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Why SCE is doing even worse in tournaments compared with previous version?


Aeonotakist

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19 hours ago, ianob said:

Well, if you think that, fair enough. However, maybe you should consider that 6 games is not enough to understand and play your army well? Have you considered that even when played perfectly you can have bad matchups or lose some games? You didn't play the Seraphon and Nighthaunt again, multiple times, and see how you got on in other games.

I guess what I'm getting that is that you're writing your faction off with barely any games under your belt, you're seemingly basing an assessment of the entire meta off of something you've read somewhere, and all of it looks like inexperience. Play your army more, try different builds, play the same opponents multiple times, and you'll see that SCE are not only in a great place but can happily beat all of the lists that you mentioned, especially as you gain more experience and confidence. Being sad on a forum and looking for people who agree with you wont fix it, gaming more can!

I think it depends. I was the first place back in 2016 in several small tournaments in both Shanghai and northern Germany. At that time I have experience WBH and other enemies without solid support rules. It was clearly a time when SCE was broken (or in LoN place for today).

Actually we do have a very active pro game group in China + Hong Kong + Singapore.  For example, the Seraphon I lost to was the 2nd place in 2016 UK Brotherhood. We discussed that match again and again afterwards and realized SCE Gavieral based list stands almost no chance to win at all.

It might be that in our environment the meta is limited. But we do from time to times have winner of western tournament or directly face top tier players from western side. As a conclusion, it is not just built on 6 matches. They are matches we discussed and looked over together by some player aiming at tournament play. The reason why no more games can be provided is simply I am the only SCE player for now. Other people all go to LoN or DoK at the moment. with only a few exceptions. 

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1 hour ago, ianob said:

Because I've played 10~ games with them myself, and another 10~  or so against them, all in testing against top tier competitive armies (Sylvaneth, Deepkin, Nagash, Nurgle, etc) as well as the other Stormcast players in my local competitive playgroup playing 20+ more in the same circle of competitive armies whilst I've been present and observing games?

Sooo.... winrate?

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3 minutes ago, XReN said:

Sooo.... winrate?

I don't record winrates across my entire extended playgroup, sorry. But they are observably competitive at the highest level, against the best armies played by good players.

Look, if you want a thread to complain and not hear any arguments against, go ahead. If you want to keep thinking your army is terrible, go ahead. I'm trying to help you by telling you the army is good, it has good lists (not all Hammers, by the way), and it can compete. If you don't want to hear it and don't want to consider that it may be that you need practice, or your opponents are better than you, or that you've straight up had an unlucky streak... go ahead. I won't waste any more time trying to convince you otherwise.

Good luck!

 

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4 minutes ago, ianob said:

I don't record winrates across my entire extended playgroup, sorry. But they are observably competitive at the highest level, against the best armies played by good players.

Look, if you want a thread to complain and not hear any arguments against, go ahead. If you want to keep thinking your army is terrible, go ahead. I'm trying to help you by telling you the army is good, it has good lists (not all Hammers, by the way), and it can compete. If you don't want to hear it and don't want to consider that it may be that you need practice, or your opponents are better than you, or that you've straight up had an unlucky streak... go ahead. I won't waste any more time trying to convince you otherwise.

Good luck!

 

Yeah, I'm sorry for this pessimistic behavior, it's kinda contagious around here.
Any advice on how to use older units outside of dropping paladins/dracoths with Gav/building shooting list with Anvils? 
I really like strike chamber units and the fact that they are lacking on competetive scene is what brings me down.

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8 minutes ago, XReN said:

Yeah, I'm sorry for this pessimistic behavior, it's kinda contagious around here.
Any advice on how to use older units outside of dropping paladins/dracoths with Gav/building shooting list with Anvils? 
I really like strike chamber units and the fact that they are lacking on competetive scene is what brings me down.

You're not wrong, the new units are power crept. You've just named all of the lists I've played with/against with in 2.0, so I can't offer any experiential advice about older units that you probably don't already know. That said, I've seen a few (not many admittedly) people running old school "Les Martin Build" lists around the top tables at both majors and multiple minors this season, so I dont think old style lists are dead. I dont think Liberators/Judicators/Prosecutors/Dracoths/etc are dead. And as many new things have gotten amazing in 2.0 (DoK, LoN, Deepkin) SC have equally gotten new tools to mix in to older-style lists if you don't want to go full sacrosanct chamber.

I don't think lists other than the ones you mentioned are dead, not at all. They might not be the best, but equally they might be fine? Stormcast have always had great quality and breadth of options.

So, sorry I'm not the right person to answer this, but I think practice and experimentation could easily get you a competitive list whilst sticking to units you love.

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And if you still think Sc are bad, than throw them away and start playing a different army, like Skaven.

join us yes-yes you know you want to start a skaven army.

believe me I know what you want, and (mixed) skaven can fulfill your wish.

we may not have a battletome, or too many battalions, or are in any of the top 10 spots at most tournaments, and you will probably loose many times,

But who cares, (mixed) Skaven are the best.

You say you’ve got no chance against a horde army with stormcast.

well then start playing (mixed) Skaven,

and you will have the chance of letting every competitive player struggle against your 400model count army (consisting of clanrats and giant rats).

even lone player will struggle to kill-slay all your meatshields yes-yes.

win  for Skreech, kill-slay weakmeats,

take-steel City-burrows,

Glooooooooooooooory to Mors.

 

 

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On 9/5/2018 at 6:53 AM, XReN said:

Yes, I can't. Because LoN can do it RELIABLY and COUNT ON IT, instead of just droping CP into the pit and wait for miracle.
Also, I had a game against Beastclaw Riders and they killed half of my army first turn, including 30 liberators whille losing 2 or 3 models. I'd like to spend CP and bring back a unit RELIABLY if I have to pay for it with weak artefact and weak trait

As someone who played against BCR raiders last night. I lost so much in the 1st turn. I was playing Tempest Lords so I had no chance to bring anything back.

D6 MWs on the charge plus extra move made my life no to fun. He had 4 Stonehorns as well which really negated my extra damage. Also Mournfangs are ideally situated to kill Evocators.

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7 hours ago, AwareTheLegend said:

As someone who played against BCR raiders last night. I lost so much in the 1st turn. I was playing Tempest Lords so I had no chance to bring anything back.

D6 MWs on the charge plus extra move made my life no to fun. He had 4 Stonehorns as well which really negated my extra damage. Also Mournfangs are ideally situated to kill Evocators.

Did you screen your army? If not well yeah kinda sucks but the error is on your side here. 

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10 hours ago, AwareTheLegend said:

As someone who played against BCR raiders last night. I lost so much in the 1st turn. I was playing Tempest Lords so I had no chance to bring anything back.

D6 MWs on the charge plus extra move made my life no to fun. He had 4 Stonehorns as well which really negated my extra damage. Also Mournfangs are ideally situated to kill Evocators.

Well Skaven could do the job?

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Stormcasts have competitive lists, the issue is they made the same problems stormcast USED to have worse.

The first one is clearly exemplified in this thread: People who don't play stormcasts themselves have no idea what they're talking about but because it's the poster boy army still feel like they're familiar enough to chime in even though they say ridiculous nonsense like 'oh people shy away from them cause they're a beginner army.'  Now that people have read unit previews about how Arcanum's on Gryph chargers work or w/e, they're suddenly experts even though they're clearly reading the most of the rules wrong.

The second one is that the army is stupidly lopsided with units that are extremely powerful(sequitors) units that are weak enough to be pointless(Lord Exorcist, Tempestors) and units that just don't make any goddam sense(desolators, castigators). The best stormcast lists can still stand against the competition but so much of the book is useless, or counter synergistic, it makes list building a chore. Stormcast play like 5 or 6 different armies got mushed together. It's almost completely incoherent at this point.

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3 hours ago, schwabbele said:

Did you screen your army? If not well yeah kinda sucks but the error is on your side here. 

Screen with what? Stormcast don't have screens. I suppose he could have taken 3 units of skinks, but that's really outside the scope of stormcast specific problems.

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26 minutes ago, Bellfree said:

Screen with what? Stormcast don't have screens. I suppose he could have taken 3 units of skinks, but that's really outside the scope of stormcast specific problems.

Well  a unit of 10 liberators is also a possibility, if he is more interested in staying with a full and only Sc army

they might not be cheap but they have a good chance of surviving, and even if they die, who cares it was only a 200p unit. As long as this unit can take most of the charge it will be worth it.

and yes I’m definitely not a stormcast player nor do i know to much of them.

But I am an expert on units that can be used as meatshields, and in which way such units can protect your elites and rest of the army.

 

 

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21 hours ago, ianob said:

You're not wrong, the new units are power crept. You've just named all of the lists I've played with/against with in 2.0, so I can't offer any experiential advice about older units that you probably don't already know. That said, I've seen a few (not many admittedly) people running old school "Les Martin Build" lists around the top tables at both majors and multiple minors this season, so I dont think old style lists are dead. I dont think Liberators/Judicators/Prosecutors/Dracoths/etc are dead. And as many new things have gotten amazing in 2.0 (DoK, LoN, Deepkin) SC have equally gotten new tools to mix in to older-style lists if you don't want to go full sacrosanct chamber.

I don't think lists other than the ones you mentioned are dead, not at all. They might not be the best, but equally they might be fine? Stormcast have always had great quality and breadth of options.

So, sorry I'm not the right person to answer this, but I think practice and experimentation could easily get you a competitive list whilst sticking to units you love.

This I mostly disagree with. No, the older lists aren't totally dead and there are some niches the older units can fill even with the massively more powerful units like Evocators and Sequitors kicking around, but they ARE in a really dire spot for the most part. Most CASUAL games you can throw a dart at the stormcast book and probably be okay, but for competitive tournament armies your options are just a new handful of OP stormcast stuff the same as Invincible stardrake or Vanguard wing before them.

Before I go on, yes certain builds of Stormcasts can absolutely win major events, the issues with the book are not with it's top end power-level but with the fact that the army was clearly made by stapling between 4 and 6 other codexes together and calling it good.

SCE haven't really gotten new 'tools' so much as they've gotten an entirely new army. Except for the Castellant and Judicators, most things didn't make the transition over into the new edition. There's no reason to take paladins over evocators, there's very few reasons to take liberators(though there are some cases where you would) over sequitors, prosecutors have been on the weak side for a long time. Combine that with 3 out 4 dracoth units receiving fairly significant nerfs, the buffs on the vanguard units not being nearly significant enough to bring them to relevance and the overall increased powerlevel of the edition and you end up with an army that is mostly reliant on the new hotness to compete. The big problem though, is that there's not a whole lot of crossover or synergy between units . Evocators don't really do anything for Dracoths that don't really help Palladors that don't really help Sequitors that don't really benefit Longstrikes, that don't offer much to castigators that don't really etc, etc ,etc. Stormcast units from different chambers step on each others toes more often than not.

You probably can't build a competitive list with only the older units anymore, even the Les Martin TM build is likely going to start falling off as people get better at playing the new LoN, Maggotkin, and even Sacrosanct armies. Adding in a 20 man of Sequitors, or Gavriel, or w/e will give these lists a shot in the arm for sure, but it's still not likely to be as good as just playing a primarily sacrosanct list would have been.

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9 minutes ago, Bellfree said:

This I mostly disagree with. No, the older lists aren't totally dead and there are some niches the older units can fill even with the massively more powerful units like Evocators and Sequitors kicking around, but they ARE in a really dire spot for the most part. Most CASUAL games you can throw a dart at the stormcast book and probably be okay, but for competitive tournament armies your options are just a new handful of OP stormcast stuff the same as Invincible stardrake or Vanguard wing before them.

Before I go on, yes certain builds of Stormcasts can absolutely win major events, the issues with the book are not with it's top end power-level but with the fact that the army was clearly made by stapling between 4 and 6 other codexes together and calling it good.

SCE haven't really gotten new 'tools' so much as they've gotten an entirely new army. Except for the Castellant and Judicators, most things didn't make the transition over into the new edition. There's no reason to take paladins over evocators, there's very few reasons to take liberators(though there are some cases where you would) over sequitors, prosecutors have been on the weak side for a long time. Combine that with 3 out 4 dracoth units receiving fairly significant nerfs, the buffs on the vanguard units not being nearly significant enough to bring them to relevance and the overall increased powerlevel of the edition and you end up with an army that is mostly reliant on the new hotness to compete. The big problem though, is that there's not a whole lot of crossover or synergy between units . Evocators don't really do anything for Dracoths that don't really help Palladors that don't really help Sequitors that don't really benefit Longstrikes, that don't offer much to castigators that don't really etc, etc ,etc. Stormcast units from different chambers step on each others toes more often than not.

You probably can't build a competitive list with only the older units anymore, even the Les Martin TM build is likely going to start falling off as people get better at playing the new LoN, Maggotkin, and even Sacrosanct armies. Adding in a 20 man of Sequitors, or Gavriel, or w/e will give these lists a shot in the arm for sure, but it's still not likely to be as good as just playing a primarily sacrosanct list would have been.

So what your saying is that the reserves, with which you can come to the battlefield any time you want, without needing to roll a 3 or more, that will give your units a -1to hit against them, is bad?

isnt this something every stormcast players wanted?

and now with the new book you even got Wizards and some new units as well as the ballista, which is definitely taken from the high elves, and is probably the most effective Artillerie peace in the whole game, for only 100 points.

Are you telling me that everything you have gotten, doesn’t make up for the one battalion which has letten you to deepstrike 1inch from the enemy isn’t worth it?

you know I give up, trying to tell you guys that you have a wonderfully choice of immense numbers of units and hero’s.

have a great battletome with an amazing allegiance ability,

and are a very competitive army, in such a way, that you always have the chance of beeing one of the top 10armys in almost every tournament.

Hey I do get the it, that you are rather unhappy with the fact, that one of your best battalions was taken out.

But at least you have some,

my verminus army  losed they’re only battalion with the ghb 2017.

and they still have non since now.

to see Stormcast as rather bad won’t do you any good.

than again there is always another way of playing an aos game?.

if you think their bad than stop playing them, throw them away, and start a skaven army.

believe me skaven are the best.

especially then, when you mix them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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No one is saying they are dog ****** and not worth playing. We are simply saying that they aren’t doing as well as people hoped, given the fact that a brand new tome was given to them recently. The tome was underwhelming compared to what some armies got in recent time frame, and it seems that on the whole they may have even slid backwards from where they were before. It’s just odd for an army that is arguably the poster child for the game.

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1 hour ago, Bellfree said:

Screen with what? Stormcast don't have screens. I suppose he could have taken 3 units of skinks, but that's really outside the scope of stormcast specific problems.

Yeah it is not a problem at all because we have access to cheap screens. A lot of different ones actually.

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The problem as what some people here have already said is that the internal balance is abyssmal (Idoneth have the same problem too mind you).

They didn't fix most of the old units that needed fixing and instead brought some new ones who are so much better than the old choices, that make them almost obsolete in competitive enviroment.

Some examples:

Dracothian Guard needed desperately a points reduction and they only got nerfs. And before someone jumps in and says they're great please so some mathhammer and you'll see that their damage is very low compared to other units and with all these mortal wounds many armies can deal their better save means little as they are too few wounds. 

Liberators should be either cheaper or with better stats. I'm ok with the removal of Vanguard Wing but all those Liberators all of us have should be at least better or cheaper.

Paladins are a joke compared with not only Evocators but with almost any similar unit of other armies due to their high cost.

Imagine that Fullminators deal approximately 18 damage on a 4+ save unit on the turn they charge (their breaths included) and the Evocators for 80pts cheaper deal 24 wounds on EVERY turn whether they charged or it is your turn or not.

Protectors deal approximately 7/8 damage and the Sequitor deal 7 damage again for 80pts less.

This is terrible internal balance. And as you see we are not talking that x units does 1-2 more damage that y unit etc... The difference in power is so great that in a book with so many choices in units and characters you end up with only a handful. I know that we can choose to play with whatever unit we want and try to make it work but in a balanced battletome making these choices should take some thinking and not debating with yourself whether you will use the unit you want but shoot your foot so badly...

And this is not a rant. I'm just pointing out what imo the problem with the new book is.

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8 hours ago, Siegfried VII said:

The problem as what some people here have already said is that the internal balance is abyssmal (Idoneth have the same problem too mind you).

They didn't fix most of the old units that needed fixing and instead brought some new ones who are so much better than the old choices, that make them almost obsolete in competitive enviroment.

Some examples:

Dracothian Guard needed desperately a points reduction and they only got nerfs. And before someone jumps in and says they're great please so some mathhammer and you'll see that their damage is very low compared to other units and with all these mortal wounds many armies can deal their better save means little as they are too few wounds. 

Liberators should be either cheaper or with better stats. I'm ok with the removal of Vanguard Wing but all those Liberators all of us have should be at least better or cheaper.

Paladins are a joke compared with not only Evocators but with almost any similar unit of other armies due to their high cost.

Imagine that Fullminators deal approximately 18 damage on a 4+ save unit on the turn they charge (their breaths included) and the Evocators for 80pts cheaper deal 24 wounds on EVERY turn whether they charged or it is your turn or not.

Protectors deal approximately 7/8 damage and the Sequitor deal 7 damage again for 80pts less.

This is terrible internal balance. And as you see we are not talking that x units does 1-2 more damage that y unit etc... The difference in power is so great that in a book with so many choices in units and characters you end up with only a handful. I know that we can choose to play with whatever unit we want and try to make it work but in a balanced battletome making these choices should take some thinking and not debating with yourself whether you will use the unit you want but shoot your foot so badly...

And this is not a rant. I'm just pointing out what imo the problem with the new book is.

Ok that makes sense, 

many units in aos would need a desperate update (like a pointdecrease.

Sc are not the only army.

for example, clan verminus.

if a skaven player had a choice between plague monks and clanrats, they would rather take the plague monks, since those guys cost 10-40points more then clanrats but can deal out even more damage than a block of 40Stormvermins.

the next problem with with stormvermin and clanrats is, that those guys will die very fast, when shoot at.

when aos 2.0came our, I was really hoping for those pointdecreases.

but instead of that the only thing Gw did is leave everything be.

this problem is something many, faction have and probably will have until aos 3.0 or even longer.

but hey those units can still be in some way good.

try some different lists.

play a game with a different kind of Sc army, with which you can surprise your friends/enemy’s (frenemys).

it is something which works best.

For example you could play a game of aos with only liberators and hero.

(like 105 liberators and some hero that costs only a 100point)

nobody would suspect something like this, and it would definitely be very hard to kill all of them of.

so try some things out.

play something nobody expects,

get those players by suprise,

and victory will be yours yes-yes 

 

 

 

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I think the liberator spam list will do much more poorly than people imagine. This was the list I was originally building when I first started playing sce. The main issue I had was going up against any sort of elite list with rend and good damage output. It was not uncommon for a powerful elite unit to chew though 10+ liberators per turn. You start failing bravery tests and it all just goes downhill. I think if you broke it all up into 5-man squads it would make it more difficult to plow through them, but you still have the issue of low damage output, which is so bad that you basically just become a speed bump for literally everything. This is unfortunately just simply not how sce wins games. Trying to tarpit enemies with a slow moving, low damage, blob doesn’t seem to work, as the missions all involve shock attacks designed to knock enemies off an objective in a single turn. Libs can’t do that sadly.

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11 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Ok that makes sense, 

many units in aos would need a desperate update (like a pointdecrease.

Sc are not the only army.

for example, clan verminus.

if a skaven player had a choice between plague monks and clanrats, they would rather take the plague monks, since those guys cost 10-40points more then clanrats but can deal out even more damage than a block of 40Stormvermins.

the next problem with with stormvermin and clanrats is, that those guys will die very fast, when shoot at.

when aos 2.0came our, I was really hoping for those pointdecreases.

but instead of that the only thing Gw did is leave everything be.

this problem is something many, faction have and probably will have until aos 3.0 or even longer.

but hey those units can still be in some way good.

try some different lists.

play a game with a different kind of Sc army, with which you can surprise your friends/enemy’s (frenemys).

it is something which works best.

For example you could play a game of aos with only liberators and hero.

(like 105 liberators and some hero that costs only a 100point)

nobody would suspect something like this, and it would definitely be very hard to kill all of them of.

so try some things out.

play something nobody expects,

get those players by suprise,

and victory will be yours yes-yes 

 

 

 

I hear you man about Skaven and I agree. But imagine that they got you a brand new Battletome : Skaven and didn't fix even then the problems and instead they put some new models so much better than the old ones that make them almost obsolete.

 

As for me I'll certainly try some things in friendly games but it will be difficult to do something nice in a tournament. We'll see! :-)

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1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

I hear you man about Skaven and I agree. But imagine that they got you a brand new Battletome : Skaven and didn't fix even then the problems and instead they put some new models so much better than the old ones that make them almost obsolete.

 

As for me I'll certainly try some things in friendly games but it will be difficult to do something nice in a tournament. We'll see! ?

Yeah your right, but I would have to ask you if you would have been happier, if SC didn’t get any new minis with the battletome

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13 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah your right, but I would have to ask you if you would have been happier, if SC didn’t get any new minis with the battletome

I always like new miniatures and I collect every stormcast model but there are people who will want to use their old models/won't have money for the new ones/won't like the new ones etc who should not feel that they get the short end of the stick.

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2 hours ago, Siegfried VII said:

I always like new miniatures and I collect every stormcast model but there are people who will want to use their old models/won't have money for the new ones/won't like the new ones etc who should not feel that they get the short end of the stick.

Well it’s not really a short end of the stick.

at least I didn’t notice any downgrades or too many point increases for the older models, and with the new battletome (mostly meaning allegiance ability)  they seem to be a very good army thought now, even for those players who don’t like to use any of the new minis.

this is something that can be a problem, if 70-90procent of the tournament players, are using a SC army.

But I never really heard of a tournament in which almost all players were playing the same faction.

 

 

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On 9/7/2018 at 10:03 PM, schwabbele said:

Did you screen your army? If not well yeah kinda sucks but the error is on your side here. 

Lol. Screen with what?

Yes it is totally a problem. My local group is really competitive so I'm looking at adding some skinks for screening purposes. It isn't something that I want to do but something I'll have to do.

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