Who was to blame for the death of the world that was?

[NurglesFirstChosen]

25 minutes ago, xking said:

The only people I remember sigmar killing to wipe them out  in the old story was chaos worshipers.  If not for Sigmar, the old tribes of the empire would have been doomed. If not for Sigmar, the peoples of the mortal realms would have still been a bunch of savages being preyed on by monsters. It was Sigmar that raised the people up, brought them civilization and taught them how to defend  themselves, It was Sigmar and his pantheon that brought an age of prosperity, safety, art,  and glory to the mortal realms. 

Sigmar is no where near a chaos god in their evil. The chaos gods completely wipe out entire species and destroy worlds for their own enjoyment. 

There was at least 2 times when Sigmar waged unjustifiable wars I assure you.  Not to mention the manner in which men, women and children were butchered in the alliances efforts to rid the mainland of the barabarian tribes. 

You might say that although Sigmar saved the people of the empire from many threats, the very formation of the empire actually empowered the chaos gods (thinking mainly tzeentch and khorne). Also the blood thirsty manner in which the northern folk were driven from the main land and forced north would have created generations of hate. 

I must say, I was a bit extreme in saying Sigmar was of the same virtue as the chaos gods. But Sigmar definitely was not An entirely virtuous man. In fact, Sigmar himself admits to his enjoyment of the bloodshed for example. It’s always been Sigmars way or death, and that’s not changed. 

All this aside, I appreciate your opinion  ??

Anywayyyy, it appears my views on Sigmar have sent this thread off track. Anymore opinions on the thread topic? 

 

[NurglesFirstChosen]

I can’t remember the names of the 3 tribes he attacked. 

The first 2 unjustifiable wars were against the two tribes of men who refused to answer sigmars calls. 

There was also another tribe who Sigmar wiped from the old world. And finally, when Sigmar attacked the norsai who resided on the main land, he wiped them out entirely- the sick, women, and children included. No one was spared his wrath. Even Pendrag disagreed with him in both of these exploits. 

When you say good doesn’t mean nice - id question your wording by saying order doesn’t mean good. Seems to me that in the mortal realms, none are innocent. 

Heh heh. Why do you keep asking if I’ve read lore because my perspective differs from your own. Like I said before, there’s no need to personalise the debate ?? 

 

[Drofnum]

30 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

Heh heh. Why do you keep asking if I’ve read lore because my perspective differs from your own. Like I said before, there’s no need to personalise the debate ?? 

He does this pretty consistently all over the forums to everyone, dont feel too bad about it.

[Black Blade]

10 hours ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

@Black Blade I do stand corrected, Sigmar isn’t directly responsible. That being said, I can’t help but hold him or at least his representatives partially at fault ?? Maybe I’m just bitter about the treatment of Kastner. 

I think I’m sold on morathi or/and the old ones ?

I can relate, that's one of the things I really liked about the setting is the echo of real life corruption. The cult of Sigmar could be awesome or terrible just like the political elements of the empire too. I loved Archaons fluff, sold me on my first army which was WoC. Did you read in the last endtimes supplement where Teclis looks at him and saw the potential he could have been the Empires greatest hero? I thought that was telling about the potential he had and it was a matter of him being won by the light or the dark. 

 

Edit: I see you've had some issues with someone asking about your lore experience and meaning it in a negative way, I mentioned it above to hopefully connect our experiences not to question your legitimacy ?

[PlasticCraic]

The whole premise is incorrect.  We need to be asking "Who was to THANK for the birth of the Mortal Realms"?

The whole, glorious reality we have now blossomed from the husk of The World That Was, like a scruffy old caterpillar blooming into a magnificent butterfly.

Everyone is doing what they love on an epic scale.  Chaos Gods have skulls to harvsest, realities to bless with plagues, intrigue on an unimaingable scale and a whole lot of pleasure and pain.  Nagash has more souls than ever, Order has exponentially more Lebensraum to claim, and there is limitless Krumpin' to be had in wars that never end.

Without developing reality beyond its limitations, we would have never experienced this majesty.  Heaven can't be too perfect, otherwise it's actually Hell.  The scale, complexity, beauty and nature of the Mortal Realms makes it the greatest of all possible realities.

Chaos is to thank.  You're welcome.

[Kramer]

9 hours ago, xking said:

And like I said, "Good does not mean nice". The first 2  wars were justifiable in the context of situation of the old world tribes. if he had not forcefully brought them into the fold, The armies may have been under powered against enemies they face.  It could have meant doom  for all the tribes as a whole. And the fact he is a barabarian and thought like a barabarian would have.

 

And that's kind of the point right? Sigmar is written in such a way that it's still fun to 'side' with him while offering plenty of reasons of 'siding' against him. It's one of the things that GW has done great for the longest time. The main characters are 'slightly evil' good guys or very bad guys with ' a good side'. 

From Snarsnik and his relationship with his squig, and I think the shaman?, to the Dwarven Kings that doom their people with their pride. Reading the End Times you even get offered a chance of having sympathy for the Glottkin. It's a great way of keeping all factions fun to play/invest in and allows every faction to be both the protagonist and be the antagonist in stories. Hence people can read the same story and get the opposite take away.* 

In the same manner I think the old world was doomed from the first line that was written. It was set up to fail otherwise there is not enough sense of drama. A story of 'good' valiant fighting against overwhelming odds is very enticing. Still... it was the Skaven triumph/fault  

 

*like you saying the first two wars were justifiable. If you have to justify it there is an element in there taht needs to be defended so it can't be as clear cut as 'right vs wrong'.

[NurglesFirstChosen]

@PlasticCraic I agree! I love the endless possibilities of the mortal realms. Morathi is a perfect example of this. Although I think I’ll always prefer old world lore (cause it’s what I grew up with) I definitely prefer the miniatures of new factions being put out. It’s great I can have the best of both worlds!  

@Kramer @Black Blade I absolutely love the elements of duplicity in warhammer lore. How the warhammer world reflects real world issues and events is really clever. Upon reflection I think it’s what has pulled me in over the years (apart from completely bad ass miniatures). 

@Black Blade Yeah that was very cool! I especially loved the part when Sigmar recognises Belakors true identity.