Battletomes, a bygone era?

[chord]

They need to break from the app model.  I don't want to look at my phone, when I have a nice multi form factor laptop available.  Let me use my laptop.  Plus the app model all purchases are tied to that platform.  needs to be cross platform.

[EMMachine]

28 minutes ago, chord said:

They need to break from the app model.  I don't want to look at my phone, when I have a nice multi form factor laptop available.  Let me use my laptop.  Plus the app model all purchases are tied to that platform.  needs to be cross platform.

It is actually possible to use the app on a pc or laptop, if you have android. There is a program named "Android-Emulator Nox App Player".  You can install the AoS-App in it, log in with your normal google account and use it like you would use it on your phone.

[Kevlar1972]

Bluestacks is good for emulating the AOS app.

 

What I do is cut my battletomes up and put them in a binder with those plastic page inserts.  When a page gets updated print a new one off the app or off the GW site and replace the outdated one.

[Kirjava13]

1 minute ago, Kevlar1972 said:

What I do is cut my battletomes up

Hang him!

[Kevlar1972]

1 minute ago, Kirjava13 said:

Hang him!

Hah!  I've got stacks of armybooks going back to 3rd edition.  All useless!

[Overread]

You realise some people still play old editions - you can flog them on ebay or Bartertown or here to some who are interested in old rules sets. Nostalgia and curiosity plus some like to collect them for their chosen faction(s) for the lore that the Battletomes contain.  

[SuperHappyTime]

17 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Yes it's a clickbait title. But discussion should be had on it. 

 

With the latest beastmen book coming out introducing a swathe of changes to tzaangor models making even less of the disciples of tzeentch book correct, on top of points changes and battalion alterations, faqs etc etc it's basically redundant to new players looking to play 

With new Faqs coming out 2 weeks after releasing the book, potentially making large parts of it incorrect to the print, from warscrolls to battalions to points. 

 

Is there much point to battletomes anymore ?

Aside from. The lore, faction internal factions (colour schemes) pretty pictures etc the rest of the content could be irrelevant soon after print.

 

So, should the points and battalions and warscrolls be removed entirely ?

With more empahsis being given to solid art work, lovely back story, colour scheme ideas for your army, design art work for models, pictures, and narrative gaming etc etc 

 

Then if you want the points it should be access entirely via the app or website, with any and all alterations made to the warscroll itself  so there is no confusion about versions and Faqs etc.

 

I’m in the strange camp that once a Warscroll has been made, or at least updated from the original release, it should never be altered again. Change the points all you would like, but the rules on there should never change.

Only a slight aside, as this applies to every battletome minus SCE, Nighthaunt, and Beasts, but every time they add a new feature (Allegiance abilities, Endless Spells) they invalidate or outdate the battletome. Not to mention my other favorite problem of having rules in ten different books/places.

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Why cant you use the tzzangor warscroll from the DoT book? FAQ states you can use whichever version of the warscroll you want as long as your opponent knows.

Rules say to use the most up to date one now, that was old 

[kenshin620]

Maybe it'll be too much clutter but I think it would be nice if

Battletomes came in 2 parts, the fluff/art/painting guide

And then a Rules section (completely separate book).

 

Warhammer End Times did right? I think was useful so you didn't need to lug around a 200 page book for 20 pages of rules. This made gameplay easier (well the rules book was still pretty big) and you didn't have to worry about harming your fluff!

Also maybe make GHB have a "Matched play/Pitched battle" booklet so once again you don't have to lug a big ol book.

 

[Overread]

The thing is the concept of the Battletome is to present rules, fluff and some painting/model tips all under one publication. For GW its a good catch all product. The more keen fan might well use free resources or warscroll cards instead, but the Battletome might not be made for them. It's made for the newbie who wants to get into an army EASILY and quickly. One purchase and they are good to go - yes in time it might fall a bit out of date here and there, but the overall structure and army composition will remain the same. 

 

Just look at how confusing it is to get into AoS now if you want an army without a battletome. A new person has to ask to fnid out where the rules are for those myriad of little factions. Give them a battletome and they can easily and quickly see what to get or even just what to read at the store when they are browsing the big display of Codex/Battletomes. 

 

Honestly I can't see GW ever getting rid of them, they work too well for the vast majority of people

[AverageBoss]

I would prefer if books were still and option, if for nothing else than fluff and art resource.

But everything should be available on cards. Warscrolls, battalions, spells, artifacts, allegiance abilities, etc. They can all be offered in card pack, have free printer friendly versions online, and have a print on demand service. The latter two are extra helpful for when errata takes place. They should also have a section on their website listing all warscrolls (and everything else) that have seen erratas, with dates for when each errata took place, with pdf groupings by faction.

[kenshin620]

13 minutes ago, Overread said:

 One purchase and they are good to go

Unless it's chaos! Then you get into the can of worms of God keywords.

[chord]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

It is actually possible to use the app on a pc or laptop, if you have android. There is a program named "Android-Emulator Nox App Player".  You can install the AoS-App in it, log in with your normal google account and use it like you would use it on your phone.

I meant a supported method, but true one could go that route.

[Akempist]

Part of the problem for me is that it feels like they're laying the track as the train comes and it's hard to make rules that stand up over a longer period of time if the game keeps changing (and thus voiding out swaths of older - like 1 year old - battletomes).

I think a lot of the confusion for newer players might be mitigated if they consolidated more concretely all the myriad of minor factions.  Chaos right now has 19 factions, some (Khorne, Tzeentch) have a ton of back story and information and an army of different models to choose from, most have a blurb and a handful of models - or worse (Everchosen) have a ton of back story and 3 models.  What's the difference between "Monsters of Chaos" and "Monstrous Arcanum"?  But yet they are all conceptually "on the same level" as the major factions.  

Order is even worse...31 factions and most with no battletome and a handful of possible models.  But then some factions like Stormcast have had 4 battletomes.  What's the difference between "Dispossessed" and "Dwarfs"?  Why would Lion Rangers (with 2 models) be a faction with the same standing as Stormcast (from the point of view of the app)?  We've had two Elf releases (Ioneth Deepkin and Daughters of Khaine) but they're both highly specialized sub-communities of what might be considered the larger standard Aelf population (I know they're missing, blah blah).  Same with dwarves (Fyreslayers and KO).   It's like they keep creating minor factions that are unique enough to secure property rights.  For a new player though it's all very confusing.  Unless you have some knowledge of the game and the factions it looks like a hot mess.

I realize they're trying to incorporate older model ranges and that this openness provides opportunities for future development or for fans to do creative things.  That's all cool.  It just doesn't seem very organized.  Point being I think all the confusion contributes to the limited value of printed battletomes.  (Though I too prefer them over the digital versions....now if they updated the digital versions as changes are made so you only had to buy it once....well maybe then...).

[kenshin620]

20 minutes ago, Akempist said:

It just doesn't seem very organized. 

Well the problem stems from GW (supposedly and all but confirmed after years of experience from the various editions) updating through their own tastes.

 

If no one on their design team goes "hey lets update Ironjawz", well guess what...they aren't going to update Ironjawz.

 

40k 8th edition rapid fire codex after codex update is an anomaly true, but thats due to 8th NOT being a reboot (vs WFB to Sigmar) but instead being an overhaul of rules, namely vehicles.

[Dead Scribe]

I hope rules eventually can be had without needing to buy books, because quite frankly I have no interest in fluff or art and it can be annoying having to shell out money for a book just to get 2-3 pages of allegiance abilities and a bunch of wasted pages that I'll never look at.

[erasercrumbs]

Coincidentally, the initial spate of Battletomes were little more than flavor text and art. The only unique rules content they featured were Battalions. My Pestilens Battletomes is worthless from a gaming standpoint. But I wouldn't want to give it up. After all, it indirectly alludes that Lord Skrolk is continuing to plague the world(s) as Skrolok Lifebane, which makes my tail twitch with joy.

[Future]

I think point values and warscrolls should not be in battletomes. I understand the need for printed material (so print it out) but it creates big inflexibility when balancing. I love the xwing 2.0 app. You can even adjust unit values depending on game mode. So you could technically filter the app by skirmish mode or path to glory or any other sub game and see the points / max points allowed in that case.

Releasing books should be a thing of the past for rules. Give us art, lore, stories, unit descriptions, I love it. Just not rules that always change in 2 weeks (or pre release like space wolfs) and will change again every 6 months. Maybe let the generals handbook have all the stats and point values since its published every year for anti tech people. So at least they have a mostly current snapshot of the game. 

[kenshin620]

In a way, Privateer Press kind of realized this. Their Faction Books are 100% unnecessary from a gaming standpoint. Their units all come with their unit cards and they constantly add in new units that were not present in the books. Not to mention they can change units radically through the CID. So the books exist really for fluff and art.

Plus maybe its me but I thought their Grymkin book was amazing. Unlike most books that standardize Fonts and etc like an encyclopedia/history book, the Grymkin had radically different styles for each unit from grisly poems to  writings of half insane eye witnesses to the Gremlins themselves vandalizing their own pages to make them sound buff and awesome.

 

[Lord_Skrolk]

2 hours ago, erasercrumbs said:

After all, it indirectly alludes that Lord Skrolk is continuing to plague the world(s) as Skrolok Lifebane, which makes my tail twitch with joy.

Man-things were not supposed to tell-speak of my plan... 

[Nos]

6 hours ago, Overread said:

The thing is the concept of the Battletome is to present rules, fluff and some painting/model tips all under one publication. For GW its a good catch all product. The more keen fan might well use free resources or warscroll cards instead, but the Battletome might not be made for them. It's made for the newbie who wants to get into an army EASILY and quickly. One purchase and they are good to go - yes in time it might fall a bit out of date here and there, but the overall structure and army composition will remain the same. 

 

Just look at how confusing it is to get into AoS now if you want an army without a battletome. A new person has to ask to fnid out where the rules are for those myriad of little factions. Give them a battletome and they can easily and quickly see what to get or even just what to read at the store when they are browsing the big display of Codex/Battletomes. 

 

Honestly I can't see GW ever getting rid of them, they work too well for the vast majority of people

It's confusing to get into AOS because the system as a whole is inelegant. Battletomes make it somewhat easier but at root what you need to play a game of AOS in respect to components, models, knowledge, rulebooks is hilariously archaic at this point. The rules are somewhat streamlined and that's great but they've just moved all the chaff into other multiple areas. There is so much cross referencing required, it's not remotely intuitive.

[AGPO]

8 hours ago, chord said:

They need to break from the app model.  I don't want to look at my phone, when I have a nice multi form factor laptop available.  Let me use my laptop.  Plus the app model all purchases are tied to that platform.  needs to be cross platform.

This this a thousand time this! I hate having to pay twice, or even three times if you want the app, PDF and hard copy for what's just the same material.

The biggest issue with eighth for me was the rules creep, and it's now getting really out of hand for AOS. I now need the GHB, malign sorcery, my battle tome, any allied battle tomes, times which contain updated versions of my units (beasts of chaos) and, if I'm into competitive play you probably need every other tome out there too.  The idea behind the app was genius - give everyone their rules and fluff in one place and keep the books and PDFs for those who wanted hardcopies. 

In terms of profit, I think it makes sense for GW to treat rules as a loss leader. Most of us have a fixed hobby budget/disposable income, so in most cases the money we save on the tomes will just go on more minis. All it does is remove a barrier to entry for new players and those starting new armies. The lower the start up costs, the more likely a player is to take the leap. 

[Aelfric]

10 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Rules say to use the most up to date one now, that was old 

If one Tzaangor warscrol has the Beasts of Chaos keyword and the other does not, then surely they are two different warscrolls for different types of Tzaangor, not two versions of the same unit.

[Brightstar]

10 hours ago, Kevlar1972 said:

 

 

What I do is cut my battletomes up and put them in a binder with those plastic page inserts.  When a page gets updated print a new one off the app or off the GW site and replace the outdated one.

That's what I have done since aos started and works well.

I think ditching battletomes and going over to a card pack with a fluff booklet is the way to go. It would be much easier to update 1 card. 

I think its silly allegiant abilities, artifacts, aren't on cards.

[svnvaldez]

On 9/19/2018 at 9:59 AM, Dead Scribe said:

I hope rules eventually can be had without needing to buy books, because quite frankly I have no interest in fluff or art and it can be annoying having to shell out money for a book just to get 2-3 pages of allegiance abilities and a bunch of wasted pages that I'll never look at.

I hope everyone  is aware this is already case. GW probably knows it as well. You can find all the books easily on various sites. 

I buy the books for the lore and art. I see them as luxury goods. Tournament players have all the rules for all the top armies and PDFs printed in a binder.