Why SCE is doing even worse in tournaments compared with previous version?

[azmarus]

21 hours ago, AaronWIlson said:

I watched the live coverage from The Honest Wargamer is how I know. Not sure if lists were posted anywhere etc. 

bobo  have some  home rules. nerf summon and chaos. 

[ledha]

4 hours ago, PJetski said:

Why does everyone pretend that Stardrakes and Aetherstrike didnt exist in 1.0...? Vanguard Wing was not that good once your opponents learned to play around it, but there wasn't much you could do against a well-played Aetherstrike.

Stardrake list was a sadomasochist bet with all the changehost running around honestly. It always did "good enough" to have a solid place in tournament, but winning one ? heh.

As for the Aetherstrike Force, it was very very good in the earliers days on the V1, but all the battletome coming after (nurgle, death, DOK, Idoneth) with fast, resilient, hard hitting units with anti shooting abilities or extremely good staying power/objective game made the aetherstrike less and less playable, to the point of absolutely disappearing from tournaments.

And it was possible to learn to play around Aetherstrike and Stardrake list. But Vanguard Wing ? f*** that. Like Changehost, it didn't played the same game as you and learning to pay around it didn't change anything as long as you didn't had a VERY solid list specifically aimed to counter it.

[Mark Williams]

What was the vanguard wing list exactly? I can imagine what the other lists are but I don’t see what vanguard would be.

[ledha]

50 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

What was the vanguard wing list exactly? I can imagine what the other lists are but I don’t see what vanguard would be.

30 liberators who can teleport in the movement phase instead of moving. The only restriction is being in range (6" if i remember) of one of their 3 units of prosecutors, which mean they could teleport directly in melee. Being whithin those prosecutors gave them another ability : any 6+ to hit (hello lord celestant !) make two wound rolls.

This mean you had a huge block of liberators, absolutely impossible to cover against (except if you REALLY swarm your board with ton of minis or clamp your whole army in a very tiny area to prevent any big base), that never charge so always count as being in range of staunch defender + castellant light (so permanent 2+ rr 1 save, some people taking even 2 castellants), and could place all its grandhammer on a lone character or units, so with a perfect damage distribution and that could hit really, REALLY hard. especially against characters and big monster (hit on 2+, every hit roll of 4+ make two wounds, with the 13 grandhammers attacks always focused on the right unit, it meant you regularly had to make something like 15 saves rend-1 dmg 2).

They could remove loss however they wanted, and in the next turn, reteleport and deploy themselve to stay in range of their buffs and all. And the list let enough point to put lot of things (vanguard raptor, protectors, judicators, relictor for bless weapon that could double the damage...).

Some list had 3 medusae (before the new DOK battletome) that were basically a discount gaunt summoner against hordes, hardcountering the only thing that could be a treath to those guys (while the prosecutors and judicators were good at sniping lone heroes that were unreachable).

The only way to win against it was to snipe away the prosecutors or the characters, but it's easier said that done. You COULD make a list specificlly made to hard counter the Vanguard Wing, but it was still a hard battle and it meant your list wasn't tailored to face the other nightmares (changehost, clown car, 110 vulkite berserker...) you could face.

[AdamR]

Mine was

Lord Celestant - general, staunch, mirror shield

Lord Celestant on Dracoth - Obsidian Blade, tempestos hammer

Lord Relictor - Bless weapons

Lord Relictor - Bless Weapons

Lord Castellant

Knight Venator

 

30 Liberators - hammers & shields, 6 grandhammers

5 liberators - warblade & shield, 1 grandblade

5 Judicators - bows

3 Prosecutors - 1 trident, 2 javelins

3 prosecutors - 1 trident, 2 javelins

3 prosecutors - 1 grandblade, hammers & shields

Vanguard Wing Battalion

 

The liberators could teleport to within 6" of the prosecutors so for most of the edition port directly into combat without charging.

Their damage output came from the stacking of bless weapons for extra hits and the battalion ability of extra damage on 6's when near prosecutors.

Add the celestant for exploding hits/damage on 5's, then attack something big for lay low the tyrants on 4's and try and get damned terrain for 3's.

All they while they had castellant lantern and staunch for a 2+ rerolling 1's save.

 

 

[heywoah_twitch]

Total Commitment is a common battleplan choice for tournaments and it's nearly an auto-loss for stormcast. Being decently armored low-model count when mortal wounds ignore armor and numbers capture objectives is not a good place to be. Ironjawz, beastclaw, and gutbusters feel your pain, except without the mountain of bells and whistles.

It's safe to say that in general if you're one of those armies whose 'thing' is being elite, then you aren't very competitive just from that - it's too detrimental to everything the game wants you to do. Hordes, movement, and synergies tend to blow "good stats" out of the water.

[Furuzzolo]

To be fair the NOVA lists look kinda elite and not horde-oriented, to me. 

[Marc Wilson]

SCE are coming for sure. The sample pool is comparatively small and the SCE book is very new. People are painting their armies. Jack will be the first to admit painting is not that strong a consideration so his made it to the table first - not many other sacrosanct armies yet - tbough pretty much everyone in the SCE WhatsApp seems to be making them. 

Power level? A little under Vanguard as that was sometimes auto-win. New lists feel a lot like Warrior Brotherhood.

[AaronWilson]

I think we will all hear the scream when that first unit of 30 sequitors come back on a 5+ from wherever we are in the world. 

[Marc Wilson]

Yeah it’s 100% coming because you can just keep stabbing away at it with command points until you roll a 5.

[XReN]

My 2 cents on Vanguard Wing
I started running it in GHB 1 and had great time when I was able to fit Tempest Lords SH in 1k pts with Venator as my general, great times, I really felt that SCE are elite being able to focus units with most of my army and taking out entire armies whille contesting the objectives
3 month before 2nd ed I got 30 libs ready and played full and proper VW, I usually included retributors or fulminators so I could absorb enemy charge with libs, stormstreak them away on my turn and countercharge with my heavy hitters. Even after all nerfs VW recieved t was still really, really good.
It was a hearthbreak for me when they killed vanguard wing, because of all our range I love Strike Chamber units the most (with Prosecutors being number one), and VW was a best way to play it.

[XReN]

Just now, Marc Wilson said:

Yeah it’s 100% coming because you can just keep stabbing away at it with command points until you roll a 5.

No you can't, it was FAQed soon after release of new book

[AdamR]

17 minutes ago, XReN said:

No you can't, it was FAQed soon after release of new book

This.

Plus Sequitors max out at 20 ?

[XReN]

And this is really stupid since Death gets it without any rolls and as many times a turn as they want, whille ALSO getting great goodies from legions, granted, only general can do this, but they can have very resilent character for being general.

[AaronWilson]

Ahh my bad It's only 40 wounds that can re-roll saving throw rolls

I don't think you can even begin to compare the way LoN can bring back units to SCE. 

[XReN]

30 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

Ahh my bad It's only 40 wounds that can re-roll saving throw rolls

I don't think you can even begin to compare the way LoN can bring back units to SCE. 

Yes, I can't. Because LoN can do it RELIABLY and COUNT ON IT, instead of just droping CP into the pit and wait for miracle.
Also, I had a game against Beastclaw Riders and they killed half of my army first turn, including 30 liberators whille losing 2 or 3 models. I'd like to spend CP and bring back a unit RELIABLY if I have to pay for it with weak artefact and weak trait

[XReN]

Tell me, how many Command Abilities out there have a chance (a really big chance) of not working?

[AaronWilson]

Arguably you can stop LoN ever using the command ability by being near the gravesites, which is worth discussing. 

LoN recursion is 100% better then SCE and arguably (a fairly convincing one) LoN is a better performing army then Stormcast Eternals.

I don't make the game and can't tell you why army and one army cannot but I don't think it's as easy saying X army can do this, why can't my army do the same. There is so may variables that go into that statement. 

[PJetski]

It's actually pretty easy to stop a LON player from getting value from their command ability, but like the Vanguard Wing in 1.0 I think the average player is going to struggle against it. 

[Aeonotakist]

1 hour ago, AaronWIlson said:

I think we will all hear the scream when that first unit of 30 sequitors come back on a 5+ from wherever we are in the world. 

 

1 hour ago, Marc Wilson said:

Yeah it’s 100% coming because you can just keep stabbing away at it with command points until you roll a 5.

Actually in the beginning it was working very well, I enjoyed watching my 20 Sequitors (BTW, 30 is not possible) back.

However, now they learnt how to deal with that.  A lot of games my 20 Sequitors died at the 5th round, when I was already doomed to lose.

 It is acceptable to leave 3~6 sequtors on the table, even they are all equipped with grand hammer. Except for the first round when they are launched by Sureheart, in other time these slow mover is not a big threaten.

 

Also, HoS host does need a lot of CP to run smoothly, cause the Sureheart is a only way to generate good contact for big base models. 

[XReN]

26 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

I don't make the game and can't tell you why army and one army cannot but I don't think it's as easy saying X army can do this, why can't my army do the same. There is so may variables that go into that statement. 

It's not like you mean it.
It's "why army A can do that good and army B can do that the way it's never gonna be in mind whille building a list" and if we look at overall picture with so crazy summoning mechanics as Slaanesh (I read their thread recently, Depravity Points are quite impressive), Seraphon, FEC etc... giving Stormcast (in 1 of 9 ways to build a list) an ability to get units (2 types) back (dropping 30 40mm bases back on the table mid-game 9" away from all enemy models ain't gonna be much easier then summoning from gravesite) is not going to make a game-breaking rule.

[AaronWilson]

It sounds like you're fairly convinced one way XReN and I'm not changing it, so I'll end my discussion there .

[XReN]

It's just another poorly designed rule that we cursed to recieve again and again, hoping to get it fixed. We are posterboys who was sitting around a year and a half with literaly the worst battle trait in the game.

[Requizen]

9 hours ago, Aeonotakist said:

Not exactly, they are placed 25th in blackout and 13 in Nova, which are the most recent tournament. We had another game with 24 top players in China and SCE was right the 20 and 24 place.

 

the only recent game they got top 1 is BOBO. But that one has house rules in favor of SCE like you can only revive one unit per turn.

SCE were 6th at NOVA based on pure battle points. Paint skewed the Overall top 10 very heavily. They were 6-2, which is pretty good.

9 hours ago, schwabbele said:

Skinks?

Time will tell. *glassball mode* I call our win% will go down. The BOBO win was an exception which will not happen again.  /remind me

Skinks are very good for Stormcast.

The Gavriel list will continue to do well at events once people learn to pilot it correctly. Jack Armstrong is an exceedingly good player (one of the best AoS players currently imo) and thinks Stormcast can reliably go undefeated at events. But I'm sure being pessimistic on a forum is the same as having a bunch of experience and trophies.

4 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Total Commitment is a common battleplan choice for tournaments and it's nearly an auto-loss for stormcast. Being decently armored low-model count when mortal wounds ignore armor and numbers capture objectives is not a good place to be. Ironjawz, beastclaw, and gutbusters feel your pain, except without the mountain of bells and whistles.

It's safe to say that in general if you're one of those armies whose 'thing' is being elite, then you aren't very competitive just from that - it's too detrimental to everything the game wants you to do. Hordes, movement, and synergies tend to blow "good stats" out of the water.

Foot SCE are fine. Stardrake + Fulmis still work. Gavriel bomb works even without Scions since there are at least 2 ways to teleport in the list and you still get +6" or +9" charges, which means the Sequitors and Evos will butcher whatever is in front. 

The top running lists at NOVA were extremely elite. The Khorne list had like, what, 25 models?

2 hours ago, XReN said:

And this is really stupid since Death gets it without any rolls and as many times a turn as they want, whille ALSO getting great goodies from legions, granted, only general can do this, but they can have very resilent character for being general.

Because Sequitors and Liberators are clearly the same power level as Zombies. If I could guarantee bring back 20 Sequitors for a CP I would bring 100 of them and never lose a game. What a joke.

[XReN]

6 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Because Sequitors and Liberators are clearly the same power level as Zombies. If I could guarantee bring back 20 Sequitors for a CP I would bring 100 of them and never lose a game. What a joke.

What about graveguard? Or grimgast reapers? There are a lot of great units that can perform on the same level as Libs or Seqs. Also I never said that it should not be balanced, but making it random is not balance, it's poor rule writing, on the other hand making it once per game - is balance.