New DoK army - What to build, Where to go next?

[tchad78]

I just traded some Stormcast for a DoK army. The person I got them from has built 40 Witches and no Sisters. I see online that everyone seems to prefer Sisters. Also, suggestions on what to try for 2,000 and where to add to the army based on what I have please?

Morathi
2 fully magnetized cauldron/shrines
40 Witch Aelves
10 Blood Stalkers
10 Doomfire Warlocks
5 heartrenders
5 unbuilt heartrender/lifetaker

Was thinking of trying this:

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar

Leaders
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
- General
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)

Battleline
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
10 x Witch Aelves (100)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
10 x Witch Aelves (100)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives

Units
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80) (Proxy heartrender or buy 5 more to fill out the Battalion)
10 x Doomfire Warlocks (320)
- Lore of Shadows: None

Battalions
Cauldron Guard (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 102
 

I feel this is too low on heroes - suggestions?

 

Thanks

 

 

[Ragnar Alpaca]

I don’t know much about DoK but sisters look bad, even if they were better I would use witch elves.

[Richelieu]

People definitely do not prefer sisters.  Most successful lists are witch and blood sister heavy.

There really isn't a consensus on witches v sisters and knives v shields.  The debate has been ongoing since there tome launched in March.   I am personally a proponent of all witches with knives but if someone does well with a different configuration who am I to argue.

[Rekmeister]

I like sisters with bucklers and whips. All the loadouts have their strengths.

[Aspirant Snaeper]

I think any army with Witches and Sisters will be set. Dagger/Dagger Witches are great for the early assault, while Sisters with Bucklers make for a great tough second wave. 

Alternatively, if you're anticipating an alpha strike, put the Buckler Sisters out front to absorb the hit and then follow up with Witches.

[Overread]

Sisters of Slaughter and Witch Aelves are similar enough in that both essentially fill similar role as the other - fast close combat alpha strike units. Which is to say both want to run up fast and launch themselves into close combat first. Neither is tough nor a tarpit on their own (even with bucklers) so they are best when they make a charge. 

With their base stats the key differences are:

Witch Aelves can get an extra attack if they are within 8 inches of a DoK hero

Sisters of Slaughter can pile in attack in the combat phase even if they are within 3 inches of the enemy and can move 6 inches when piling in.  They also have 2 inches range on their whips rather than 1 inch that the blades have.

 

So at their most basic (without picking knives or bucklers - note one of these must be picked) the main difference is that Witch Aelves have an extra attack; whilst Sisters have more potential to get into attack range, especially if the area of terrain they are in is less open and thus you can't as easily wrap the unit around the enemy. 

 

Either unit gets an extra 1 inch attack if you take the knife upgrade; whilst if you give them the buckler they get a +5 save (base for both is +6) and deal 1 moral wound for every save of a 6 (after re-rolls but before adding any modifiers). Remember for this mortal wound you don't have to roll to hit nor to wound it purely activates off the save. 

 

Remembering that DoK get a 6+ save on all their faction models in a DoK army as default as well. 

Bucklers essentially gives you a bit more survivability and a random chance of a mortal wound; at  a cost of one extra regular knife attack.

 

 

Thus highlights how tricky they are because both units are very similar in their core function and both upgrades enhance, but neither is a "must have". This actually puts them in a rather nice position as in casual army planning you can go with what you want without a huge change of tactics. However in practice they are subtle enough differences to be worth considering - especially if you know your opponent and any details of the terrain (eg if your club always plays with super dense terrain you might well favour sisters over witches). 

Also because the Buckler attack is off a single save roll rather than two rolls its chance of happening isn't too bad in comparison, so even there its not totally bad and a +5 save makes a difference, esp when you get a +6 before that already. 

 

 

 

 

In the army lists that I've seen I've not seen any real bias for those picking up the army as new. I think there is some toward double knives on witches and whip and shield on sisters partly because those were how those models were built in the Fantasy era so there's a bit of model legacy going on in that regard. 

My personal feeling is to keep your options open when collecting/building. So I've started mine aiming toward 30 witches with bucklers and 30 with double knives. Sisters the same. It gives a nice solid core of choices that one can then pick and choose from and if one finds a favouring and wants to tip toward the hoard of aelves then a 3rd of either can be free choice. 

 

EDIT - I forgot to mention that both should have hag/slaughter queens following after them for support. As a result the Witches should be getting that +1 attack for being with hero range most of the time. Daughters are quite a powerful army that is reliant on synergy between units to get the best out of the army. It's for this reason that Cauldrons and queens should be fairly well represented on the table so that they can provide support to the core troops. Between spells, auras and chants there's a lot you can boost your units with and you want to make use of it. Getting not just the charge but a boosted charge with bonuses.

 

[Aspirant Snaeper]

I did neglect to go into detail on "tanky" sisters. Hagg Nar Buckler's near a Blood Throne General can become 4+/ 5++. Throw Witch Brew and maybe even Mystic Shield if you're in dire need, (nerf or no nerf) into the mix and you have a 30 girl unit that has more staying power than some Stormcast. 

I also like Sisters with Buckler's over Witches with Bucklers due to the Sister's 2" range, allowing potentially two whole rows of Sisters' to pile on effectively the same number of attacks one row of Dagger/Dagger Witch's can when they're near a Hag Queen. This means you don't need to commit your Hag Queen to chasing your Sisters' around and you still get roughly the same number of attacks, a good save and a chance at Mortals when your opponent hits you. Not to mention a great Pile in. 

That being said, I still like Dagger/Dagger Witches getting chased by a Hag. Witches don't have a drop off in offensive capability until they've taken serious casualties, since one row of dead Witches is replaced by another that hits just as hard as the last. Meanwhile if/when Sisters go down to one row, their offensive output is effectively cut in half... but that's mitigated by their improved staying power if you buff them correctly.

Thus why I plan to play Witches and Hag on offense and Sisters on Defense riding with the Slaughter Queen on Cauldron to mop up the rest. 

[tchad78]

3 minutes ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

I also like Sisters with Buckler's over Witches with Bucklers due to the Sister's 2" range, allowing potentially two whole rows of Sisters' to pile on effectively the same number of attacks one row of Dagger/Dagger Witch's can when they're near a Hag Queen.

Good points, don't forget that 25mm is less than 1" (0.984252), so if you are base to base to base 1" range attacks on 25's are in range 2 deep. 

[Overread]

Honestly looking at most tape measures that tiny difference hardly registers; I'd wager that most would consider it an inch

[tchad78]

1 minute ago, Overread said:

Honestly looking at most tape measures that tiny difference hardly registers; I'd wager that most would consider it an inch

It's very close but the math doesn't lie.  I don't need to measure to know that is less though so no need to measure if bases are touching.  We've always played that way, assuming GW did that on purpose and for balance reasons.  That seems to be the entire reason people were upset about Bloodletters officially going from 25mm to 32mm - it was a HUGE nerf to them, removing 1/2 of their attacks in many cases.

[Overread]

Personally I suspect its just that GW is the last place in the UK still using Imperial measurements instead of metric whilst all the bases and everything else is in metric (it is rather odd that when everything else is cm, GW still sticks to inches)

[tchad78]

3 minutes ago, Overread said:

Personally I suspect its just that GW is the last place in the UK still using Imperial measurements instead of metric whilst all the bases and everything else is in metric (it is rather odd that when everything else is cm, GW still sticks to inches)

Hmm, that is interesting.  As an American I trusted that all this Imperial vs standard was done on purpose.  20mm square is definitely 2 deep on the 1" weapons, so it just made sense that 25mm was decided on to maintain that square to round balance.   Again, maybe we're just overly nerdy but we've always done the 1" can go 2 deep due to math.  I wonder what the tournament scene does?  

[Overread]

I'd wager most round up so it would be considered 1 inch, especially considering that no other measuring in the game comes down to that level of fine measuring*. I doubt GW even thinks of it that way and probably chose 25mm because it was as close to an inch as they could get in metric from the base makers. 

It's just too much fine measuring compared to the rest of the measuring in the game. Plus when things changed from rank and file square to free moving round everything changed up so I doubt GW wanted to try and preserve the old balance (if they did they'd have been more brazen and gone for a 20mm base, however that would likely not work with most of the models in the range - or would leave them looking rather silly) 

 

 

*It's so tiny that unless the bases are PERFECTLY made and in perfect contact you'd be out of range. 

[Richelieu]

10 minutes ago, Overread said:

I'd wager most round up so it would be considered 1 inch, especially considering that no other measuring in the game comes down to that level of fine measuring*. I doubt GW even thinks of it that way and probably chose 25mm because it was as close to an inch as they could get in metric from the base makers. 

It's just too much fine measuring compared to the rest of the measuring in the game. Plus when things changed from rank and file square to free moving round everything changed up so I doubt GW wanted to try and preserve the old balance (if they did they'd have been more brazen and gone for a 20mm base, however that would likely not work with most of the models in the range - or would leave them looking rather silly) 

 

 

*It's so tiny that unless the bases are PERFECTLY made and in perfect contact you'd be out of range. 

99.99% of the community plays that the second row of 25mm bases can attack with 1" range.  You can't argue with @tchad78 (and everyone else's) logic.  If the bases are touching, they are less than an inch apart.  Period. End of story.

[Ragnar Alpaca]

To be fair most of the time units get placed in an offset way, so two ranks will get to attack even without them being perfectly lined up, so this argument is kind of pointless.

[tchad78]

2 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

99.99% of the community plays that the second row of 25mm bases can attack with 1" range.  You can't argue with @tchad78 (and everyone else's) logic.  If the bases are touching, they are less than an inch apart.  Period. End of story.

I wouldn't say arguing so much as just bouncing thoughts around.  I assumed it was the standard based on how the new basing "suggestions" affected Bloodletter players.  I sort of used that reaction as my point of truth.

[Overread]

That and I'm trapped thinking less than one inch rather than full one inch. Since even if they are exactly 1 inch away it is still in range. It's still a fiddly bit of measuring ;but the important thing is that sisters of slaughter still get twice this reach so in theory fight over 2other ranks! 

[Richelieu]

5 minutes ago, Overread said:

That and I'm trapped thinking less than one inch rather than full one inch. Since even if they are exactly 1 inch away it is still in range. It's still a fiddly bit of measuring ;but the important thing is that sisters of slaughter still get twice this reach so in theory fight over 2other ranks! 

Yes, 3 rows of sisters can fight with their 2" range.

[sorokyl]

something to consider is that for the almost exactly 1" to matter, we are assuming your ranks are in a perfect square, and they are perfectly square with the opponent ranks.  Any shifting in those 3 lines and it's going to be a good bit less than 1".  Hopefully your ranks aren't square anyway as that's wasted space.