Why SCE is doing even worse in tournaments compared with previous version?

[Mark Williams]

8 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Me, nah I wouldn’t complain (ignoring all of the comments I wrote) 

the only reason I infiltrated your domain, is to find some new skaven players.?

 

I was actually really interested in skaven from a distance, until Iread the lore and realized they were chaos. All these years I thought they were destruction.

[Skreech Verminking]

23 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

I was actually really interested in skaven from a distance, until Iread the lore and realized they were chaos. All these years I thought they were destruction.

Don’t worry my friend, 

even If the skaven race is a part of chaos right now, they still only work on their own and don’t show loyalty to any of the four (weakest)  chaos gods, Slaanesh, Khorne, Tzeentch or even Nurgle

[ledha]

19 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

 

Question.

what is exactly the issue with the new battletome your speaking of.

is it not having enough units, having to less good (maybe overpowered) battalions, pointsproblems, no variation between units, or did the allegiance ability get worse?

 

 

It feel like a missed occasion.

Olds units that needed a update were either left untouched (prosecutors, liberators), nerfed (paladins as a whole, ), or replaced by new and WAY better units, resulting in a hilariously bad internal balance.

All the new named characters are from Hammers of Sigmars, forcing you to take it if you want to play them.

Same for the command traits and items. Stormcast were very reliant on Staunch Defenders or few very good items. Not only they didn't changed any of the command trait and items, they IMPROVED staunch defenders to make it cumulative with cover save.

While the new mechanics are cool (within => wholly within, 6+ becoming 6 unmodified, rule of 1 on prayers), taking those nerfs feels hard when others faction, like Khorne, Daughter of Khaine, Legion of Nagash or Fyreslayers are still untouched by it, and can buff the world with ton of "whithin" abilities or stacking of prayers.

ALL the old battalion were promptly killed, with the sole exception of the Skyborne Slayers. They are not even "very average but i can take it because it look cool", they are all BAD, expensive and don't make any sense (hey, let's pay 160 pts and take 3 units of Vanguard Hunters so the Vanguard Palladors roll 9 dices instead of 6 when using aetheric winds ! ) . Only 2, Skyborne Slayers and Cleansing Phalanx are good, and the Soulstrike Brotherhood at least is cool, gimmicky and original. Everything else suxx.

The Stormhost feel like a missed occasion, being very inequal (Hammers and Anvils >>> the rest)

The new battletome is not bad, but they COULD have rework some olds units, they COULD have rebalance our items/command traits, they COULD have add new characters for everyone (why do we have Aventis and Astreia when Grymn, Gardus or Syrocco are still waiting for a mini ???), they COULD have not killed all our bataillion (they even deleted the aetherstrike force ! ) and they COULD have not put new units that are hilariously betters than the old one.

There is still very good things in the battletome : the new allegiance traits are awesome and the vanguard units are good now, but they could have done so much

[JackStreicher]

11 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

https://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/world-of-poker/Why-you-have-to-let-weaker-players-win-occassionally_101770/

Maybe not the best link, but that’s the scientific basis behind why I said what I said. The short of it is that the game wouldn’t be as profitable for GW if it were a more balanced game, as people who couldn’t win with strategy alone would essentially just quit and not play anymore. The imbalances in the various lists give people who couldn’t win in a chess-like scenario the means and tools to do it at the list-building stage instead.

This does underline everything you said apart from what I quoted  

i never judged the rest of what you said, I just said that it‘s not right that people „quit when they don‘t excel in something“

quitting because you are getting stomped 24/7 is different to not excelling at sth. =}

 

 

I assume that GW has nothing of the sort in mind. They use rules as a selling point. They only crudely balance rules since they rather add thematic rules that add to fun. (Tbh balancing rules across such a variety of races would result in less diversity, armies would almost mirror each other and gaming would become subjectively boring -9th age as example)

apart from balancing there is more to this game like „flow“ when playing, narrative and ofc the miniatures.

[Skreech Verminking]

39 minutes ago, ledha said:

It feel like a missed occasion.

Olds units that needed a update were either left untouched (prosecutors, liberators), nerfed (paladins as a whole, ), or replaced by new and WAY better units, resulting in a hilariously bad internal balance.

All the new named characters are from Hammers of Sigmars, forcing you to take it if you want to play them.

Same for the command traits and items. Stormcast were very reliant on Staunch Defenders or few very good items. Not only they didn't changed any of the command trait and items, they IMPROVED staunch defenders to make it cumulative with cover save.

While the new mechanics are cool (within => wholly within, 6+ becoming 6 unmodified, rule of 1 on prayers), taking those nerfs feels hard when others faction, like Khorne, Daughter of Khaine, Legion of Nagash or Fyreslayers are still untouched by it, and can buff the world with ton of "whithin" abilities or stacking of prayers.

ALL the old battalion were promptly killed, with the sole exception of the Skyborne Slayers. They are not even "very average but i can take it because it look cool", they are all BAD, expensive and don't make any sense (hey, let's pay 160 pts and take 3 units of Vanguard Hunters so the Vanguard Palladors roll 9 dices instead of 6 when using aetheric winds ! ) . Only 2, Skyborne Slayers and Cleansing Phalanx are good, and the Soulstrike Brotherhood at least is cool, gimmicky and original. Everything else suxx.

The Stormhost feel like a missed occasion, being very inequal (Hammers and Anvils >>> the rest)

The new battletome is not bad, but they COULD have rework some olds units, they COULD have rebalance our items/command traits, they COULD have add new characters for everyone (why do we have Aventis and Astreia when Grymn, Gardus or Syrocco are still waiting for a mini ???), they COULD have not killed all our bataillion (they even deleted the aetherstrike force ! ) and they COULD have not put new units that are hilariously betters than the old one.

There is still very good things in the battletome : the new allegiance traits are awesome and the vanguard units are good now, but they could have done so much

Isn’t this a problem all 21+-faction from the old world have?

?

[ledha]

On 9/17/2018 at 10:36 AM, Skreech Verminking said:

Isn’t this a problem all 21+-faction from the old world have?

?

Are you just on this thread to tease stormcast players and do the old " stop being sad, people starve in africa " act  ?

The stormcast battletome was the occasion to resolve lot of issues of the army (who did well in tournament thanks to the Vanguard Wing and nothing else ) and it did nothing, Worse, it even aggravated those problems.

If a new unified (or even soloclan) skaven battletome was out and launched new minis that make absolutely irrelevant all of your clanrats, plaguemonks, stormverin, jezzails or stormfiend would you be happy ? I don't think so, even if those minis were very strong, beautiful and cheaper than the first. And i don't think you would appreciate a elf/free people/soulblight player telling you to suck it up because "other factions have problems too"
 

[Nos]

21 minutes ago, ledha said:

Are you just on this thread to tease stormcast players and do the old " stop being sad, people starve in africa " act  ?

The stormcast battletome was the occasion to resolve lot of issues of the army (who did well in tournament thanks to the Vanguard Wing and nothing else ) and it did nothing, Worse, it even aggravated those problems.

If a new unified (or even soloclan) skaven battletome was out and launched new minis that make absolutely irrelevant all of your clanrats, plaguemonks, stormverin, jezzails or stormfiend would make you happy ? I don't think so, even if those minis were very strong, beautiful and cheaper than the first. And i don't think you would appreciate a elf/free people/soulblight player telling you to suck it up because "other factions have problems too"
 

As a Stormcast player I have no problem what so ever with being told that multiple armies have the same issues or worse. Not least because it highlights the fact that GW obviously aren't interested in faction balance for competitive play as a priority. The fact that's there's basically only 4/5 armies out of dozens that can win anything at the highest level just underlines to me that this is not a system to play if you're concerned with balance. 

Im not going to invest in something that's only going to frustrate  expectations which are not supported by reality. SC Battletome was a flagship release and it was dense with narrative, hobby stuff and fluffy rules. That's not a mistake. It's competitive failings are hobby strengths.

I think most other factions would be delighted by the volume of releases SC get because most people want more stuff to play with and paint, that's the bottom line.  They wouldnt see multiple infantry models as an affront just because one was now better points value than the other.

And as I said before I'm not convinced SC are as one dimensional as people say anywat, it's just going to take time for their  new form to take competitive shape. One of the problems with a hyper competitive approach is that often all but the best players simply go off theory crafting and what's on paper because they're too scared to just try stuff and lose to actually test it.

[ledha]

22 minutes ago, Nos said:

As a Stormcast player I have no problem what so ever with being told that multiple armies have the same issues or worse. Not least because it highlights the fact that GW obviously aren't interested in faction balance for competitive play as a priority. The fact that's there's basically only 4/5 armies out of dozens that can win anything at the highest level just underlines to me that this is not a system to play if you're concerned with balance. 

Im not going to invest in something that's only going to frustrate  expectations which are not supported by reality. SC Battletome was a flagship release and it was dense with narrative, hobby stuff and fluffy rules. That's not a mistake. It's competitive failings are hobby strengths.

I think most other factions would be delighted by the volume of releases SC get because most people want more stuff to play with and paint, that's the bottom line.  They wouldnt see multiple infantry models as an affront just because one was now better points value than the other.

And as I said before I'm not convinced SC are as one dimensional as people say anywat, it's just going to take time for their  new form to take competitive shape. One of the problems with a hyper competitive approach is that often all but the best players simply go off theory crafting and what's on paper because they're too scared to just try stuff and lose to actually test it.

It's not only a hardcore competitive point of view (still, this thread is about stormcast IN TOURNAMENT right ? ). There is several casual stormcast players in my area, who waited a lot from this battletome, hopping they could actually field their retributors or prosecutors without feeling they were shooting themselves in the foot. I don't need to say they were severaly disappointed.

As a player of the Skyborne Slayers AND with a army of full vanguard units, i'm actually a big winner of the battletome, but i still see its shortcomings. As i said, the battletome isn't bad, but it failed to do what every stormcast players expected from it. We didn't asked for new and overpowered units and the annihilation of our warscroll bataillion, just a rebalance to make weak and symbolic stormcast units good enough  to be fielded. They made a good job to nerf too powerful units like the Heraldor or the Relictor, and it didn't made anyone complain.

[Nos]

23 minutes ago, ledha said:

It's not only a hardcore competitive point of view (still, this thread is about stormcast IN TOURNAMENT right ? ). There is several casual stormcast players in my area, who waited a lot from this battletome, hopping they could actually field their retributors or prosecutors without feeling they were shooting themselves in the foot. I don't need to say they were severaly disappointed.

As a player of the Skyborne Slayers AND with a army of full vanguard units, i'm actually a big winner of the battletome, but i still see its shortcomings. As i said, the battletome isn't bad, but it failed to do what every stormcast players expected from it. We didn't asked for new and overpowered units and the annihilation of our warscroll bataillion, just a rebalance to make weak and symbolic stormcast units good enough  to be fielded. They made a good job to nerf too powerful units like the Heraldor or the Relictor, and it didn't made anyone complain.

If they're interested in playing at a competitive level in AOS then they shouldn't be attached to models or even a specific faction though. It's well established at this point that at competitive level games tend to be won before they're even played and that there is a clear hierarchy with a handful of massively dominant factions at the top, largely by virtue of the fact that they circumvent the rules. EG Seraphon with teleporting, it dosent matter how well you play the movement game if your opponent can just magic out of there.

Competitive is not the place to play your models that you like. It's the place to craft a minority of head spinning synergies and over powered factions with a very specific set of models that facilitate that. Assuming you want to win, that is. But then, why else play that system?

But if you want to just play a game of Matched Play with people who aren't intent on beating you into the ground, there's no reason you can't use Paladins and Liberators and win with them. Not all of the time of course, but they're not literally impossible to win with. Sequitors and Evocators will probably see you win more often, but again, if winning is your thing then a) there's a clear culture to that in AOS which is very different to playing with things that look or feel cool and is basically completely antithetical  and b) there's loads of other wargames which are far more balanced and with far better and fairer rules to facilitate a more open contest.

I think fundamentally the issue is with the creation of "Matched Play" as this seperate concept as that term carries with it an association of legalistic rigour and fairness that simply dosent exist in AOS but has pushed people to treating it as though it's a hardcore modern competitive experience . They should have just kept it at as a basic game uses points values and force organisation as per Old Warhammer with the caveat that you can make up whatever rules or scenarios you like without requiring equal points on either side.

It feels like as soon as people start to plan their army at a set points value in AOS they're more invested in "value" and what's best in the meta rather than what's cool or interesting to them, which in turn leads to basically the same lists fighting the same games the world over which is just such a waste of the unrivalled variety the game provides.

 

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

Are you just on this thread to tease stormcast players and do the old " stop being sad, people starve in africa " act  ?

The stormcast battletome was the occasion to resolve lot of issues of the army (who did well in tournament thanks to the Vanguard Wing and nothing else ) and it did nothing, Worse, it even aggravated those problems.

If a new unified (or even soloclan) skaven battletome was out and launched new minis that make absolutely irrelevant all of your clanrats, plaguemonks, stormverin, jezzails or stormfiend would make you happy ? I don't think so, even if those minis were very strong, beautiful and cheaper than the first. And i don't think you would appreciate a elf/free people/soulblight player telling you to suck it up because "other factions have problems too"
 

Nop, I’m just trying to cheer you all up, trying to tell you that your beautiful army battletome is great. 

And  that it has some great allegiances with which all units in your book can benefit from.

like the new free, put your units to heaven rule, where you don’t have to role anymore and get a -1to hit in combat and shooting from any attack that targets the unit.

Yes I do get the frustration that some units got no updates or pointdecrease,

but that doesn’t mean that they are bad at all.

i still believe that the Sc with hammer and the shields for 100points are still great especially if you take them in a unit of 30.

 They also cost around a 100p less than the new ones with the laces, if you take them in the max. Unit sizes, which means that it is possible to take another  hero or unit of liberators.

judicators are still one of the best shooting units which isn’t not a artillerie piece.

their bows may have lost some of their purpose since you can not as easily as before snipe hero’s (but the look out sir was something desperately needed for many armys)

hey but still, those guys are great against elite units like Blood warriors etc. etc..

(anyways has anybody tried a list with only liberators and a hero out? (Wondering how 100-150liberators and a 100p hero or less worked out?)

and yes I would be happy if the allegiance ability allowed me to use clanrats, and made them in somewhat more useable .

 The Gw would just remove them

i Would probably be very sad.

 

 

ps:clanrats are already worse than plague monks.

same problem with your new units with maces.

They are much better then clanrats, almost cost the same like them and can sometimes even be better in putting out damage than any unit of stormvermin.

but still those 40p differentsbetween the clanrats and monks just means that I can take up to 80more units of clan or giant rats than monk in a 2000p list.

this is probably one of the reasons I like clanrats more. It gives me a possibility of taking another expensive hero unit etc. Also they are a unit for which I never really cared about.

loosing 40Clanrats for me just means that they have done their purpose as meatshields.

But should skaven be changed fully and all units which I use would get removed in a battletome, than yes I would be very sad and probably angry.

As for new units which might be better at dying (hoping for slaves to come back) I would love that.

but I believe that you might be right, but since my units already aren’t as competitive as most of yours, this is something I cannot really say.

and again I’m very sorry if the last thing i wrote upset you?.

 

[Skreech Verminking]

Ps: (I’m not really a Sc player but has anybody tried a 2000p list with with only Liberators and the some hero (doesn’t matter which one)?

would love to her how it went, at least objective wise.

[Nos]

10 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Ps: (I’m not really a Sc player but has anybody tried a 2000p list with with only Liberators and the some hero (doesn’t matter which one)?

would love to her how it went, at least objective wise.

I haven't personally but my aim is to use lots of small units( including screens of liberators)  as a combined arms force  with one or two big units of Judicators to try and control things. Again I'm not a competitive player but I doubt I'm going to lose every of even a majority of games in my league or anything. Multiple units are hard to take out whoever you are, you can only focus so many things per turn. I like the idea of an actual stormHOST.

[Bradipo322]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Ps: (I’m not really a Sc player but has anybody tried a 2000p list with with only Liberators and the some hero (doesn’t matter which one)?

would love to her how it went, at least objective wise.

I used some Liberator-heavy lists back in the previous edition at 750 and 1000 points and found them very lackluster. Liberators suffer from two problems:

1. They don't hit hard enought and in combat will deal next to no damage (only the two-handed weapons do something really tangible);
2. They aren't really that much hard to remove, all you need is a way to deal Mortal Wounds to easly kill them, but this is a problem with nearly all stormcasts (a Bloodletter bomb will chew a unit of Liberators for breakfast).

The hero does matter, a Lord-Castellant with Staunch Defender would give liberators a save of 2+, but then? How do you plan to win the game?

[Nos]

10 minutes ago, Bradipo322 said:

I used some Liberator-heavy lists back in the previous edition at 750 and 1000 points and found them very lackluster. Liberators suffer from two problems:

1. They don't hit hard enought and in combat will deal next to no damage (only the two-handed weapons do something really tangible);
2. They aren't really that much hard to remove, all you need is a way to deal Mortal Wounds to easly kill them, but this is a problem with nearly all stormcasts (a Bloodletter bomb will chew a unit of Liberators for breakfast).

The hero does matter, a Lord-Castellant with Staunch Defender would give liberators a save of 2+, but then? How do you plan to win the game?

If you're playing against someone who has an army designed to circumvent all your advantages then you're not going to win the game no.

But if you're in a league against a variety of different factions that weren't just composed of the top tier armies who play a different game to everyone  else, a bunch of Liberators would do fine across the spectrum, especially in take and hold scenarios.  

It would be dumb to take an army like that to a competitive event sure but it would be dumb to take 95% of armies to a competitive event currently 

[Yokai]

Man, the way the direction in which this discussion has tangented reminds me a whole lot of the "PvE vs PvP" discussions in my MMORPG days.

It basically boiled down to this: PvE fans wanted fluff and variety and did not care a whole lot about competitiveness, whereas PvP fans wanted everything to be on an equal footing competetively. Needless to say, games which tried to please both crowds did not fare very well. So, the best games were the ones which focused its design and ruleset mainly on one of those categories, and did it well.

I think the same lesson applies here: look at what kind of game AoS is designed to be, and adjust your expectations accordingly.

[Nos]

30 minutes ago, Yokai said:

Man, the way the direction in which this discussion has tangented reminds me a whole lot of the "PvE vs PvP" discussions in my MMORPG days.

It basically boiled down to this: PvE fans wanted fluff and variety and did not care a whole lot about competitiveness, whereas PvP fans wanted everything to be on an equal footing competetively. Needless to say, games which tried to please both crowds did not fare very well. So, the best games were the ones which focused its design and ruleset mainly on one of those categories, and did it well.

I think the same lesson applies here: look at what kind of game AoS is designed to be, and adjust your expectations accordingly.

Likewise, I used to play a lot of DOTA to quite a high level. There were always issues regarding balance there but that was a game designed specifically with competition in mind,  professionals can win literally millions at the highest level and it is designed as a competitive spectator sport so it was vital to the game that as it evolved it also had a competitive equilibrium . The work and model required to make a majority of options competitive at the highest level, which it wasn't far off from achieving, is fundamentally different. Moreover a great player could beat a good player with pretty much anyone because it was profoundly invested in rewarding mastery of the games mechanics and understanding its rules.

That just isn't the case in AOS. As has been said on here many players look to win the game before it's even played. That is a very specific type of game which has clearly come out by virtue of the sloppiness of rules and balance, not as the epitome of it.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Nos said:

If you're playing against someone who has an army designed to circumvent all your advantages then you're not going to win the game no.

But if you're in a league against a variety of different factions that weren't just composed of the top tier armies who play a different game to everyone  else, a bunch of Liberators would do fine across the spectrum, especially in take and hold scenarios.  

It would be dumb to take an army like that to a competitive event sure but it would be dumb to take 95% of armies to a competitive event currently 

Yeah I know what you mean.

played a few games against our local top tournament players with 320clan/giant rats.

i won all of the game objective wise.

But wasn’t really able in killing anything great with them.

and the problem with such a list is just for me, that it contains too many models to even finish a game in whole.

if your lucky you might finish the 4th round.

and that’s usually it

[ledha]

25 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah I know what you mean.

played a few games against our local top tournament players with 320clan/giant rats.

i won all of the game objective wise.

But wasn’t really able in killing anything great with them.

and the problem with such a list is just for me, that it contains too many models to even finish a game in whole.

if your lucky you might finish the 4th round.

and that’s usually it

except what work with clanrats don't work with liberators

the very big size of liberators as well as their bad move and lack of retreat+charge mean they are not even good at caping objective and can be easily locked down. They are 3 time less numerous than your rats, and you usually can't pack more than 10-15 around an objective. Plus big base + range 1" mean only a very few number of them will actually attack, and their damage become worse than your clanrats

[Skreech Verminking]

Well I tried my best in cheering you up.

and it seemed like not to have worked too greatly.

So good luck to you all.

maybe you’ll have your very powerful battletome next Year, for which I assume most of you were hoping for.

It also looks like that my last subjects in this chat have made some people very mad?.

So I’ll just stop with my notes......

 

 

 

 

 

 

.... about SC beeing a good army.

never said I’ll stop recruiting some new skaven players (at least trying)????

 

[Azamar]

I wonder how much of this is because stormcast- as the poster child of AOS- are the obvious  army to try and balance others around? Maybe the exercise isn’t to buff up stormcast to the level of LON and the like, but to tweak those armies (or in many cases, just the broken elements of those armies) back down to their level. And ideally buffing all the armies below them up to their level. 

I dont know know for sure this is the case, but if it is it might explain why stormcast are never top of the tourney lists.  Just a thought anyway. 

Internal balance is another issue of course. It does feel silly that the wizard chamber are more accomplished fighters than the warrior chamber.

[AwareTheLegend]

1 hour ago, Azamar said:

I wonder how much of this is because stormcast- as the poster child of AOS- are the obvious  army to try and balance others around? Maybe the exercise isn’t to buff up stormcast to the level of LON and the like, but to tweak those armies (or in many cases, just the broken elements of those armies) back down to their level. And ideally buffing all the armies below them up to their level. 

I dont know know for sure this is the case, but if it is it might explain why stormcast are never top of the tourney lists.  Just a thought anyway. 

Internal balance is another issue of course. It does feel silly that the wizard chamber are more accomplished fighters than the warrior chamber.

If Paladins were cheaper than Evocators the balance wouldn't feel quite as crazy but 200 pts for the Evocators vs 200+ for Deci/Prot/Retrib just doesn't feel right in any way. 

[Future]

I'm pretty new to the game and not really a stormcast player yet. So I am not going to pick a side but have a question that is more of a thought experiment. It seems everyone is concerned with power creep of new armies and new units in general and not just with SC. Wouldn't just as many people be complaining if SC was much stronger today because of the new book, just different people?

 

I come from Armada which is a terrific game and pry the most balanced table top game out there at the moment. There isn't a single ship that isn't competitive and can't have a  strong list built around it. Its very hard to find a community that plays the game, and with only two factions leaves a lot to be desired. I got into AOS because there is more fluff, theme, scenery etc. not because its a better game. Its a good enough game that does a lot of other things great. As others have stated I don't think anyone wants a truly balanced game. Also in a truly balanced game I think SC would have been nerfed much harder to make other factions more competitive.

[Bradipo322]

2 minutes ago, Future said:

I'm pretty new to the game and not really a stormcast player yet. So I am not going to pick a side but have a question that is more of a thought experiment. It seems everyone is concerned with power creep of new armies and new units in general and not just with SC. Wouldn't just as many people be complaining if SC was much stronger today because of the new book, just different people?

 

I come from Armada which is a terrific game and pry the most balanced table top game out there at the moment. There isn't a single ship that isn't competitive and can't have a  strong list built around it. Its very hard to find a community that plays the game, and with only two factions leaves a lot to be desired. I got into AOS because there is more fluff, theme, scenery etc. not because its a better game. Its a good enough game that does a lot of other things great. As others have stated I don't think anyone wants a truly balanced game. Also in a truly balanced game I think SC would have been nerfed much harder to make other factions more competitive.

Would people complain if Stormcasts where stronger? Yes.

Would people complain if any faction is overpowering the others? Yes.

One of my friends keeps complaining to me that stormcasts have too many models. What he doesn't get is that the majority of units are worthless to play (due to a really bad internal balance).

If you look at the old rules for Stormcast you'll see that with the new battletome a lot of old units are now unplayable (just look at the Lord-Celestant warscroll, he was my favorite model and now it's just too weak to be played). So stormcast have been nerfed (even in the past when a particular list won some high-level tournaments we got a battallion nerfed, two times!).

Is the game remotely balanced? Not even close, and that's it. While we can't do anything about it why can't we complain about it?

[Mark Williams]

18 minutes ago, Future said:

I'm pretty new to the game and not really a stormcast player yet. So I am not going to pick a side but have a question that is more of a thought experiment. It seems everyone is concerned with power creep of new armies and new units in general and not just with SC. Wouldn't just as many people be complaining if SC was much stronger today because of the new book, just different people?

This is not aimed at you specifically, but I think one of the main problems in this thread is that too many people read it and think SC players are complaining about not being stronger, and wanting them to be the best there is. To me, that's not was this thread is about. To me, this thread is just simply about evaluating where they stand, and why.

The question about what should be done, and how that might affect the rest of the game, is outside the scope of the topic and imo is just hypothetical "wish talking". In this fantasy, imaginary world where I actually have any real voice on what should be done to balance the game, I wouldn't just address SCE and leave every other army in the lurch. If I actually had any power to do anything about it, I'd change every single army... but that's a competely different discussion, and personally I have never cared for armchair game designing. My voice won't reach GW, and even if it did, they wouldn't listen to me, so trying to say "they should do this or they should do that" is like peeing in the wind to me.

My only interest in this thread is just simply quantifying in clear language where SCE stands, how they compare to the previous edition and book, and why that is. Saying that I feel that some units are weaker than others or that I feel the book isn't balanced well, doesn't mean I don't think every single other book also needs re-balancing too.

[ledha]

8 minutes ago, Bradipo322 said:

 

If you look at the old rules for Stormcast you'll see that with the new battletome a lot of old units are now unplayable (just look at the Lord-Celestant warscroll, he was my favorite model and now it's just too weak to be played). So stormcast have been nerfed (even in the past when a particular list won some high-level tournaments we got a battallion nerfed, two times!).

Is the game remotely balanced? Not even close, and that's it. While we can't do anything about it why can't we complain about it?

Ironically, in the context of the Skyborne Slayers or any "drop list", the Celestant is way stronger than before. His new command ability now work in COMBAT PHASE, and not in HERO PHASE, so you can drop, charge, and benefit from the +1 to hit, while we couldn't have this bonus before.

Plus the nerf of hero sniping make him more resilient and his cloak incredibly useful for sniping heroes, since it's an ability and not a missile weapon. So he can freely use it after running, after retreat, and against units he isn't in contact with.