a picture of what I am talking about I will when I get home. The line and what it does do not affect the model from which the line is being drawn from. To make it easier you just treat th line as though it is not actually in contact with the model so there is no argument about whether or not the line affects the model because the line has to be in contact with a model to affect it. 

Hopefully that is clear enough.

And let’s try to avoid a situation that is silly is valid. How often are you going to put two separate Heros/units b2b with a GUO and try to put them b2b with each other as well? Outside of surrounding him so he can’t escape, which think is bonus for him because now he can favored poxes and just sit there while the rest of his army comes to bash you in for attacking the GUO instead of them. Ok he has to pick one of the other for plaguewind... he was going to have to do that anyway before you bunched up on him with these two hero’s/units and crowded together to what effect? If he can’t hit both why even bring up the question for a silly thing cause I’d be super salty if I tried that and then “nope you can’t cross the bases like that cause it goes right between and someone then didn’t let me aim differently now that I was armed with that knowledge.

 

And I’m not a nurgle player I’m just looking for fairness in playing. If we are going to argue you can aim down the middle of two touching models and miss. Why is the point being brought up of it is an impossible situation to even aim that way? If I was GUO and knew of that it would only be question of what is more problematic and needs to die more over can I hit two Heros with one spell. According to you both the situation is only going to rule against the GUO that he either hits one or none so what was the point again?

[Isotop]

46 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

I was done with the conversation when I posted how I treat the faq to mean. It works as an idea of what is being said in the faq that gives it a treatment that makes a little more sense. (Granted another part for people to look at in the spell. The spell states cross over with the line. if you start on the closest edge toward the point it’s impossible to cross over yourself  as I’m sure they mean on the outside of the edge not on the actual base edge is where the line is started to be drawn which is also why I was arguing for hitting both models. )  there wasn’t really a reason to turn around and post about measuring things when I’m obviously being ridiculous about the distance gap between the model and said line. if I was using a more visibly obvious number I would feel more inclined on taking a correction because yeah I obviously have an issue with not knowing the rules if I had said something like 1/8 in or 1/32inches.  I don’t think anyone is going to be able to tell the difference between my line drawing and yours without me specifically saying something and how laughable is it for someone to complain about that super small distance of measuring?

And people keep seeming to ignore that I’ve posted five times let’s not get in a situation like that in the first place cause it’s super easy to avoid by spacing out a visible distance even if that distance is super small there would be no need to consider this. 

In my opinion "Let´s not get in a situation like that in the first place" is a terrible and not at all easy way to solve a rules problem. 

I really do not get the way you promote your view of the FAQ stating the line starts 0,0000...1" away from the base instead of 0" and at the same time promoting the "easy" solution for disputes (please correct me if I am wrong about this point).

[King Taloren]

8 minutes ago, Domowoj said:

I'm sorry if I've offended you. I am just trying to explain how Plague Wind works in logical terms. I am saddened that you feel butthurt, but I would rather you feel that way now than during an in-game argument.

I was done with the conversation when I posted how I treat the faq to mean. It works as an idea of what is being said in the faq that gives it a treatment that makes a little more sense. (Granted another part for people to look at in the spell. The spell states cross over with the line. if you start on the closest edge toward the point it’s impossible to cross over yourself  as I’m sure they mean on the outside of the edge not on the actual base edge is where the line is started to be drawn which is also why I was arguing for hitting both models. )  there wasn’t really a reason to turn around and post about measuring things when I’m obviously being ridiculous about the distance gap between the model and said line. if I was using a more visibly obvious number I would feel more inclined on taking a correction because yeah I obviously have an issue with not knowing the rules if I had said something like 1/8 in or 1/32inches.  I don’t think anyone is going to be able to tell the difference between my line drawing and yours without me specifically saying something and how laughable is it for someone to complain about that super small distance of measuring?

And people keep seeming to ignore that I’ve posted five times let’s not get in a situation like that in the first place cause it’s super easy to avoid by spacing out a visible distance even if that distance is super small there would be no need to consider this. 

[Domowoj]

3 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

And exactly what difference does it make in a game if my line starts infinity small distance away from the base? Are you going to actually nitpick about a distance that is impossible to discern with the naked eye or even the average tools that any wargamer will take with him for measurements? Really now?

 

Dude... please. Now I’m just feeling like you are trying to hammer in how wrong I am. I give. Mercy. Cease fire. Truce.... 

I'm sorry if I've offended you. I am just trying to explain how Plague Wind works in logical terms. I am saddened that you feel butthurt, but I would rather you feel that way now than during an in-game argument.

[King Taloren]

4 minutes ago, Domowoj said:

And I am pointing out that the core rules specifically say that the terms "measuring to" and "measuring from" mean "touching the base." In the example of this faq answer, the line is "drawn from the edge of the base" which is the same thing as "measuring from." Touching is not the same as crossing over, but is a term used to define the limits of the measurements. The line starts at zero, not 0.00000infinity1 mm.

I am not trying to be a brute about this, but I feel like it's important to understand the core rules before we engage in games, whether casual or competitive, in order to avoid disputes that would interrupt the flow of the game.

And exactly what difference does it make in a game if my line starts infinity small distance away from the base? Are you going to actually nitpick about a distance that is impossible to discern with the naked eye or even the average tools that any wargamer will take with him for measurements? Really now?

 

Dude... please. Now I’m just feeling like you are trying to hammer in how wrong I am. I give. Mercy. Cease fire. Truce.... 

[Domowoj]

1 minute ago, King Taloren said:

Sigh..... which is why I put a ridiculously small number up in the first place. It’s so small you are practically measuring from the base as is. Perhaps I should have gone .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000(infinity symbol)1 mm. My point was that the faq is just saying the saline starts there it doesn’t count as a hit or touching or crossing over the model drawing the line...

And I am pointing out that the core rules specifically say that the terms "measuring to" and "measuring from" mean "touching the base." In the example of this faq answer, the line is "drawn from the edge of the base" which is the same thing as "measuring from." Touching is not the same as crossing over, but is a term used to define the limits of the measurements. The line starts at zero, not 0.00000infinity1 mm.

I am not trying to be a brute about this, but I feel like it's important to understand the core rules before we engage in games, whether casual or competitive, in order to avoid disputes that would interrupt the flow of the game.

[King Taloren]

10 minutes ago, Domowoj said:

Measuring to or from the edge of a model's base always indicates touching the edge of that model.

Sigh..... which is why I put a ridiculously small number up in the first place. It’s so small you are practically measuring from the base as is. Perhaps I should have gone .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000(infinity symbol)1 mm. My point was that the faq is just saying the saline starts there it doesn’t count as a hit or touching or crossing over the model drawing the line...

[Domowoj]

6 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Mkay. I’ve always taken starting at edge of the base FAQ as to mean the line starts but doesn’t actually hit like there is a .000000001 mm difference between the line and the casting model. Just enough it doesn’t count as actually touching for a hit. 

Which again I prefer to leave a spacing between models so this doesn’t come up. Just a minor 1mm gap and I would have no trouble agreeing that you can’t hit both.

Measuring to or from the edge of a model's base always indicates touching the edge of that model.

[King Taloren]

15 minutes ago, Isotop said:

I should have clarified earlier: I think that "starting at the edge of his base" means the line touches the GUO´s base (what else could it mean?). The FAQ also tells us that therefore he is not "hit" himself. So my reasoning was: the FAQ generally declares that mere touching is not enough to "hit". 

To the power gaming "accusation" - I just wish to play the game correctly and by the rules (no offfense @King Taloren).

Mkay. I’ve always taken starting at edge of the base FAQ as to mean the line starts but doesn’t actually hit like there is a .000000001 mm difference between the line and the casting model. Just enough it doesn’t count as actually touching for a hit. 

Which again I prefer to leave a spacing between models so this doesn’t come up. Just a minor 1mm gap and I would have no trouble agreeing that you can’t hit both. Though on an aside the spell specifically says cross over not touch so even if you started with the line touching it doesn’t count as it has to actually cross over the model.

[Isotop]

I should have clarified earlier: I think that "starting at the edge of his base" means the line touches the GUO´s base (what else could it mean?). The FAQ also tells us that therefore he is not "hit" himself. So my reasoning was: the FAQ generally declares that mere touching is not enough to "hit". 

To the power gaming "accusation" - I just wish to play the game correctly and by the rules (no offfense @King Taloren).

[King Taloren]

1 minute ago, Domowoj said:

I think you are missing the point (get it?). Trying to argue that you can hit both models is power-gaming. The FAQ answer quoted above specifically points out that merely touching the edge of a base is not enough to count as crossing over a model.

 

 

Reread the FAQ. It states the spell/ability starts from the edge of the base. It infers nothing about that hitting another edge doesn’t mean it crosses over. It only states the model you draw the line from can’t hit itself because the line starts on the wrong side of the models base to count. It says nothing about crossing other edges or how much of a model the line has to go over to be considered crosses over.

Putting two models b2b and trying to say you can’thit both in what seems like a rather obvious move because a line slips between two touching bases cause the line is 0 width and doesn’t cross is power gaming.

[Domowoj]

6 minutes ago, Domowoj said:

The guideline is the definition of the word "line," being a one-dimensional object. There have been rules in the past where a player is instructed to draw a line with a specific width. That level of instruction has been specifically omitted here.  The phrasing "center of the line" is just ensuring that you don't use a line with any sort of physical width characteristic.  I believe that Isotop is correct. A line will only intersect at a point with the two models where they touch b2b which is not enough to "cross over."  I think you need to choose one or the other, which is only relevant if the two models are members of different units. Anything else is just pure bearditude.

1 minute ago, King Taloren said:

Yeah that’s why I’m more in favor of not doing something like that cause it just screams power gaming trying for a minute advantage. 

I think you are missing the point (get it?). Trying to argue that you can hit both models is power-gaming. The FAQ answer quoted above specifically points out that merely touching the edge of a base is not enough to count as crossing over a model.

 

 

[King Taloren]

Just now, Domowoj said:

The guideline is the definition of the word "line," being a one-dimensional object. There have been rules in the past where a player is instructed to draw a line with a specific width. That level of instruction has been specifically omitted here.  The phrasing "center of the line" is just ensuring that you don't use a line with any sort of physical width characteristic.  I believe that Isotop is correct. A line will only intersect at a point with the two models where they touch b2b which is not enough to "cross over."  I think you need to choose one or the other, which is only relevant if the two models are members of different units. Anything else is just pure bearditude.

Yeah that’s why I’m more in favor of not doing something like that cause it just screams power gaming trying for a minute advantage. 

[Domowoj]

2 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Well there is no guideline for the  width of the line or how big the center is. But at same time you said both models are b2b with each other and the GUO so the line will hit both of them because the center of the line will touch both. (With all this I’m assuming they are heroes or from separate units) pretty sure most TOs will rule in favor of the GUO hitting both. Cause the center will run over where the other two models are touching each other. Which is why it’s just better to just spread out and not get into this kind of rules argument.

The guideline is the definition of the word "line," being a one-dimensional object. There have been rules in the past where a player is instructed to draw a line with a specific width. That level of instruction has been specifically omitted here.  The phrasing "center of the line" is just ensuring that you don't use a line with any sort of physical width characteristic.  I believe that Isotop is correct. A line will only intersect at a point with the two models where they touch b2b which is not enough to "cross over."  I think you need to choose one or the other, which is only relevant if the two models are members of different units. Anything else is just pure bearditude.

[King Taloren]

Well there is no guideline for the  width of the line or how big the center is. But at same time you said both models are b2b with each other and the GUO so the line will hit both of them because the center of the line will touch both. (With all this I’m assuming they are heroes or from separate units) pretty sure most TOs will rule in favor of the GUO hitting both. Cause the center will run over where the other two models are touching each other. Which is why it’s just better to just spread out and not get into this kind of rules argument.

[Isotop]

I was imagining a literal line with zero width. I did not find any note on the warscroll saying it is a "stripe" as you suggest.

[King Taloren]

Mkay he can still draw the line and hit both bases going straight up cause they don’t say how wide the line is or how wide the center of said line is supposed to be. One could argue the line is the same width as a tape measure and long as it not either edge of the measure it is the center of the line 

[Isotop]

4 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

The line starts at the edge of the base of the GUO. But it doesn’t say which way the line has to go after that point so just as janky as trying to b2b to try and stop him from hitting all your models he can just draw the line in a weird way to cross over both of them. Really just be eaiser to flank him and spread out so he has to actually choose what to hit

He has to pick a point and draw the line between that point and the closest part of the caster (see https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG-Great-unclean-one.pdf). How could  he  achieve to "hit" both models in the scenario described above?

[King Taloren]

The line starts at the edge of the base of the GUO. But it doesn’t say which way the line has to go after that point so just as janky as trying to b2b to try and stop him from hitting all your models he can just draw the line in a weird way to cross over both of them. Really just be eaiser to flank him and spread out so he has to actually choose what to hit. The only thing the FAQ infers is that GUO can’t hit himself because the spell starts on the outside edge of his base and so he doesnt hit himself with his own spell.

[Isotop]

Deducing from the FAQ there is a neat little trick you can pull off. If you put two of your models base-to-base with the GUO and in base-to-base with each other, the GUO will not be able to "hit" both of your models with the line - the best he can do is touching both of them in a single point (which apparently is not enough to "hit" them).

Am I getting this right?

[KeX]

Tnx