NOVA Open Age of Sigmar Grand Tounament Top 10 Results (with lists!)

[JackStreicher]

Nice results and all but I have a (meta?) critique:

every LoN has Nagash. Ofc every army with named characters has them. Ofc only the most point efficient units are taken.

every army didn‘t go for a balanced build but instead a spam List. - This makes for incredibly boring repetitive match ups and opponents. But that‘s just my taste and I will get spammed by the comp players anyway - the hunt for breaking the Meta is SUPERIOR after all??‍♂️ (As it seems). Also the List is ofc all that matters.

 

is there any big event that goes for balanced narrative lists where people actually try to be great generals without having their list win for them? (I need a link please)  *in Europe

[Num]

25 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Because painting often is part of a GT score, I spend a couple thousand dollars paying someone with a proven painting competition award record to paint my army so that I can get max score in painting.

I also hire a friendly body actress to play on my behalf in order to max out the sportsmanship score. She is directed by a pro player with a tournaments track record whispering in her earphones.

I sit back and have a beer while winning the competitions.

As Skavens, we know that the best battles are the ones we are not risking ourselves in

[stato]

13 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Nice results and all but I have a (meta?) critique:

every LoN has Nagash. Ofc every army with named characters has them. Ofc only the most point efficient units are taken.

every army didn‘t go for a balanced build but instead a spam List. - This makes for incredibly boring repetitive match ups and opponents. But that‘s just my taste and I will get spammed by the comp players anyway - the hunt for breaking the Meta is SUPERIOR after all??‍♂️ (As it seems). Also the List is ofc all that matters.

 

is there any big event that goes for balanced narrative lists where people actually try to be great generals without having their list win for them? (I need a link please)  *in Europe

There are narrative events you can attend.  But if you go to a competition then players will try to build strong lists.   Lists dont win though, players do, and if the player cant play well they will still lose.  What do you call a balanced list??  You cant just spam these days, the scenario objective criteria are broad and define what a balanced list must look like.

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ MOD HAT ON +++

Folks - Less about the painting and sports scores please. All details for how the scoring would work at the event was available beforehand, so it shouldn't be a shock to anybody attending. 

If it's not something you agree with, then that's fine but just remember that everybody attending this event would be aware how scoring worked  

[Gaz Taylor]

12 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

every army didn‘t go for a balanced build but instead a spam List. - This makes for incredibly boring repetitive match ups and opponents. But that‘s just my taste and I will get spammed by the comp players anyway - the hunt for breaking the Meta is SUPERIOR after all??‍♂️ (As it seems). Also the List is ofc all that matters.

Part of the issue is we are still very fresh into 2nd edition and lots and lots of people are still finding their feet.  

[Dead Scribe]

18 minutes ago, stato said:

There are narrative events you can attend.  But if you go to a competition then players will try to build strong lists.   Lists dont win though, players do, and if the player cant play well they will still lose.  What do you call a balanced list??  You cant just spam these days, the scenario objective criteria are broad and define what a balanced list must look like.

Even narrative events are largely about building strong lists that break the game's boundaries.  Thats just what tabletop gaming is about at events for the most part.  I'm a diehard tourney player and I'll be the first to admit, the list is mostly everything yes.  Good players aren't going to play weak lists if they are trying to win an event.  

[JackStreicher]

4 minutes ago, stato said:

There are narrative events you can attend.  But if you go to a competition then players will try to build strong lists.   Lists dont win though, players do, and if the player cant play well they will still lose.  What do you call a balanced list??  You cant just spam these days, the scenario objective criteria are broad and define what a balanced list must look like.

Balanced lists: greater variation of units. Choosing units for every phase of the game and not relying on a single tactic.

Did Nova use any of the realmscape features? 

[Jamopower]

Just out of general interest. How many players there were?

[JackStreicher]

44 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Thats just what tabletop gaming is about at events for the most part. 

I disagree it‘s just the majority of vocal players. 

I found way more joy in not playing the The Meta-Breaker way since it reduces the whole hobby to a fraction of what  it is (I’d even dare to say -No offense- that the competetive way is rather dumb) which is utterly Absurd to me.

 

but this is off topic and belongs in another topic. If anyone wants to continue this discussion feel free to pm me =]

[sal4m4nd3r]

3 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Because painting often is part of a GT score, I spend a couple thousand dollars paying someone with a proven painting competition award record to paint my army so that I can get max score in painting.

This is certainly a viable approach. I hold no grudge against people for using a painting service and even benditting from that in an event.  In a straight up painting competition that’s obviously not cool. 

4 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

Both armies were painted, based, converted, etc. with display boards. 

The decision came down to painting, and when challenged, the rubric should be pulled out and gone through by the judges side-by-side.

I don’t know how @Black_Fortress_Immortal Wasn’t able to eat information about paint score. I went up to the TOS and asked if I could know my paint score. He asked my name, a few taps on the iPad and showed me I got a perfect paint score. Told me then and there I was nominated for best painted and need to bring my display board and set it up day two. 

If you go up the them when people are tossing score sheets at them..probably not going to get a detailed response. The TOs were not the only ones judging paint scores. I know for a fact my army was personally judged by Pete foley (GW game designer). So if you ask “why is this my paint score” and that wasn’t the guy who judged your army...they won’t know.

they can show your point score sheet..but there is no explanation there. 

[sal4m4nd3r]

2 hours ago, Jamopower said:

Just out of general interest. How many players there were?

98 signed up. 88 day one entrants 

[sal4m4nd3r]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Balanced lists: greater variation of units. Choosing units for every phase of the game and not relying on a single tactic.

Did Nova use any of the realmscape features? 

Realm of battle and realmscape features were used. Each round had a predetermined realm of battle and predetermined realmscape feature. 

Rounds 1-3 were in Gyran. Round one was knife to the heart and “verdant landscape.” Round 2 was places of arcane power and the realmscape feature was “Lifesprings” Round three was battle of the pass with “seeds of hope” realmscape feature. 

Rounds 4-6 were in Chamon. Round 4 was duality of death with the “rust plague” realmscape feature. Round 5 was Starstrike with “irresistible force” realmscape feature. Round 6 was focal points with “metallic hinterlands” realmscape feature.

[Dead Scribe]

This is certainly a viable approach. I hold no grudge against people for using a painting service and even benditting from that in an event.  In a straight up painting competition that’s obviously not cool. 

I wouldn't try to pass off someone else's painting as my own in a painting competition.  This is purely so that I get max painting score so that my chances of winning the event aren't diminished simply because I can't paint very well.  I wish painting scores weren't a part of a tournament score and were only a thing for painting competitions, after all in a painting competition we dont judge the sportsmanship or gamesmanship of the person entering the piece either, but it is what it is.

 

[JackStreicher]

19 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Realm of battle and realmscape features were used. Each round had a predetermined realm of battle and predetermined realmscape feature. 

Rounds 1-3 were in Gyran. Round one was knife to the heart and “verdant landscape.” Round 2 was places of arcane power and the realmscape feature was “Lifesprings” Round three was battle of the pass with “seeds of hope” realmscape feature. 

Rounds 4-6 were in Chamon. Round 4 was duality of death with the “rust plague” realmscape feature. Round 5 was Starstrike with “irresistible force” realmscape feature. Round 6 was focal points with “metallic hinterlands” realmscape feature.

Well. I looked them up and none of them would make a player think twice about his army’s composition. For more balanced lists youd‘d need to randomize it and also pick realms with extreme effects:

ulgu - think twice about 4 ballistas

chamon steel rain: think twice about 2x 30 Grimghasts and other hordes.

aqshy  burning skies - think twice about spamming Khinerai.

aqshy clouds of smoke and steam - think twice about too much magic or shooting

etc. Etc.

the realmscapes picked change nothing, they only granted minor buffs - which is not the sense of them.

-> so they didn‘t have realmscape features in order for people to continue with their lists-building without having to think about what units they picked apart from point-effectiveness.

it‘s funny that list building is a Central part for competetive gaming, but once sth. Could interfere with the mindset of listbuilding and would add actual complexity to listbuilding it is ignored. 

☹️

[Dead Scribe]

Thats why I say that, at least for tournament players and competitive players, list building is the central tenant.   But I think thats just how most games are these days.

 

[Overread]

1 minute ago, Dead Scribe said:

Thats why I say that, at least for tournament players and competitive players, list building is the central tenant.   But I think thats just how most games are these days.

 

I think they've always been that way for any competitive player. The times when it likely wasn't were likely way back when most of us started and were too young to afford owning more than one army combination or only having one or two models to swap out; or just didn't appreciate anything more than putting toy soliders on a battlefield. 

 

 

[WoollyMammoth]

This topic has digressed far too into rage about "painting matters". That was not my point at all. As I stated, I am a painter and I care about painting. I have no respect for people who get 3 coats on just to smash face at a tournament. I have every respect for someone who is trying their best but does not have a lot of painting talent. You can easily tell the difference. 

My main concern is BAD BEHAVIOR being REWARDED at tournaments.

There is talk on the 40k side about making tabletop legitimately competitive. Every sport or eSport is moderated, where tabletop games are not - there is no 'referee' watching the games. The balance of the game (and the prevention of cheating and poor behavior) is balanced only by the social contract. At NOVA, this social contract was bent and broken to its limits at the top tables. This needs to be prevented if tournaments are going to be thought of as an enjoyable experience by the community (and attendance is going to go up rather than down).
 

16 hours ago, High Overlord Xenu said:

You have provided no evidence of cheating or incorrect TO rulings, just second-hand accounts with no effort to refute the first-hand accounts that contradict you.

Edit: Furthermore, I have come to learn that the "bloodthirster on a tank" was a last-minute walk-in that was allowed by the judges in order to make the matchups even. It was not expressly made for AoS.

Obviously I cannot provide evidence, that is a big part of the problem. I know for a fact all of these things happened, you can choose to believe it or not. I am saying this in hopes that the TO's can learn and improve. They can dismiss me but if this is how tournaments are going to run - I won't be attending any and they will regress to mainly including whiny, immature, over-competitive cheaters.

So why was a model that was barely allowed given so many painting points that he surpassed those with better scores in the rankings? That makes no sense.
 

14 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Listen you all can say that painting and sports doesn’t matter, or you are disappointed with how the scoring works.. but don’t take anything away from the people that worked their asses off for every point. Some of these armies were STUNNING. The top level eel deepkin list was ridiculously beautiful. His volturnos was golden demon level good.and he earned the points he got for his months of work. 

AoS painting is always beautiful. I never said there should be no painting incentive. There should just be at least an independent 'best general' so that people on the internet can see what lists are doing well independent of objective things that they cannot see, like painting.

Combining painting and scores, you cant get a handle on either. The best painted army could have lost all their games and came 80th place. The best general could have bad painting and come in 20th. Its fine if you want to give the 'grand prize' to someone with combined scores but here on the internet we need to be able to separate the two.

In terms of painting scores, I have never attended a tournament which I would rate even satisfactory execution of paint judging. They are usually one hour arbitrary popularity contests within the small gaps between games - a time when most people are frantically trying to get something to eat. Adepticon has the Crystal Brush but that is a separate thing - you generally are either playing a tournament OR participating in the painting. The only tournament I've ever heard of which gives army painters their proper due is SCGT. As a painter I want to see more tournaments organize a proper painting judging and not halfass it like I see at nearly every tournament. 

Also to be clear, painting is the least of my concerns. I'm far more concerned about the cheating, immature behavior, over competitive attitude and bad moderating rampant at the top 10 tables that is being rewarded rather than punished.

@hughwyeth
There is a big divide between 40k painting and AoS painting. I have never seen a '3 color minimum' AoS army at any tournament. They appear here and there (but frankly, they are usually 40k players playing AoS .. lol)
 

7 hours ago, stato said:

Honestly, its like anything talked about on the internet, in real life nothing is as big a deal as it seems online.  Im a basic level painter, and probably below average gamer (ill take the stupid move over the tactical choice if there is a chance i could pull off something glorious and crazy).  I have played in a few this last 2 years and always have a blast, ive even won a few best-sports awards. Like anything, take a good attitude into it and you will have a good time.

I understand your point, I lost my first couple games at LVO, and had a great time. All my opponents were great and I enjoyed the whole tournament.

Unfortunately, It's hard to keep a good attitude when your opponent is being an immature ******. Your own attitude is only half the table. I have a great attitude at the start of all my games, but I've had to walk away from games because my opponent was a belligerent ******. If you are playing the top tables you are kind of locked in and have to deal with it. This is exactly what happened to one player I know who attended NOVA.  




 

[WoollyMammoth]

The other topic was closed so I have to say this:

- My accounts are first hand from a family member.
- I have nothing against NOVA. If not for these reports I would have considered going next year
- I do not know anyone in the official final top 10, and I do not care what the final results were. I am related to someone who played two games at the final top 10, who went with a club of guys, some of whom did very well and were also at the top tables.

My point is that terrible attitude & cheating was not policed at NOVA. This means the culprits have learned they can get away with it, and sends a message to others that they can get away with it too.

If you are like me, and want to have fun games where your opponents play fair without any shady behavior, this is a very bad sign. Cheating and bad behavior has been a big theme of 40k tournaments lately (you can look into the facts and first hand reports on your own) and it seems this behavior is now becoming a part of the AoS scene as well.

Believe me or not, this affects the community. Hopefully some action is taken to turn this around.

[Mr. White]

No dog in this fight, not really a tournament player, but several posts today read like the discussion of NOVA events should be posted over in 'The Rumors Thread'.

[Dead Scribe]

There is talk on the 40k side about making tabletop legitimately competitive.

There is talk on both AOS and 40k for this and I am praying for it to come true.  I played world championship style Magic the Gathering and its a thrill to attend legit world championships and have that level of competition present, live streaming, potential endorsements, being able to play the game for a living!

[mikethefish]

49 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

 

 

There is talk on both AOS and 40k for this and I am praying for it to come true.  I played world championship style Magic the Gathering and its a thrill to attend legit world championships and have that level of competition present, live streaming, potential endorsements, being able to play the game for a living!

I get that there is some baggage/negative feelings about the game, but Warmachine/Hordes has the most robust official set of tournament rules thatI have ever seen for a miniatures game.

Let's face it - GW and other Indi tournament organizers have already dipped their toes into copying the Steamroller tournament system.  People who are familiar with that rules packet have already probably noticed that.  Might be worthwhile to go a step further with that and mimick/learn from Steamroller even more

[scrollbuilderdude]

Attended this event and that's my Legions of Nagash (with no Nagash!) sitting up there at 9th. Had 6 great opponents and games, and my 2 losses were really close. 

I'll give a third shout out to my good friend Joe Urban going 5-1 with his ogres! 

[Dead Scribe]

4 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

I get that there is some baggage/negative feelings about the game, but Warmachine/Hordes has the most robust official set of tournament rules thatI have ever seen for a miniatures game.

Let's face it - GW and other Indi tournament organizers have already dipped their toes into copying the Steamroller tournament system.  People who are familiar with that rules packet have already probably noticed that.  Might be worthwhile to go a step further with that and mimick/learn from Steamroller even more

I'm happy for whatever so long as its run professionally and adds to the credibility of a world title.

[Requizen]

2 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

There is talk on both AOS and 40k for this and I am praying for it to come true.  I played world championship style Magic the Gathering and its a thrill to attend legit world championships and have that level of competition present, live streaming, potential endorsements, being able to play the game for a living!

I would be really interested in them doing this, but man, I can't take the idea of "pro tabletop games" seriously. Balance in pretty much every wargame is tenuous as best, and randomness really kills the thrill of true competition for me unless they start doing like Bo5 or Bo7 formats.

[Kirjava13]

8 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Because painting often is part of a GT score, I spend a couple thousand dollars paying someone with a proven painting competition award record to paint my army so that I can get max score in painting.

And you don't see anything fundamentally dishonest about this?