Wrath and Rapture

[Karragon]

12 hours ago, Waiyuren said:

Picked up my box a few hours ago, got lunch, came home and put Warhammer Weekly on for background noise before getting stuck in.

The Fiend kit is brutal... For comparison; I didn't really find the Exalted Chariot in the SC! box too challenging, but these things... It's taken me an hour to assemble one. 😅 

I found it very different. The Fiends, which reminded me a lot of a Stonehorn in assembly, I did all 3 of in about 45mins total...the Enrapturess on the other hand probably took about that long on her own

[Carnelian]

33 minutes ago, Karragon said:

I found it very different. The Fiends, which reminded me a lot of a Stonehorn in assembly, I did all 3 of in about 45mins total...the Enrapturess on the other hand probably took about that long on her own

How is the Enrapturess model? Looking cool? 

[Karragon]

8 minutes ago, Carnelian said:

How is the Enrapturess model? Looking cool? 

Once the rage...or should that be Wrath...had subsided it looked kind cool. Couple of glue + fingerprint marks that I hope the paint will cover from trying to get her dress to line up. 

 

[Carnelian]

Hahah cool model... My brother's wife plays the harp...i feel like crab claws would not normally be seen as the best way to play a harp 

[Waiyuren]

2 hours ago, Karragon said:

I found it very different. The Fiends, which reminded me a lot of a Stonehorn in assembly, I did all 3 of in about 45mins total...the Enrapturess on the other hand probably took about that long on her own

Yeah, the first one was tricky but also the hardest, the rest flew by. I've never built a stonehorn, but the body construction reminded me of a carnosaur, just with some pieces of the chest being only 3mm by 25mm... I'm probably exaggerating, but clearly remember saying "how the ****?" quite a lot.

That dress is a pain in the bum. Same deal, it's in 4 different pieces. I got the back part on fine, but accidentally put the leg-fold on half a mil too high and had to shave it back. 😅

[Gotrek]

7 hours ago, Killax said:

</snip>
Stacking Frenzy with Bloodletters was the only relevant boost the army had left. </snip>

It was a crutch holding us back. I seriously don't get why khorne players are so whiny. When they nerfed sayl ya'll screamed that khorne was dead. When they fixed secrators y'all cried enough to drown a giant. When GW came out with malign sorcery there were declarations that khorne players should pack up and go home because we don't have wizards. When the points for letters and murderhost went up there was more wailing than at a banshee's choir recital and now this. 

I mean come on I don't think even KO players cry this much and they have much more reason to. 

[Roark]

On 12/23/2018 at 5:16 AM, Gotrek said:

When they nerfed sayl ya'll screamed that khorne was dead. When they fixed secrators y'all cried enough to drown a giant. When GW came out with malign sorcery there were declarations that khorne players should pack up and go home because we don't have wizards. When the points for letters and murderhost went up there was more wailing than at a banshee's choir recital and now this.

Leaving aside exaggerations and generalisations about the Khorne player base, I think it's just kinda annoying for people to play a mid tier army and receive a steady progression of (overall) nerfs. Sure other factions are in a worse state, but that's neither here nor there. When you're playing mid-tier and have a 50% faction win rate, further nerfs just kinda feel very unnecessary.

Khorne is almost exclusively melee, except for Priests in Gore Pilgrims.  I think it's great to be positive and develop solutions and "get over it", but when the premier melee unit in your mid-tier melee army is mitigated fairly significantly, it's hard not to be a LITTLE bit cynical, especially when the supposed solution is to buy 3-4 boxes of suddenly not-garbage Bloodcrushers (Yes, GW is a profit-making business etc etc).

I glean from comments all around the internet that the "Bloodletter Bomb combo" wasn't fun for a lot of people, but I wish it was rectified in a way that didn't leave our fearsome melee combat daemons overcosted and meh.

I have an even more petty gripe to raise - that the Daemonettes' Locus of Excruciation directly neuters the one special thing that the new Bloodletters do. It seems to me that Hero-supported Daemonettes would handily defeat equivalent Bloodletters in melee combat. That feels a bit wrong...

Has anyone playtested the boxed units yet? How's the balance?

I confess I haven't read the entire thread from start to finish yet (though certainly some), so apologies if any of this is a bit tone-deaf. Feel free to ignore if so.

[Mutton]

If we want to talk about how Slaanesh units neuter other Chaos models, can we also talk about how the Enrapturess single-handedly shelves the Lord of Change for any kind of competitive play? That's messed up.

[Carnith]

Only if you play against slaanesh, a rather unplayed army. She has to make sure she doesn’t get sniped if she’s in a GA:C army and in a pure slaanesh army she can always get resummoned. 

[Waiyuren]

4 hours ago, Mutton said:

If we want to talk about how Slaanesh units neuter other Chaos models, can we also talk about how the Enrapturess single-handedly shelves the Lord of Change for any kind of competitive play? That's messed up.

Kill her with some other doublecaster before casting with big bird? She only has 5 wounds, and every time you kill her your opponent will need to waste 6dp bringing her back (on their next turn) which means you are controlling their summoning, not them.✌

One thing I've noticed with her is that she doesn't actually seem suited to a Slaanesh army as we might currently see them. Slaanesh's only support hero (as in with an aura ability) was the masque until now, but even she mucked in with the troops so to speak.

My prediction is that people will try her out, then eventually drop her for something else. Unless someone figures out some brutal blue-deck style combo list with her, at which point she'll get the nerf bat. 😅

[Mutton]

I dunno, even just forcing enemy casters to reroll spells is strong. Combined with unbinding and that 24" aura, I think sniping her may be more difficult than it seems. But you may be right, time will tell. I think Slaanesh is going to end up being very competitive in the future. 

[Carnivore]

21 hours ago, Roark said:

[...]

Khorne is almost exclusively melee, except for Priests in Gore Pilgrims.  I think it's great to be positive and develop solutions and "get over it", but when the premier melee unit in your mid-tier melee army is mitigated fairly significantly, it's hard not to be a LITTLE bit cynical, especially when the supposed solution is to buy 3-4 boxes of suddenly not-garbage Bloodcrushers (Yes, GW is a profit-making business etc etc).

I glean from comments all around the internet that the "Bloodletter Bomb combo" wasn't fun for a lot of people, but I wish it was rectified in a way that didn't leave our fearsome melee combat daemons overcosted and meh.

I have an even more petty gripe to raise - that the Daemonettes' Locus of Excruciation directly neuters the one special thing that the new Bloodletters do. It seems to me that Hero-supported Daemonettes would handily defeat equivalent Bloodletters in melee combat. That feels a bit wrong...

Has anyone playtested the boxed units yet? How's the balance?

I confess I haven't read the entire thread from start to finish yet (though certainly some), so apologies if any of this is a bit tone-deaf. Feel free to ignore if so.

The Bloodletter Bomb wasn't fun for a lot of people, but to behonest, it wasn't fun for Khorne's enemy players.

They literally where the only big punsh BoK had left. But anyway, you asked what the balance is like.

I got the Box since release now and had a few games.
My first impression was, that the pont cost is absolutely average, wich is a good thing. Don't know when Karanak will go to 160 points, but until now he is worth 90 points, due to Warscroll Builder.

The first game ( me playing BoK ) was pretty ok, played the "First Blood" scenario from the core rules of AoS 2.0.
Slaanesh made massively more wounds than me, but I concidered it to me my mistakes, as I could have played better in tactics. Rolled the dice not optimal, as I made a 1 for the Bloodcrusher's charge ability.

Having forgotten the Battalion rules from the W&R box, it was kind of okeyish for me.  So I went on to the next games.

Same scenario, but this time with the battalion rules.
In this game I didn't have the feeling, that it only was due to my dice rolling and tactical gameplay.
I saw some issues:

Daemonettes for 100 points do 2 hits per model +1 for the leader. You need to reroll hits of 6 as their enemy. They bring back models, just like the Bloodletters. Hits of 6 make actually 2 hits, instead of one. And their weapons do have a 1 rend.
That's for 100 points.

Bloodletters for 120 points. Do make m wounds on unmodified hits of 6. Bringing models back with bravery of 1. That's basically what they do and they only have 1 hit per model +1 for the leader with a redn  of 1.

That's GW's 1st strike on them, if you ask me.

Yeah, the Bloodcrushers do make decend damage, if you do not roll a 1 on that charge ability, what I did 2 times in 2 games. AFter that, they pretty much where sitting ducks in melee. The damage output of them is petty medicore, but ok.

But really, what in the actual f**k's name is the deal with the seekers?!?
Move + Run + Charge in the same turn + charging with 2D6?!?

To be honest, if they catch up with you, you can not get away ever. Just don't try. They move 14", plus their butt hunter buffs.

The fineds are IMO a little cheap with 140 points. The damage they do to your units is absolutely devastating.

So, the battalion gives all battalion units, wicha re all there, +1 attack.
What does Karanak do? You can choose to bring up a Flesh hound unit once per game to the field.
Due to the fact, that you only have 1 group of Flesh hounds in the box, it's a little useless until you wait for the Flesh Hounds to be wiped.

But at that point, Karanak is already done.

The Box is good, due to the money model value, but it is kind of unbalanced due to the rule design again.

As a Khorne player, I really don't know what to do and to think yet again.

Hopes have been kind of failed again.

[Sleboda]

6 hours ago, Carnivore said:

Daemonettes for 100 points do 2 hits per model +1 for the leader. You need to reroll hits of 6 as their enemy. They bring back models, just like the Bloodletters. Hits of 6 make actually 2 hits, instead of one. And their weapons do have a 1 rend.
That's for 100 points.

Bloodletters for 120 points. Do make m wounds on unmodified hits of 6. Bringing models back with bravery of 1. That's basically what they do and they only have 1 hit per model +1 for the leader with a redn  of 1.

Straight comparisons of one unit in one army to another unit in another army has never been a good idea in 30 years of Warhammer, and it's still not a good idea today.

 

And as to dismissing Karanak's ability to bring in a new unit just because this set only comes with one unit, well, you're not gonna like this but the answer is to get more Flesh Hounds.

That's a common answer in this hobby. Get more models.

[Enoby]

35 minutes ago, Carnivore said:

The fineds are IMO a little cheap with 140 points. The damage they do to your units is absolutely devastating.

You'll be glad to know that they are 180 points with Wrath and Rapture

[Mutton]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

You'll be glad to know that they are 180 points with Wrath and Rapture

Ah thanks, I was wondering what the point costs were, hadn't seen them posted anywhere. 180 seems fair for now. Though it does make me wish my Ironguts were 160 : p

[Carnivore]

I was concidering to buy more Flesh hounds, so it is totally fine for me there

Does anyone know the point value for the Infernal Enrapturess?

Is Karanak at 160 points, really?

Where can I see the point cost of the models? Warscroll buolder seems not to be up to date.

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, Carnivore said:

Does anyone know the point value for the Infernal Enrapturess?

Is Karanak at 160 points, really?

Where can I see the point cost of the models? Warscroll buolder seems not to be up to date.

The Infernal Enrapturess is 120 points (but only 6 depravity points).

 

Karanak is 160 points. 

 

You can find the points in one of the Wrath and Rapture books. 

[Carnivore]

Got it, it's just on that tiny little side, where I obviously didn't see it.

Thanks!

[Killax]

On 12/22/2018 at 7:16 PM, Gotrek said:

It was a crutch holding us back. I seriously don't get why khorne players are so whiny. When they nerfed sayl ya'll screamed that khorne was dead. When they fixed secrators y'all cried enough to drown a giant. When GW came out with malign sorcery there were declarations that khorne players should pack up and go home because we don't have wizards. When the points for letters and murderhost went up there was more wailing than at a banshee's choir recital and now this. 

I mean come on I don't think even KO players cry this much and they have much more reason to. 

If you look at the several faction posts/ let's chats you will usually see that change for the worse is frowned upon when the army isn't part of the competitive top. The same is still going on with Destruction's massive nerfs and Death's previous odd return before their new Battletomes where printed. I sure hope Destruction gets back to being an interesting army with their new Night Goblins.

The fact is that Bloodletters never where a crutch holding us back for anything, it was what kept the army relevant for a competitive scene. You list all the nerfs that occured directly and indirectly to Bloodletters, but feel free to say that 3-4 nerfs isn't a little too much for one unit. As in the end they still need to be 30 strong, are on 32mm bases, cost 320 and still die like flies.

My question to you is "come on what"? Why do you think GW needs to rebalance this unit this many times?

My awnser to the latter is, GW doesn't care for Khorne for quite some while. This went in two directions:
1. A lot of Khorne's units are thematically incorrect and not in line with other Chaos God designs (the Mortal and Daemon units)
2. The Khorne Battletome, while cool, was rushed out and thus former issues remained (such as with the Bloodsecrator)

Feel free to blame the community for not liking this. But this is GW's product. This is also the third time Khorne get's another re-design for unclear reasons. In that same way I don't see Stormcasts being re-designed over and over again. If they wanted to have Khorne not mix with magic, a simple rule in the Allegiance would have done that. If they wanted to not have the Bloodsecrator stack, make the wording so that it doesn't. If they never intended Bloodletters to have 5+ MW's then why present it on other units?

My issue isn't even so much with the current Khorne state, my issue is much more with GW not doing things consistently and show the old habbit again of making newer armies on another power level. 

[Enoby]

For those who have tried the boxset, how balanced would you say it is (fighting  one another)? I want to play it with someone, but don't want it to become a stomp. 

[Captain Marius]

I like the tweaks to the khorne daemon rules. Bloodletters are now consistent with more recent units with rules which trigger on a 6 to hit, while a bloodcrusher charge is now something to be feared, which i hope skullcrushers will one day be updated to do! Karanak is my favourite though, now hes been buffed to be a proper death doggo!

[Gotrek]

13 hours ago, Killax said:

The fact is that Bloodletters never where a crutch holding us back for anything, it was what kept the army relevant for a competitive scene. You list all the nerfs that occured directly and indirectly to Bloodletters, but feel free to say that 3-4 nerfs isn't a little too much for one unit. As in the end they still need to be 30 strong, are on 32mm bases, cost 320 and still die like flies.

When the answer to nearly every question is "throw 30 blood letters with killing frenzy at it", it's a crutch. And with the depth of our roster, it's an unnecessary one.  You want to do the killing frenzy mortal wound spam still? Great, use skullreapers. Not only is their warscroll still a 6+ hit roll for mortals but it's also in addition to normal damage instead of a replacement for it. You get a smaller footprint, more wounds per point, a better save, and more attacks per model. From my point of view this could actually help bloodletters because with all the negatives to hit floating around their mortal wounds proc can't be pushed off the table. 

Furthermore, define "competitive top".  I just checked the stats and if you exclude the outliers (DoK, order draconis, and Phoenix temple) we are within 10% win rate of every other army. We place 7th in top 10 finishes, ahead of newer armies like nighthaunt, tzeentch, beasts of chaos and KO. We are tied for 5th in top 3 finishes with deepkin and ahead of everyone but legions, DoK, SCE, and sylvaneth. Not only that but the number 3 spot (SCE) only have 2 more top 3 finishes than we do. So please tell me how are we not competitive? Yeah, legions and daughters are crushing the scene but aside from those two the rankings are pretty tight.

 

13 hours ago, Killax said:

This is also the third time Khorne get's another re-design for unclear reasons. In that same way I don't see Stormcasts being re-designed over and over again

...what? Initially SCE were Infantry with flyer support, then they went monstrous cavalry with the dracothian guard, then they went fast cavalry with the palladors, then they went magic crazy with the sacrosanct. Seriously, what?

13 hours ago, Killax said:

If they wanted to not have the Bloodsecrator stack, make the wording so that it doesn't

They did. Twice. Once in the BoK book and again in the errata because their language wasn't right enough to keep people from torturing the words into letting it stack. If you're talking about the initial release, pre-GHB then that's because the design for the game wasn't geared with an eye towards even pretending balance was a thing (multiple nagash's were a thing in those days)

[Seraphage]

Guys this is an honest advice and not an offense anyhow : 

Learn your army better. Khorne is top tier right now. Strong as hell *you see what I did here * just needs lots of training in list building and synergy using. 

Literally it is one of the top tier. The reason you don't see him taking part at huge tournaments all the time at the moment at top 5, is because that the best generals in their majority, tend to swap  to "new" things all the time for change  ( only top tier ones of course ) and get to use new minis etc etc - >

Death all over after years and years of nothingness + DoK ultra powerful but also N E W !

Another advice is : if you wanna perform top tier, unfortunately you have to put out of your mind things like " I love this awesome miniature, it rocks and I am definitely using it. " Or let me rephrase properly as I am doing it myself : " I ll use this 1 miniature or unit that I love for sure but knowing that I handicalp myself ! *  

[Charles]

Hi, I’m just finishing building my new Karanak from Wrath and Rapture (Love these hounds) but I am not sure which base to use for him. The instructions say 75mm but the base side guide says 65mm by 35mm. Which should I use, is there an answer out there? 

I know last time the base guide was wrong for flesh hounds.

 

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, Charles said:

Hi, I’m just finishing building my new Karanak from Wrath and Rapture (Love these hounds) but I am not sure which base to use for him. The instructions say 75mm but the base side guide says 65mm by 35mm. Which should I use, is there an answer out there? 

I know last time the base guide was wrong for flesh hounds.

 

The base guide is for old Karanak I believe. New Karanak is on the 75mm base