Balancing the Stormcast

[Black Blade]

I had some time to go over the Stormcast today and taking into account my last ten games I've come to some conclusions about what I believe could be done to balance and sensibly adjust the internal workings of the faction. This is not exhaustive. I haven't even gotten into our battalions; which in my opinion are almost all unplayable in any kind of competitive environment save one or two. This is also intended to spark conversation so please, contradict me! I hope this post takes off and we get a good bit of discussion in here, thank you in advance for your time considering the following...

 

-Liberators remain at 100pts but cap at 20 for 360. Sequitors go to 140-160pts capping at 440.

-Paladins fall, using Retributors as a baseline to 180-200pts and Evocators rise to 220-240pts. (Personally I'd like to see a buff to paladins to reflect their abilities as described by the lore.)

-Judicators stay constant and Castigators become battleline in the same manner as Sequitors. (Reasom here being the stormcast have maybe 6ish shooting options and Judicators are taken 95% of the time due to being the only ranged focused battleline option.)

-Dracothian Guard remain the same as do Evocators on Dracolines. I have heard arguments to the contrary and that is why I list it here. 

-Prosecutors fall to 80 points. 

-Gryph hounds to 100 points.

-Lord Exorcist to 100 points.

-Change wording on all special characters from "Hammers of Sigmar" to "Unit with the same Stormhost Keyword" so that no one is locked from having a special character because they play/paint a different host as in the old days.

[GeneralZero]

I'd be so glad to see the prosecutors on a battlefield. Their only problem is actually their price. At 70/80ish, they'd be interesting as a fast unit (and love the models).

Same goes to knight-venator, a bit expensive.

[Kako]

32 minutes ago, Black Blade said:

-Change wording on all special characters from "Hammers of Sigmar" to "Unit with the same Stormhost Keyword" so that no one is locked from having a special character because they play/paint a different host as in the old days.

This.

[Black Blade]

46 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

I'd be so glad to see the prosecutors on a battlefield. Their only problem is actually their price. At 70/80ish, they'd be interesting as a fast unit (and love the models).

Same goes to knight-venator, a bit expensive.

I'm glad you think so, I was thinking about how slow the army is in general and what could I use as a fast attack option and then I was like oh yeah, prosecutors.  How could that be viable? Well I would need at least a 6 man squad. Two grand hammers, one shield and the rest on double hammers. That's 200 fragile but fast and long charging points. Why take that when I can just blow up 30 man units with Evocators and not worry about the backfield at all? So I figured 140-160 area for 6 dudes would make sense.

[Yoshiya]

Don't agree with the named character changes at all as it just cheapens the named characters. Why even make them named if they can appear in literally any list? They could just be generic at that point.

The mistake GW made was making them all the same stormhost. Adding a few more to other stormhosts is the proper solution in my mind.

Done well named characters are a great way to add character to a stormhosts beyond just their basic bonuses, done poorly (as they have been) they are just a way to limit choice.

[Carnelian]

Gavriel needs to go up, up and up! 

He's such a no-brainer that any other list becomes difficult to jjstify

[The World Tree]

 

The Lord Exorcist is fine for his points , he's still a wizard so can contribute from range using the SCE spells/endless spells. He's bad by comparison to the Incantor, who should probably be a smidgeon higher.

The biggest problems in the list are;

Evocators - design wise the mortal wound rule feels way. Just make it unmodified 6s to hit = additional mortal wound. Then make them 220. Much more intuitive.

Castigators - delete

Sequitors - need to be completely rewritten. They are a very oddly designed unit in a number of ways. At current level 160 is a nice amount because it discourages bigger units which are where they become awkward.

Most other things are roughly fine. Paladins might need a slight drop. Prosecutors are still pointless - not sure points are the solution.

 

[Cerlin]

So by "balance" you mean "make even better." Good to know.

I am happy to play against stormcast, but they are the swiss army knife of armies. They have the most battalions, the most troop choices, and no holes, only the ones you make. No single model can be judged in isolation.

This is before you count the new stormhosts, all the upgrades, armor, magic, prayers, etc.

I do not think they need any word change buffs. I have not played against them enough in the new edition, but complaints about the faction not being balanced floors me.

An example. Complaints about Judicators being pricey. They are a little at 160. But before considering the great battletome battleline inflation, look at Free Guild Handgunners. 10 models for 100. Battle line. 9 normal 5/3/-1/1 and a sniper. 6+ armor, slow, and less range than a Judicator. No heavy armor or melee capacity.

Then bring in the battle tome and I think 10 Judicators are equal or better to 30 handgunners (which are around the same price.)

[Vasshpit]

14 minutes ago, The World Tree said:

 

Castigators - delete

 

Reason? Havent used yet but seem pretty good i thought.

[Black Blade]

47 minutes ago, Cerlin said:

So by "balance" you mean "make even better." Good to know.

I am happy to play against stormcast, but they are the swiss army knife of armies. They have the most battalions, the most troop choices, and no holes, only the ones you make. No single model can be judged in isolation.

This is before you count the new stormhosts, all the upgrades, armor, magic, prayers, etc.

I do not think they need any word change buffs. I have not played against them enough in the new edition, but complaints about the faction not being balanced floors me.

An example. Complaints about Judicators being pricey. They are a little at 160. But before considering the great battletome battleline inflation, look at Free Guild Handgunners. 10 models for 100. Battle line. 9 normal 5/3/-1/1 and a sniper. 6+ armor, slow, and less range than a Judicator. No heavy armor or melee capacity.

Then bring in the battle tome and I think 10 Judicators are equal or better to 30 handgunners (which are around the same price.)

Your opening criticism of my using the term balance is unfair. I have noted in more than one area where certain units need to go up in price. This post was about internal balance, and you critique making them better in general being a negative. Stormcast are not tier 1 anyway. Also I never said the Judicators were too pricey, I called out a problem with them in fact. They do have the most battalions but quantity is not quality. In all that they do have only one gets taken nowadays which is a problem for internal balance. 

[Black Blade]

2 hours ago, Yoshiya said:

Don't agree with the named character changes at all as it just cheapens the named characters. Why even make them named if they can appear in literally any list? They could just be generic at that point.

The mistake GW made was making them all the same stormhost. Adding a few more to other stormhosts is the proper solution in my mind.

Done well named characters are a great way to add character to a stormhosts beyond just their basic bonuses, done poorly (as they have been) they are just a way to limit choice.

I don't necessarily disagree, however my suggestion that all special characters be available to every stormhost was based on the belief that I don't think GW would or is going to make kits for other characters. I think its always going to be Hammers of Sigmar and I think they are just going to have a  dearth of them and the rest of us just look in from the outside.  

[Black Blade]

1 hour ago, The World Tree said:

 

The Lord Exorcist is fine for his points , he's still a wizard so can contribute from range using the SCE spells/endless spells. He's bad by comparison to the Incantor, who should probably be a smidgeon higher.

The biggest problems in the list are;

Evocators - design wise the mortal wound rule feels way. Just make it unmodified 6s to hit = additional mortal wound. Then make them 220. Much more intuitive.

Castigators - delete

Sequitors - need to be completely rewritten. They are a very oddly designed unit in a number of ways. At current level 160 is a nice amount because it discourages bigger units which are where they become awkward.

Most other things are roughly fine. Paladins might need a slight drop. Prosecutors are still pointless - not sure points are the solution.

 

I like the Evocators as they are except on points, if your opponent approaches them correctly they can significantly reduce their effectiveness. It might drop to 1 die per model. 

Sequitors getting a rewrite sounds fine to me. I think channeling is fine and quite interesting lore-wise but how it plays out is overpowered and uninteresting. Channeling shields should give a 6+ save after the save or maybe a 5+ vs mortal wounds and channeling weapons could have 1 extra damage on the attack on a natural 6. Something like that. If there is one problem I have with AoS its everything seems to reroll all the time to the point numbers on a die seem pointless at times. 

[Kako]

43 minutes ago, Black Blade said:

I don't necessarily disagree, however my suggestion that all special characters be available to every stormhost was based on the belief that I don't think GW would or is going to make kits for other characters. I think its always going to be Hammers of Sigmar and I think they are just going to have a  dearth of them and the rest of us just look in from the outside.  

Hamilcar Bear-Eater... Zephacleas Beast-Bane... Knight-Azyros Vandalus... My Astral Templars are waiting...

[schwabbele]

I think it is too early for change. More data is needed to see in which direction we need to change. 

[Bellfree]

10 hours ago, Black Blade said:

I had some time to go over the Stormcast today and taking into account my last ten games I've come to some conclusions about what I believe could be done to balance and sensibly adjust the internal workings of the faction. This is not exhaustive. I haven't even gotten into our battalions; which in my opinion are almost all unplayable in any kind of competitive environment save one or two. This is also intended to spark conversation so please, contradict me! I hope this post takes off and we get a good bit of discussion in here, thank you in advance for your time considering the following...

 

-Liberators remain at 100pts but cap at 20 for 360. Sequitors go to 140-160pts capping at 440.

-Paladins fall, using Retributors as a baseline to 180-200pts and Evocators rise to 220-240pts. (Personally I'd like to see a buff to paladins to reflect their abilities as described by the lore.)

-Judicators stay constant and Castigators become battleline in the same manner as Sequitors. (Reasom here being the stormcast have maybe 6ish shooting options and Judicators are taken 95% of the time due to being the only ranged focused battleline option.)

-Dracothian Guard remain the same as do Evocators on Dracolines. I have heard arguments to the contrary and that is why I list it here. 

-Prosecutors fall to 80 points. 

-Gryph hounds to 100 points.

-Lord Exorcist to 100 points.

-Change wording on all special characters from "Hammers of Sigmar" to "Unit with the same Stormhost Keyword" so that no one is locked from having a special character because they play/paint a different host as in the old days.

Dracothian guard and Dracolines need almost as much help as paladins do atm. Tempestors are unusable, especially compared to how they used to be; Desolators were already the worst ones but took a pretty significant nerf anyway, Concussors are STILL overcosted, and Fulminators are still good but are definitely feeling the loss of their superior breath attack,

Evocators on Dracolines are  way too expensive for their durability (100pts for 5 wounds at 4+ is iffy for a character with good buff abilities, for heavy cav it's way too much).

They just don't seem like they work. None of them are super offensive powerhouses by any stretch of the imagination, only the Draothian guard are particularly resilient and the fact that they all have such huge price tags attached to such low wound counts means that any amount of mortal wounds makes them largely irrelevant. There's also no relevant supporting unit. Finding out the Dracolines were 300pts was a nut punch. If they had been 3 wounds each in units of 5 with worse offense for 140-160 they would have been MUCH more useful. Battleline-if would have been killer too. We desperately needed LIGHT cavalry, we already had plenty of heavy cav. Maybe they'll drop palladors down to 180 and cavalry armies will have a bit more freedom.

 

[Bellfree]

5 hours ago, The World Tree said:

 

The Lord Exorcist is fine for his points , he's still a wizard so can contribute from range using the SCE spells/endless spells. He's bad by comparison to the Incantor, who should probably be a smidgeon higher.

The biggest problems in the list are;

Evocators - design wise the mortal wound rule feels way. Just make it unmodified 6s to hit = additional mortal wound. Then make them 220. Much more intuitive.

Castigators - delete

Sequitors - need to be completely rewritten. They are a very oddly designed unit in a number of ways. At current level 160 is a nice amount because it discourages bigger units which are where they become awkward.

Most other things are roughly fine. Paladins might need a slight drop. Prosecutors are still pointless - not sure points are the solution.

 

I disagree, the incantor is fine, the exorcist is about 40pts too expensive. If you do that with Evocators then they'll be essentially exactly the same as retributors, they're already too similar as it is.

Castigators...yeah.

Sequitors are about 40pts too cheap in units of 20, but are closer to where they should be than a lot of the stuff stormcast have.

Paladins are bad. They've been bad since hammerstrike got nerfed the first time. Most of the cavalry is either a bit subpar or straight up useless(fulminators just barely clinging to relevance.) Most of the non-castellant/Stardrake/Arcanmum/Incantor heroes are on the borderline. Battalions are mostly awful. They really did not do a good job with this codex.

[XReN]

5 hours ago, Black Blade said:

I like the Evocators as they are except on points, if your opponent approaches them correctly they can significantly reduce their effectiveness. It might drop to 1 die per model. 

Sequitors getting a rewrite sounds fine to me. I think channeling is fine and quite interesting lore-wise but how it plays out is overpowered and uninteresting. Channeling shields should give a 6+ save after the save or maybe a 5+ vs mortal wounds and channeling weapons could have 1 extra damage on the attack on a natural 6. Something like that. If there is one problem I have with AoS its everything seems to reroll all the time to the point numbers on a die seem pointless at times. 

Man, sequitors are fine, channeling is a bless. Where I play I get to face ressurecting hords of undead, followed by debuffs (also my friend who plays Death haven't lost a single game in the new edition) as well as hords of double wounded bonesplitters so the only way I can deal with that much wounds - new sacrosanct units. 
Old units need to be insanly buffed to be ever used again (except heroes, juds, longstrikes and mb fuminators)

[Black Blade]

1 hour ago, Bellfree said:

Dracothian guard and Dracolines need almost as much help as paladins do atm. Tempestors are unusable, especially compared to how they used to be; Desolators were already the worst ones but took a pretty significant nerf anyway, Concussors are STILL overcosted, and Fulminators are still good but are definitely feeling the loss of their superior breath attack,

Evocators on Dracolines are  way too expensive for their durability (100pts for 5 wounds at 4+ is iffy for a character with good buff abilities, for heavy cav it's way too much).

They just don't seem like they work. None of them are super offensive powerhouses by any stretch of the imagination, only the Draothian guard are particularly resilient and the fact that they all have such huge price tags attached to such low wound counts means that any amount of mortal wounds makes them largely irrelevant. There's also no relevant supporting unit. Finding out the Dracolines were 300pts was a nut punch. If they had been 3 wounds each in units of 5 with worse offense for 140-160 they would have been MUCH more useful. Battleline-if would have been killer too. We desperately needed LIGHT cavalry, we already had plenty of heavy cav. Maybe they'll drop palladors down to 180 and cavalry armies will have a bit more freedom.

 

I currently run a ten man Evocator unit and a 3 man on Dracolines. They are excellent as a one turn assassin but as you say they are not well protected. In my opinion they should go up to the 3+ save, it doesnt really step on the D Guard because they dont get the rerolls in close combat and most units are fighting with rend now. those 5 wounds a model dont mean much at -1 or -2 rend. So in short, yea give them a 3+ save. Ive given up on all axe wielding stormcast but all paladins are over costed except maybe the spear boys.

[Black Blade]

1 minute ago, XReN said:

Man, sequitors are fine, channeling is a bless. Where I play I get to face ressurecting hords of undead, followed by debuffs (also my friend who plays Death haven't lost a single game in the new edition) as well as hords of double wounded bonesplitters so the only way I can deal with that much wounds - new sacrosanct units. 
Old units need to be insanly buffed to be ever used again (except heroes, juds, longstrikes and mb fuminators)

I feel you on Death. I said somewhere on the thread earlier, Stormcast is not tier one however I sacrosanct brought me back into the game but I dont have fun playing the Sequitors against almost everyone except Death so I would say Death is the problem here. As I said before its like re-roll overkill and Death basically has the same problem they just where things stop mattering where you bring everything back as if all the actions from the previous round meant nothing.

[Kurrilino]

Stormcast are now top tier in Hero Phase, Movement, Shooting and Combat after they received access to magic and more pew pew units.

I totally agree they need to be way cheaper.

Way to go

[XReN]

2 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Stormcast are now top tier in Hero Phase, Movement, Shooting and Combat after they received access to magic and more pew pew units.

I totally agree they need to be way cheaper.

Way to go

Show me on this doll where stormcasts hurt you

[Black Blade]

3 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Stormcast are now top tier in Hero Phase, Movement, Shooting and Combat after they received access to magic and more pew pew units.

I totally agree they need to be way cheaper.

Way to go

You are going to have to back that up with evidence. Specifically how they outclass Legions of Nagash, Nighthaunt, Deepkin and Daughters of Khaine. Im looking forward to this... 

[XReN]

10 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Stormcast are now top tier in Hero Phase, Movement, Shooting and Combat after they received access to magic and more pew pew units.

I totally agree they need to be way cheaper.

Way to go

Salt mode off
If you are playing for fun and feel like SCE are overpowered -  just ask your fellow player to bring a list of equal strenght and have your fun.
 

[GeneralZero]

 

6 hours ago, Black Blade said:

Prosecutors are still pointless - not sure points are the solution.

I don't agree. If they were cheaper, I'd play them, because:

- I love the miniature, which is a ésignature" design for the stormcast. Shame that they are NEVER in an army list nore a battlefield

- I love fast units and it is our fastest!

- I love little units to make my oponent waste his time and temper. This unit is perfect for backline harassment or ranged enemy counter unit

- they are nice support to block enemy, to support our troops

They can have so many usage. But they are not heavy hitters. I feel that at 150/160 for 6 they should be perfect. At 200 they can't be in a list because of (so much) better choice in our armies.

 

[XReN]

27 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

 

I don't agree. If they were cheaper, I'd play them, because:

- I love the miniature, which is a ésignature" design for the stormcast. Shame that they are NEVER in an army list nore a battlefield

- I love fast units and it is our fastest!

- I love little units to make my oponent waste his time and temper. This unit is perfect for backline harassment or ranged enemy counter unit

- they are nice support to block enemy, to support our troops

They can have so many usage. But they are not heavy hitters. I feel that at 150/160 for 6 they should be perfect. At 200 they can't be in a list because of (so much) better choice in our armies.

 

I had so much hope that GW will buff Pros(
I'd like to bring them always and I did before 2nd ED