ianob Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 OK, hear me out. I'm not going mad. This topic is very min-max'y so if you're not into that, look away now The maths looks like this: Avg hits per Sword attack: 1/3 (0.33) Avg hits per Spear attack: 1/4 (0.25) What this means is that a sword is worth 4/3 (1.33) spears in terms of average hits. What this means in practice, is that if over 25% of your attacks are only in range because of the extra 1" reach of a spear, spears are better and you'll average more hits. So put more simply, count up the number of models you have within 2" in the current combat; if more than a quarter of those are between 1" and 2", Spears win. If less than a quarter of them are within that range, Swords win. When you look at theoreticals it's easy to just say "Spear is better" based on this but as I'm standing in the shower this morning, rueing the idea of having 80 more spear skeletons to paint when I already own 40 sword skeletons, it occurred to me that beyond the maths, thinking back to my recent games, Sword skeletons would have been better in a *lot* of the fights and "real-world" positions they were forced to fight in - to the point where I'm thinking that there is no actual distinction between the two choices, both are valid, and in fact if you're taking multiple skeleton units then having access to both would be better. Here's some examples with very artistic diagrams Example 1 In the picture below you can see my Skeletons fighting on two fronts (real world example from two games at Blackout). This usually happens when you need your skeletons to engage multiple enemy units either to tie them up or to kill them. Skeletons often have to exert a big board presence and often end up fighting like this - especially when the enemies would be overkilled by all of the attacks from the unit targeting a single enemy (often the case with skellies especially if Dansed). As you can see, the unit is so stretched out that it is only fighting in two ranks anyway, meaning swords would be strictly better than shields. A couple of models from the centre string would get to attack with spears, maybe a few odd stragglers in a more real world situation too, but the overwhelming number of models are in sword range so swords win. Example 2 This one is a little bit more conceptual but bear with me; attacking around obstacles, attacking small units, etc. The skeletons have approached from the south of the picture, into a Sylvaneth Wildwood (trees are green) to attack 6 Kurnoth Hunters (brown, base size is off I know). The black skeletons are all within 1". The blue skeletons are all within 2". The Red Skeletons are out of both. Due to the way the terrain blocks, the need to string some models around behind trees to keep coherency, and so on, you actually end up with spears adding a lot less attacks than you'd expect. Spears and Swords are very close in efficiency here but thinking back to multiple recent games where I've had to fight like this (or around small houses, or fighting vs elite units that you cant completely surround, or dont roll a high enough charge to surround, etc) Spears actually come off worse than swords again. Of course in this situation if the skeletons had come from the north, it would be a different story and spears would win out. There are, of course, other advantages to spears; being able to stab stuff behind an enemy screening unit is a big one. I'm not advocating for a moment that everyone drop their Spears for Swords; but, I'm saying that Swords are a far better tool than people (me included) have given them credit for in the past. You may think "well, I dont know what my battlefield situation will be like so I'll use Spears" and you'd be correct if you're only running one unit of 40 skeletons. But, if you're running multiple, then correctly applying Swords and Spears to the right areas of the battlefield could certainly help you eke out extra damage potential. I'm going to run that unit of 40 Swords and I believe that it's a superior choice to a second unit of 40 Spears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Look forward to seeing how it plays out. I've always enjoyed running a couple of small unit of sword skeletons and find that they do perform pretty well when I get them into combat so can see your logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I've always felt the difference was not great enough to get worked up over, and that it was ginr to go with aesthetic preference for skittle weapons. Even so, if there was no preference, I've generally encouraged spears, but that's based on my personal experience, which ive only recently started to realize is greatly skewed by my continued use of rectangular block movement trays for speed and convenience of deployment and movement in casual play, only stepping off the trays when my units hit combat. As I run into more competitive opponents - particularly deep strikers and fast alpha rushers, I'm more and more finding that the necessities of practical screening, objective grabbing, area denial, or aura maintenance make blockish formations unworkable pretty much right from deployment, forcing me into wide and/or blobby shapes surrounding my key units where spears probably aren't actually getting enough more attacks than swords to be technically better. That said, I still think it's not by enough of a difference that gameplay impact should outweigh aesthetic preference. I generally find they either ridiculously overkill their targets or barely do anything at all, with relatively little middle ground. A handfull more or less hits doesn't seem like it would make that much difference in either direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marthen Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 So would a sword skeleton unit still be run in a block of 40? Or would you be able to downsize the unit a bit? This discussion is heartening as I now feel like I did not ****** up assembling my first 20 skeletons with swords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euphanism Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I built my first 30 skellies with swords because I liked the way they looked. Built my next 40 with spears, and I plan to go back and add in another 10 swords so I have two even 40 blocks. Its good to see that I didn't bork up the first 30 though with swords! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingwalnut Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Seems legit. I am expanding my 10 man block of Skellies despite starting Death to avoid "hordes". (I have odd perceptions sometimes...) Glad to know that the sword and board that just looks better to me still works fine. I felt it was a moot difference, but sometimes the way people swear by spears... Not competitive myself...sorta, but could to avoid shooting myself in the foot either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 34 minutes ago, Marthen said: So would a sword skeleton unit still be run in a block of 40? Or would you be able to downsize the unit a bit? This discussion is heartening as I now feel like I did not ****** up assembling my first 20 skeletons with swords. Still 40s. Always 40s. The only reason to be running less than 40 is if you're running Deathmarch and need to fill it, otherwise your 10/20 man units should be Chainrasps or Dire Wolves and you should never run 30 man units unless you desperately need to cut 40 points and are OK being super inefficient to do it. 8 minutes ago, flamingwalnut said: Seems legit. I am expanding my 10 man block of Skellies despite starting Death to avoid "hordes". (I have odd perceptions sometimes...) Glad to know that the sword and board that just looks better to me still works fine. I felt it was a moot difference, but sometimes the way people swear by spears... Not competitive myself...sorta, but could to avoid shooting myself in the foot either way. People swear by Spears for good reason; in most situations, on a normal board, against normal enemy armies, they are more likely (from experience) to have a better chance of being more effective. If you were only running one unit, I'd run Spears every time. 43 minutes ago, Sception said: I've always felt the difference was not great enough to get worked up over, and that it was ginr to go with aesthetic preference for skittle weapons. Even so, if there was no preference, I've generally encouraged spears, but that's based on my personal experience, which ive only recently started to realize is greatly skewed by my continued use of rectangular block movement trays for speed and convenience of deployment and movement in casual play, only stepping off the trays when my units hit combat. As I run into more competitive opponents - particularly deep strikers and fast alpha rushers, I'm more and more finding that the necessities of practical screening, objective grabbing, area denial, or aura maintenance make blockish formations unworkable pretty much right from deployment, forcing me into wide and/or blobby shapes surrounding my key units where spears probably aren't actually getting enough more attacks than swords to be technically better. That said, I still think it's not by enough of a difference that gameplay impact should outweigh aesthetic preference. I generally find they either ridiculously overkill their targets or barely do anything at all, with relatively little middle ground. A handfull more or less hits doesn't seem like it would make that much difference in either direction. Well yeah, but this is about minmaxing so it IS relevant in that regard. You're right that it's only a handful of attacks in either direction regardless, but handfuls add up and competitive inches matter. If they dont matter to a given person then yeh, this is definitely not relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnelian Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I took 40 sword skellies to Blackout and they did a lot of murdering. There effectiveness has gone up a bit with the new pile in rules cos it means they are way better at getting numbers into combat against a single big model than they used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanHammer-darren Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I’m using swords because ain’t no way in hell im painting more skellies for a few extra wounds haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I guess swords are a valid option, especially with a hero around. A lot of things can dish out -1 to hit, which leaves spears at an overperforming 6... 5 with the necro. That’s bad. normally, 12 attacks end up with 8 hits with swords and 6 with spears, 1/3 difference! who‘d mathed it... so as ianob stated, you‘ve got to get that 1/3 hit reduction out of 1/3 extra attacks to get value out of the spears (sorry lame and lazys, don’t wanna build skellis don’t count. Building skellis builds character). This of course depends on your opponent, scenario, terrain and skillz with positioning. It is easy to get one more into range, after having 3 in contact. But as this scales linear, the more skellis you gave fighting within 1“, the more you‘ll need to get within 2“ to level the „skill reduction“ 3 at 10 fighting and 6 at 20 in contact. No problem at an open field against a big opponent, but fighting on two sides or in the woods, suddenly there is no room to pile in (towards the nearest) an extra 6 models and suddenly the sword and board skellis generate more hits. In area denial formation (H8-Star) to counter deepstrike etc you might not be able or willing to shift your models...but maybe the reach?!? To finish writing non-sense... if swords or spears is your biggest problem, your ready to go! Just 4+ it in front of your opponent XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 I've been running sword'n'board for 20 years...not changing now! Setting that aside, you have to work hard for the spears to get enough extra models stuck in to overcome the swords' statistical advantage. It might not be a rare situation, but spears>swords is situational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 I like the aesthetic of swords more so that’s what made my choice. The hardest part of this hobby is that more often than not aesthetics aren’t always the strongest performers in the actual game part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 True words... but I wouldn’t be upset about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeymajq Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Glad to hear it. I run a unit of each myself and tbh I kinda prefer the swords ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 What about Grave Guard 2 handed weapons versus sword and board? Is there anyway to give them +1 to wound? Any buffs or spells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Guardian of Souls, but only for Nighthaunt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Honk said: Guardian of Souls, but only for Nighthaunt... So I guess there is no way to give Shield Grave Guard or either variant of skeletons 3’s to wound. It’s fixed at 4+ all day forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 8 hours ago, Ravinsild said: So I guess there is no way to give Shield Grave Guard or either variant of skeletons 3’s to wound. It’s fixed at 4+ all day forever. Correct afaik. The VLoZD’s command ability is statistically significantly better though, and we can stack buffs like nobody else (not that we can really afford to but we *could*) so that’s something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.