2k DoK list Critique

[Gwendar]

Hey everyone. So, my girlfriend has been building up her DoK force over the past couple of months and I have been trying to build out a decently competitive list for her to use and this is what I've got. Any CC would be appreciated as I am pretty unfamiliar with all of the synergies between units and mostly just looking at everyone from an "on paper" point of view. I know the Warlocks should probably be in a unit of 10, but she really loves the Khinerai deepstriking too much to give up those in order to fit it in.

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Khailebron
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- General
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (330)
- Artefact: Thousand and One Dark Blessings 
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Hag Queen (60)
Hag Queen (60)
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
5 x Doomfire Warlocks (160)
- Lore of Shadows: Steed of Shadows

Total: 1990 / 2000

[Aspirant Snaeper]

All in all, it's a solid list. General consensus seems to be that the Hagg Nar temple is the way to go, but if you play against a lot of shooting then I understand Khailebron. 

Doomfires in units of 5 are still worthwhile, just as long as you consider them as either a distraction (against opponents who know what they are capable of) or as a support unit to your Witches and Heroes. That's my theory anyways.

[sorokyl]

15 minutes ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

Doomfires in units of 5 are still worthwhile, just as long as you consider them as either a distraction (against opponents who know what they are capable of) or as a support unit to your Witches and Heroes. That's my theory anyways.

2

Why 1x10 instead of 2x5 for doomfire? You get an extra spell/unbind with 2 units.   I am still in very early stages of building my army, so have never played with them, just wondeirng how they play such that 10 is better 

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

All in all, it's a solid list. General consensus seems to be that the Hagg Nar temple is the way to go, but if you play against a lot of shooting then I understand Khailebron. 

Doomfires in units of 5 are still worthwhile, just as long as you consider them as either a distraction (against opponents who know what they are capable of) or as a support unit to your Witches and Heroes. That's my theory anyways.

The local meta is sort of split, but she did intend to either go with hagg Narr or Khailebron depending on the match up (like against me and some of my heavy shooting lists, lol). I appreciate the feedback, I guess we'll just have to get her playing some games to get a feel for it all. 

2 hours ago, sorokyl said:

Why 1x10 instead of 2x5 for doomfire? You get an extra spell/unbind with 2 units.   I am still in very early stages of building my army, so have never played with them, just wondeirng how they play such that 10 is better 

With 10 they get +1 to casting and unbinding and their Doomfire spell does 6 mortal wounds instead of D6 or D3 making them much more dangerous early on before they get taken down a peg or two. 

[Aspirant Snaeper]

3 hours ago, sorokyl said:

Why 1x10 instead of 2x5 for doomfire? You get an extra spell/unbind with 2 units.   I am still in very early stages of building my army, so have never played with them, just wondeirng how they play such that 10 is better 

To add to what @Gwendar said. The Doomfire's personal spell is devastating early game. Combine that with their speed and they are impressively threatening to any wayward Hero. Alternatively you use them as a Mindrazor engine early game, avoid casualties for a turn, then obliterate something turn 2. 

After that they become a great support/distraction unit. They have decent shooting and combat profiles to lend support to a Battleline blob. 

However, 10 of them are expensive and you run the risk of becoming dependant on hoping that ability goes off. Additionally, while not being paper thin, they're close and will poof fast if they get focussed on. Lastly, while they are the best Jack of all Trades out there, they are still masters of none. There are better assault units in the army. This is not a shooting army and their shooting profile is not amazing if you ignore the rest of the unit. 

If you take 5, you save a lot of points and remove a lot of burden from your demands of them. It lets them do what they do best and simply support the rest of your army as best as possible. No heroics of them going off on their own on a do or die mission. No make or break rolls to Doomfire a Hero to death or you lose the game. 

Sit them back, maybe cast Mindrazor, shoot, charge, unbind, and doomfire to make every other units' job easier. Maybe throw them at the enemy to cause a panic so that five horses get vaporized to allow 30 Sisters of Slaughter to advance inhindered. Maybe race them across the board to grab a wayward objective or prevent your opponent filling a hole in your lines with something nasty. 

I love Doomfire's, but dont let them be the only answer or they might let you down. But this is only advice! Dont let me stop you and your girlfriend from having fun.

[Gwendar]

Honestly I think she would prefer to use them as a support style unit, so I really do appreciate the clarity in describing the real differences between how you look at a unit of 10 vs a unit of 5. They're still enough to do something, but not relying on them seems best due to their points investment, at least with certain playstyles.

Worse comes to worse and she end's up hating them, she may just use the 160 points to buff up her 2 units of Heartrenders to 2x10.

[sorokyl]

Thanks guys, I was reading the spell wrong and thought the damage was based on models in the target unit.  Totally makes sense now. 

 

[Gwendar]

@Aspirant Snaeper Another thing that came to mind: Is it not better to use the Cauldron as the General in order to get the benefit of the Temple? I just realized this.

Especially since it's the same command ability but it affects 1 less unit, however due to being able to use it more than once per turn if the CP is available, that would solve that issue assuming she banks some points.

Additonally, can prayers be used multiple times from 2+ units like with Pestilens prayers? EX: can 2 Hags having Catechism and are both able to be used in the same phase? Or do they all need to be different prayers (such as spells) and only used once per turn?

[Aspirant Snaeper]

6 hours ago, Gwendar said:

@Aspirant Snaeper Another thing that came to mind: Is it not better to use the Cauldron as the General in order to get the benefit of the Temple? I just realized this.

Especially since it's the same command ability but it affects 1 less unit, however due to being able to use it more than once per turn if the CP is available, that would solve that issue assuming she banks some points.

I'm going to infer that you're asking about the Hagg Nar Temple's "Devoted Disciples" Command Trait? Not really sure what you're talking about, though.

Quote

Additonally, can prayers be used multiple times from 2+ units like with Pestilens prayers? EX: can 2 Hags having Catechism and are both able to be used in the same phase? Or do they all need to be different prayers (such as spells) and only used once per turn?

Unlike Khorne and Pestilens, Daughters of Khaine can only attempt one Khainite Cult prayer once per army (every Hero Phase, mind). The Prayers listed on the unit's warscroll themselves can be attempted across multiple units multiple times (During a Hero Phase), because Priest units gain two prayers when they learn a Khainite Cult prayer. So a Hag Queen could attempt "Wrath of Khaine" a second time, should the first attempt be unsuccessful. 

[Gwendar]

9 hours ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

Snip

Yes, that's what I meant. Morathi being named cannot have a command trait, so I assumed the cauldron would be better. Especially since it's command trait is the same as morathis, just affecting one less unit per time. 

I did not know they gained two prayer uses once they have a Khainite prayer. I'll need to look through her battletome a bit more. 

[Aspirant Snaeper]

3 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Yes, that's what I meant. Morathi being named cannot have a command trait, so I assumed the cauldron would be better. Especially since it's command trait is the same as morathis, just affecting one less unit per time. 

I did not know they gained two prayer uses once they have a Khainite prayer. I'll need to look through her battletome a bit more. 

Ah yes, I completely misunderstood your question, then. There are a few parts to this, so I'll break them down!

Morathi's Command Ability (the one you're talking about, that's listed on her Warscroll) is a bit different from the Ability the Slaughter Queen units get (remember Hag Queen units do not get this!). 

1. Morathi's and the Slaughter Queen's abilities only work if they are your GF's General! 
2. Morathi's ability allows shooting units to shoot as if it was the shooting phase OR units in combat to pile in and attack as if it was the combat phase. 
3. Slaughter Queen units Command Ability only allow a single unit to pile in and attack as if it was the combat phase. It does not work for shooting units like Doomfire's or Heartrender's. 
4. However, in both the Khailebron and Hagg Nar temples, there are mandatory Command Traits that must be taken by the General's of armies from those Temples. These are potent Command Trait's, but as Morathi is a named character, she cannot take them if she is your General. 

So your Girlfriend should try out both options and see which one she likes better. With Morathi, she gets the option to either shoot twice or attack twice, but loses a potent buff to her units durability with Hagg Nar, or the ability to teleport your other units across the board with Khailebron. Alternatively, she gets only one unit attacking out of phase with no shooting option, and gets to use some awesome Command Trait's on her Slaughter Queen. On top of that, she can count on being able to use that command trait every turn as long as the unit is alive, unlike with Morathi, who loses it when she transforms. 

Encourage her to try both and see what she likes, but I am of the opinion to lean on agreeing with you that making her Slaughter Queen her General is the better option. 

 

[Gwendar]

About the best breakdown I could ask for. Thanks for that. I have definitely encouraged her to try a few things out, but I think she's more inclined to only use it on Witch Aelves either way which makes her lean away from morathi as general. If she wants two units hitting then she would just bank some points and use it more than once per turn on another unit. I think the trait benefits far outweigh an additional unit getting a second pile in/attack per CP spent. 

Thanks again for the help. Now just to get her to finish building/painting everything.