Plague Flies and Starrake Jaaws rule

[KeX]

Hi

I play against my friend (stormcast) and we got situation about rules so i dont know if i'm right or not but this what happened.

I use Command Ability PLAGUE FLIES (pic down) on 20 marauders so if they are 20 they have -1 hit in cc. First question when i look that buf when i use command ability or in combat phase?

But realy disagrement we have in combat phase i charge his Big Dragon. I atack first and then he atack me but before he atack with atack he sad he using Cavernous Jaws (pic down) and kill 3 models and then he sad you dont have 20 models so i dont have -1 hit.

So can someone explains to me why if he is right but i stil think he is not

[schwabbele]

Dont think so, the jaws lets you choose specific models - which means for me - that after the jaws are done all unit conditions have to be reevaluated. Eg i could select a buff model within that unit , after drake eats it for lunch the buff doesn’t apply anymore because model is in drakes belly

[Isotop]

1 hour ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Pedant hat on, but that ability would confer +1 to hit against the model that used the weapon, not the opponent...

You are absolutely right. "this model" <-> "the model hit"

[King Taloren]

Ok going to try and answer this as clear as possible to cover all angles of the discussion and what is where an how and why.

First thing is first. To make a clear point that must be agreed on to have the clearest reasoning. Games Workshop uses the same terminology throughout the singular Battletomes. Trying to use a similar rule outside of the battletome doesn’t equal that the same principle is in effect.

 

Now for why plague of flies has a effect that only lasts for as long as there is 20 or more or it loses that ability immediately  after. I point to plaguebeaerers and their own extremely similar worded ability: Cloud of Flies 

If we argue that plauge of flies carries through to the next hero phase keeping the bonus from 20+ even after the unit goes below that number than plaugebearers can be argued to last the entire game regardless of how many are left in the unit. And pretty sure everyone can agree that is not the intent. And since they share the same wording with plague of flies about 20 or more it can then be inferred both abilities mean as long as there are 20 + you have this bonus.

Now that is out of the way let’s tlak about the combat phase. I put the rules as they are stated by how pile in and attack goes since this is one of the key elements of the discussion.

And the rules explicitly state that pile in and attacking are two separate actions. Cavernous Jaws activates after pile in. And note that it does not have a weapon profile so it is not an attack but an ability that interrupts the transition to the attacking step of the phase. The models that are killed here are removed before the actual attack sequence begins.

Now in the attack step it does go with the following: roll hit, roll wound, roll saves, determine damage. Allocating wounds is its own separate step with removing casualties. Up to the point before the removal of models if there was still more than 20  models during the attack phase, then yes the -1 to hit would be in effect for all of the Drake’s attacks. But he has a snack of them first before the actual attack sequence begins and removes that modifier. Which can be inferred that it only works while there are 20 or more on the field at the moment the effect is triggered and looking for the -1 in close combat.

 

[BaldoBeardo]

4 hours ago, Isotop said:

 Imagine a weapon with the following ability: "After hitting an enemy model with this weapon, you can add 1 to hit rolls against this model until the end of the combat phase".

Pedant hat on, but that ability would confer +1 to hit against the model that used the weapon, not the opponent...

[Isotop]

3 minutes ago, TheWolfLord said:

Considering how common it seems to be for players to query interactions around this I don’t think your statement is correct.

Ive seen dozens of queries asking if a unit can continue to make attacks when their opponents remove models from the from of the combat thus taking them out of reach.

Or playing unit buffs incorrectly because they stop using a buff from a dead model for the remaining unit.

In short, many people don’t know they shouldn’t or find it intuitive to remove models as damage is caused and that causes they issues with rules interactions.

You should never assume that just because you understand a rule that every one else does and there are far fewer instances I.e. zero where considering attacks as simultaneous is going to cause issues. 

 

I see and appreciate the point you are making: We can make the entrance into the game easier for new players by simplifying what can be simplified without altering the rules. I am pretty sure you realize that we are in fact altering the rules by telling people attacks are made simultaneously. But you add the fact that there are no abilities that could make a difference between the "hard" rules and your simplification (correct me if I am presenting your point in a wrong way). 

In my opinion people are confused (as you describe in the quoted post) because they are taught the simplification in the first place. As I perceive it, the term "attacks are made simultaneously" just found its way into our basic understanding of the game and its rules - which is, in my opinion, not a good thing. I´m convinced people can and will understand the "hard" rules if we stop forcing simplifications upon them.

[TheWolfLord]

40 minutes ago, Isotop said:

I´m aware of the order of operations here. Yet I think saying that attacks are made simultaneously is unnecessary and potentially misleading. Imagine a weapon with the following ability: "After hitting an enemy model with this weapon, you can add 1 to hit rolls against this model until the end of the combat phase". After hitting your first attack (rolling them one at a time) your remaining attacks would benefit from the +1 to-hit buff. By telling people attacks are made simultaneously you would make them believe this interaction would work the opposite way (not getting the +1 for any attacks made by the model attacking with the weapon). Now I don´t know if there is any ability which works "on hit" at all - but at least there could be one in the future. Bottom line is: I think there is no real need for the simplification you are promoting - in my view we can trust the players to be intelligent enough to grasp the concept of "attacks are not simultaneously, but damage from attacks is applied simultaneously after all attacks have taken place".

Considering how common it seems to be for players to query interactions around this I don’t think your statement is correct.

Ive seen dozens of queries asking if a unit can continue to make attacks when their opponents remove models from the from of the combat thus taking them out of reach.

Or playing unit buffs incorrectly because they stop using a buff from a dead model for the remaining unit.

In short, many people don’t know they shouldn’t or find it intuitive to remove models as damage is caused and that causes they issues with rules interactions.

You should never assume that just because you understand a rule that every one else does and there are far fewer instances I.e. zero where considering attacks as simultaneous is going to cause issues. 

 

[Isotop]

10 hours ago, TheWolfLord said:

The attack sequence is written based on 1 attack at a time but allocation of wounds are not done until all attack by a unit are resolved.

Therefore no casualties are removed until all attacks are complete so effectively the unit attacks simultaneously. This means that if a unit gets a bonus to save for having 20 models in its unit it will get that bonus against all attacks directed at them by a unit. Many people remove models as attacks are resolved but that’s incorrect.

“ALLOCATING WOUNDS
Once all of a unit’s attacks have been resolved, add up the damage that was inflicted. The player commanding the target unit must then allocate a number of wounds to the target unit equal to the damage that was inflicted.”

 

I´m aware of the order of operations here. Yet I think saying that attacks are made simultaneously is unnecessary and potentially misleading. Imagine a weapon with the following ability: "After hitting an enemy model with this weapon, you can add 1 to hit rolls against this model until the end of the combat phase". After hitting your first attack (rolling them one at a time) your remaining attacks would benefit from the +1 to-hit buff. By telling people attacks are made simultaneously you would make them believe this interaction would work the opposite way (not getting the +1 for any attacks made by the model attacking with the weapon). Now I don´t know if there is any ability which works "on hit" at all - but at least there could be one in the future. Bottom line is: I think there is no real need for the simplification you are promoting - in my view we can trust the players to be intelligent enough to grasp the concept of "attacks are not simultaneously, but damage from attacks is applied simultaneously after all attacks have taken place".

[TheWolfLord]

6 hours ago, Isotop said:

Where exactly do the rules state that attacks happen simultaniously? As I read them, attacks happen one after the other (with the added luxury of being allowed to roll the same weapons at the same target all together) - with the damage being added up after all attacks have taken place. Even if attacks happened simultaniously (again, please point me on it if it works this way), how would this have any bearing on the Stardrake´s Jaws? The only hint we have on the timing of the Jaws is the wording of the rule itself, which says: "[...] After this model makes a pile-in move [...]". I think we can all agree that the "After" has in fact the meaning of "Immediately after" - otherwise you could also pile-in, then make your attacks, then use the Jaws (as it still would be "after" piling-in). So, if the Jaws are used immediately after the pile-in, why shouldn´t the models (if u succeed with the Jaws) be removed before the actual attacks happen? In my opinion there is nothing in the rules telling us to remove the slain models together with the models killed as a result of the dragons "normal attacks". 

Next in line is KeX´s question about the timing of checking the conditions for Plague of Flies. Correct me if I´m wrong (no native English speaker here), but the wording of the Command Ability really does sound as if you would check the condition (the targeted unit being at least 20 models) the moment you use the ability. But I think the catch here is that GW generally uses the expression "if the unit has x..." synonymously with "as long as the unit has x...". Here is an example: Sylvaneth Dryad´s warscroll states the following: "[...] You can add 1 to the result of save rolls for this unit if it includes at least 12 models" (rule in this case being Impenetrable Thicket). In this case everyone silently agrees that the unit has to have at least 12 models in the moment save rolls are made - even though there is no exact statement about the condition regarding in which moment the units has to contain the minimum number of models. The same wording is used for a lot (I would say all but not 100% sure) of units getting boni for having a certain number of models - always bearing the additional implicit statement: "Check the number of models at the "relevant" moment - in case of Plague of Flies the moment the unit is actually attacked. 

I really hope this wasn´t too much of text - I´m new in this forum and honestly a little excited to take part in the rules discussions regarding Age of Sigmar. My goal is to present the rules as objectively as possible - which sometimes isn´t too easy taking into account GW´s rules writing.

The attack sequence is written based on 1 attack at a time but allocation of wounds are not done until all attack by a unit are resolved.

Therefore no casualties are removed until all attacks are complete so effectively the unit attacks simultaneously. This means that if a unit gets a bonus to save for having 20 models in its unit it will get that bonus against all attacks directed at them by a unit. Many people remove models as attacks are resolved but that’s incorrect.

“ALLOCATING WOUNDS
Once all of a unit’s attacks have been resolved, add up the damage that was inflicted. The player commanding the target unit must then allocate a number of wounds to the target unit equal to the damage that was inflicted.”

 

[Domowoj]

It sounds like you should just bring a unit of 40 marauders instead of 20. ?

[Isotop]

Where exactly do the rules state that attacks happen simultaniously? As I read them, attacks happen one after the other (with the added luxury of being allowed to roll the same weapons at the same target all together) - with the damage being added up after all attacks have taken place. Even if attacks happened simultaniously (again, please point me on it if it works this way), how would this have any bearing on the Stardrake´s Jaws? The only hint we have on the timing of the Jaws is the wording of the rule itself, which says: "[...] After this model makes a pile-in move [...]". I think we can all agree that the "After" has in fact the meaning of "Immediately after" - otherwise you could also pile-in, then make your attacks, then use the Jaws (as it still would be "after" piling-in). So, if the Jaws are used immediately after the pile-in, why shouldn´t the models (if u succeed with the Jaws) be removed before the actual attacks happen? In my opinion there is nothing in the rules telling us to remove the slain models together with the models killed as a result of the dragons "normal attacks". 

Next in line is KeX´s question about the timing of checking the conditions for Plague of Flies. Correct me if I´m wrong (no native English speaker here), but the wording of the Command Ability really does sound as if you would check the condition (the targeted unit being at least 20 models) the moment you use the ability. But I think the catch here is that GW generally uses the expression "if the unit has x..." synonymously with "as long as the unit has x...". Here is an example: Sylvaneth Dryad´s warscroll states the following: "[...] You can add 1 to the result of save rolls for this unit if it includes at least 12 models" (rule in this case being Impenetrable Thicket). In this case everyone silently agrees that the unit has to have at least 12 models in the moment save rolls are made - even though there is no exact statement about the condition regarding in which moment the units has to contain the minimum number of models. The same wording is used for a lot (I would say all but not 100% sure) of units getting boni for having a certain number of models - always bearing the additional implicit statement: "Check the number of models at the "relevant" moment - in case of Plague of Flies the moment the unit is actually attacked. 

I really hope this wasn´t too much of text - I´m new in this forum and honestly a little excited to take part in the rules discussions regarding Age of Sigmar. My goal is to present the rules as objectively as possible - which sometimes isn´t too easy taking into account GW´s rules writing.

[Gottkaiser]

3 hours ago, Somanlius said:

Like, if I was attacking the unit of Marauders with Protectors with Star Soul Maces and Glaives and resolved the Maces first and 2 Marauders died, the Glaives would still have a -1 to hit against the Marauders until their attack sequence ends. I don't see a difference, its still part of a unit's attack sequence. Now, if the same situation happened with a Stonehorn, but the Stonehorn charged and did mortal wounds in the charge phase rather than the combat phase, then yeah they would lose the -1 to hit.

Edit: But any unit attacking After the Stardrake would no longer have a -1 to hit, since their attack sequence commenced after the unit had less than 20 models. 

But there is a difference in the rules. The Stardrakes Jaws are an ability that takes place after the pile in but is not part of the attack sequence (as it isn't an attack and it slays the models outright with no rolls of the attack sequence).
Your example with the protectors isn't the same, as the rules state quite clearly on page 232 that you collect all damage caused by all of the unit's attacks and then, in the end, inflict the wounds on the unit. So yes, in that case all attacks would suffer the -1 as there hasn't been dealt any damage yet.

[TheWolfLord]

33 minutes ago, Somanlius said:

Actually, I think KeX is in the right here. Because all attacks happen simultaniously and Carnivourous Jaws happens after the pile in (still at the start of the combat phase), the Jaws, Weapon, and Tail would all happen at the same time so he sould retain the -1 to hit until the Drake is done attacking.  The Plague of Flies ability triggers in the combat phase and the Jaws trigger at the start of the Stardrake's attack sequence, all attacks happen simultaniously. 

Like, if I was attacking the unit of Marauders with Protectors with Star Soul Maces and Glaives and resolved the Maces first and 2 Marauders died, the Glaives would still have a -1 to hit against the Marauders until their attack sequence ends. I don't see a difference, its still part of a unit's attack sequence. Now, if the same situation happened with a Stonehorn, but the Stonehorn charged and did mortal wounds in the charge phase rather than the combat phase, then yeah they would lose the -1 to hit.

Edit: But any unit attacking After the Stardrake would no longer have a -1 to hit, since their attack sequence commenced after the unit had less than 20 models. 

Not true. You would pile in and use the Jaws before allocating any weapon attacks so they wouldn’t be considered simultaneous. 

[Somanlius]

Actually, I think KeX is in the right here. Because all attacks happen simultaniously and Carnivourous Jaws happens after the pile in (still at the start of the combat phase), the Jaws, Weapon, and Tail would all happen at the same time so he sould retain the -1 to hit until the Drake is done attacking.  The Plague of Flies ability triggers in the combat phase and the Jaws trigger at the start of the Stardrake's attack sequence, all attacks happen simultaniously. 

Like, if I was attacking the unit of Marauders with Protectors with Star Soul Maces and Glaives and resolved the Maces first and 2 Marauders died, the Glaives would still have a -1 to hit against the Marauders until their attack sequence ends. I don't see a difference, its still part of a unit's attack sequence. Now, if the same situation happened with a Stonehorn, but the Stonehorn charged and did mortal wounds in the charge phase rather than the combat phase, then yeah they would lose the -1 to hit.

Edit: But any unit attacking After the Stardrake would no longer have a -1 to hit, since their attack sequence commenced after the unit had less than 20 models. 

[KeX]

tnx 

[King Taloren]

As it states in the plauge of flies so long as there are 20 or more models you get the -1 in CC. But as soon as you drop below that count you lose that part. You still keep the -1 to shooting. but the -1 for CC is dependent on having the 20 still on the field. 

 

[KeX]

Ok and what about this as somoene told me this

"Yeah the conditions are set when the ability is used so it doesn’t matter what happens to your unit until the next hero phase you keep the extra -1"

[King Taloren]

Well there is some steps that you pile in and then attack. So that point between the pile in and the attack is where jaws activates. (Also as an aside you can pile in 0” so even if you don’t move it counts as piling in for the ability.) 

Though technically yes if he doesn’t pile in he cannot use jaws.

It happens immediately before attacking so it’s not an actual attack. So the -1 doesn’t get a chance to activate since there were not 20 models on the table at the time the actual attacks are rolled.

[KeX]

Hmm isnt Comabt phase pile in and attack so its activation model and all his attack are in same turn?

 

One more thing someone mention something about if he dont pile in he cant do that jaw is hat true?

 

And one more thing when do i look that command ability when i give some unit or in combat? As some told me that  conditions are set when the ability is used so it doesn’t matter what happens to your unit until the next hero phase you keep the extra -1

 

 

 

 

[King Taloren]

Yes. You do lose your -1 as soon as you go under 20 models because the Jaws is an ability not an attack. The caveat here is that if it hadn’t been for the Drake’s jaws he would have been a -1 for all of his attacks rolled in that combat.