hughwyeth Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 55 minutes ago, Euphanism said: Thank you for your insight. I've got a 2K coming up, and was debating running a Nagash list but I've only really competed with Nurgle so I wasn't sure how it would handle. Would it be possible to post your list here? For some reason the site you linked is blocked by silly work filters. It's worth listening to @ianob on the podcast, he goes through each game and it fleshes out the list and how to use it much more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 ?@ianob Firstly congrats on the placement. All hail our lord and saviour Nagash, etc...???? I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I've been struggling in games with my ghosts against armies that summon, such as LoN and lizards, as trying to overcome obstacles like killing 30 grave guard 3 times in one game (which I did in with a unit of 30 grims with buffs ??) is difficult. And I keep finding that running an army that does not have access to summoning myself, is basically like playing 500pt-1000pt under, so although you can gain additional kill points, it feels like an unbalanced game. I know that some match ups are always difficult, but what advice can you give to help against summoning, working on the assumption that you won't be able to shut their summoning down until turn 3 or later? Also do you think that in matched play games, that there should be a points cap on the total amount of summonable units? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted August 9, 2018 Author Share Posted August 9, 2018 14 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said: ?@ianob Firstly congrats on the placement. All hail our lord and saviour Nagash, etc...???? I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I've been struggling in games with my ghosts against armies that summon, such as LoN and lizards, as trying to overcome obstacles like killing 30 grave guard 3 times in one game (which I did in with a unit of 30 grims with buffs ??) is difficult. And I keep finding that running an army that does not have access to summoning myself, is basically like playing 500pt-1000pt under, so although you can gain additional kill points, it feels like an unbalanced game. I know that some match ups are always difficult, but what advice can you give to help against summoning, working on the assumption that you won't be able to shut their summoning down until turn 3 or later? Also do you think that in matched play games, that there should be a points cap on the total amount of summonable units? It really depends on your scenario and opponent. But in general, as you kill units, look to create a hole that lets you kill the general (Slann or LoN general) that stops the summoning happening. Whenever LoN lose a unit, if you're covering gravesites at least a bit they'll generally have to summon into a sub-optimal position and if they fail the charge, they're *still* out of the game for a turn. Use that turn to consolidate your position. Play the objectives. If you double turn someone before their unit comes back, they can be so far behind on VP that the unit doesn't matter. Also remember the CP cost of bringing units back means that they're not doing something else; the resummon has a cost, so push them on CP and force them to make hard decisions. Against Lizardmen, remember that their summoning is generally making weak units trying to objective camp; if they're making tougher units, there's a lot less of them. Again, play the objectives. Against Khorne or Nurgle, pay attention to how they summon. Don't pass up the opportunity to give them less blood tithe or corruption. Know how they work and play around it. Every point counts. Basically, always be gaining ground, exerting board control, and taking VPs. If you're killing units and they're only staying in the game by summoning, you're still winning, and summoning units into crappy positions can often mean they just dont do enough early enough. If someone is summoning stuff, restrict where they can do it. And remember that summoning is not without cost. Those CP or that Slann cost them points, so don't let the psychology of "my opponent has more stuff than me" get to you; focus on the game and focus on the objectives, focus on dealing with the summoning rather than getting frustrated by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, ianob said: Whenever LoN lose a unit, if you're covering gravesites at least a bit they'll generally have to summon into a sub-optimal position and if they fail the charge, they're *still* out of the game for a turn. Use that turn to consolidate your position. Play the objectives. If you double turn someone before their unit comes back, they can be so far behind on VP that the unit doesn't matter. Also remember the CP cost of bringing units back means that they're not doing something else; the resummon has a cost, so push them on CP and force them to make hard decisions. In the game against LoN, they went under on points by 100pts to give themselves extra CP for summoning, so that initial advantage helped me a bit. Only issue was their general was camped at the back on a gravesite, and my 30 grims wiped out the 30 grave guard who re-spawned as bubble wrap for the general, twice!! I was unlucky on all of the priority rolls, so I never even got to reach the general that game ?. Thanks for the help. I'll see if I can tweak some things in the list to optimise objective grabbing. The main issue I have is against a friend who plays lizards and the bloody swooping rippers he always uses, re-rolling everything is pretty much wiping out a unit in a turn, and when they die and I think it's all going to be plain sailing, he just summons them back ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanHammer-darren Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 13 minutes ago, ianob said: It really depends on your scenario and opponent. But in general, as you kill units, look to create a hole that lets you kill the general (Slann or LoN general) that stops the summoning happening. Whenever LoN lose a unit, if you're covering gravesites at least a bit they'll generally have to summon into a sub-optimal position and if they fail the charge, they're *still* out of the game for a turn. Use that turn to consolidate your position. Play the objectives. If you double turn someone before their unit comes back, they can be so far behind on VP that the unit doesn't matter. Also remember the CP cost of bringing units back means that they're not doing something else; the resummon has a cost, so push them on CP and force them to make hard decisions. Against Lizardmen, remember that their summoning is generally making weak units trying to objective camp; if they're making tougher units, there's a lot less of them. Again, play the objectives. Against Khorne or Nurgle, pay attention to how they summon. Don't pass up the opportunity to give them less blood tithe or corruption. Know how they work and play around it. Every point counts. Basically, always be gaining ground, exerting board control, and taking VPs. If you're killing units and they're only staying in the game by summoning, you're still winning, and summoning units into crappy positions can often mean they just dont do enough early enough. If someone is summoning stuff, restrict where they can do it. And remember that summoning is not without cost. Those CP or that Slann cost them points, so don't let the psychology of "my opponent has more stuff than me" get to you; focus on the game and focus on the objectives, focus on dealing with the summoning rather than getting frustrated by it. Hey can you post your podcast again? It’s not on overcast. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted August 9, 2018 Author Share Posted August 9, 2018 38 minutes ago, CanHammer-darren said: Hey can you post your podcast again? It’s not on overcast. Thanks! Sure! You can find them all here: http://podcast.justplaygames.uk/ (also in my signature but apparently sigs dont show on mobile!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolwut Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Grimghast Reapers are not a battle line for Legion of Nagash?? Oh sorry I see it - 2x units of 5 dire wolves. You have 3. Nevermind. This is similar to what I run. Except you've got Grimghast Reapers. They're superior to Grave Guard but aren't a battle line. Nagash Arkhan 40x Skeletons 30x Grave Guard /w Great Wight Blades 5x Dire Wolf Spellportal Cogs I like the cogs. +2 inches of movement and charge really help skeletons of any kind. Also with a horn that means an 8" minimum charge. Very sexy. Arkhan being able to boost the range makes dropping aoes out of a spellportal rather nice. Also, you can dust an unexpecting hero. Another variation of this list has me running a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon as my General without Nagash, so i can have the Nagishazzar relic, as well as more points for extra chaff, and a Wight King. The name of the game is attrition and 2 extra heroes means more targeted deathly invocation. And, being able to pop off Grave Guard with 4 attacks a piece is rather solid against armor. I have had similar experiences in that people don't particularly enjoy playing against my list. To be fair, I had this in 1.0 before we had the extra command point revive, but I can understand how it's frustrating. All that said, I don't think it's really fair to characterize this list as "unfun" to play against in the context of Sigmar. I would consider Tzeentch and any strong shooting list to be less fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 So many times people say unfun when it is challenging. So many people don't want chalenging games. Nagash list are not OP in the actual game. Top tier 1 or 2 maybe but if you don't have the tools or the skills to deal with him, he can be really challenging (or near to unfun). But if you got a solid list, I think it is a balanced game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted August 9, 2018 Author Share Posted August 9, 2018 @lolwut Cogs+skeletons doesn’t work unfortunately. Read the wording on the hornblower again - it’s sets our minimum to 6, it doesn’t make you move 6. First thing I thought of when I read Cogs but alas The Arkhan list is quite common, the issue with it is that it has even less board presence - Nagash can’t afford another big monster. If you pull the right missions all day you might get away with it, but more than likely you will run into an unwinnable scenario because you don’t have enough bodies. Especially since a bunch of your bodies are grave guard (slow). Thats the key to good Nagash lists; once you have the big fella in your list, resist the temptation to fill up on anything but bodies. Also no Necromancer is a crime, Vanhels is by a large margin the best spell in Age of Sigmar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 May I stack vanhels on a unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephisto Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 @ianob I listened to your podcast earlier today and I must say it was a pretty quality rundown. Nagash on Ulgu specifically seems like sort of a nightmare for opponents. Bonus points for your quip early on about skeletons. I joke with my friends that there are very few problems I wouldn't just throw 40 skeletons at. I am going to roll 140 attacks and bell curve you to Death. I'm going to make you roll those saves and you can't roll well all the time. I liked your Lantern Secret Technology too. Did you have trouble getting the necro to be within 6" to really utilize it? Did its spell effect thing ever come up? You may have mentioned but there was a lot of content to absorb in your podcast and I listened while at work so I may have missed that. A little beside the primary point of your post here, but I actually found Ritchie to be especially amusing this one. The friend that actually got me into WHFB back in the 90s FINALLY got into AOS after much pressure from me and my group. He's on sylvaneth so I had an oddly vested interest. Ritchie's walkthrough on his rounds was educational for me even. I went to listen about Death and BLACKOUT and I came away feeling like I know the Sylvaneth match-up better just from Ritchie recounting his mistakes and successes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted August 10, 2018 Author Share Posted August 10, 2018 People just do not get how deadly Skeletons are. James has been trying to convince me into Chainrasps instead for a while but it just isn’t happening - for all of their advantages, Chainrasps don’t have a 2” reach and have 50% less attacks per model the overwhelming majority of the time. That’s huge. I’m really close to pulling the trigger on getting 80 more for Nagash nerf proofing (can you tell that this is at the forefront of my mind? Ha) The Lantern was excellent in the first round vs Nurgle, by a rough count I think he missed like 25-30% of his wounds by 1. After that we mostly played very spread out missions though (so elongated screens) and weirdly I didn’t face any alpha lists so it didn’t really come into play. It was still the right choice though. Oh, no rerolls on casters either. I’m very conservative with my necros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Can Vanhels be stacked on a same unit....lets say of skeletons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted August 10, 2018 Author Share Posted August 10, 2018 34 minutes ago, GeneralZero said: Can Vanhels be stacked on a same unit....lets say of skeletons? Not in matched play, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donut Assassin Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 First time listening to your podcast, listed to two episodes yesterday. Was it you talking about building Nighthaunts? I have to decide what I should buy today as it’s the last day of a sale. Which two battalions would make up your list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Is there some write up or blog page or something written about those podcast for deaf people like miself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianob Posted August 10, 2018 Author Share Posted August 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, GeneralZero said: Is there some write up or blog page or something written about those podcast for deaf people like miself? There is not, unfortunately It's our intention to eventually have article content to go with the podcast but for now it's only audio as we're constrained by time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolwut Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 I suppose so. I don't play competitively in tournaments really. I prefer narrative. So, for me, Grave Guard work very well with the overall theme of my list. Grimghast are superior though. Kind of unfortunate that they are indeed so much stronger than a pre-existing choice. That said, Nagash for me is more of a 2500 point game unit than 2000. 800 points is so steep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephisto Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 I'm hoping they reduce grave guard by a full on 60 points in GHB2019. As it stands it's not a choice between them and Grimghasts. Grimghasts are so clearly better. If they had the same cost then it would be an actual choice, the classic decision between offense and defense (+mobility). Editor's note: I doubt GW will do this but I can hope. Aesthetically and thematically I love Grave Guard. Mine even have neat conversions to be rocking Nodachi with a sprinkle of samurai reed armor. Like you can buy a unit of Grimghasts and Five Dogs (or a spell portal) for the cost of 30 Grave Guard. It's so far beyond even comparable I can't believe these things are available in the same army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 22 hours ago, lolwut said: That said, Nagash for me is more of a 2500 point game unit than 2000. 800 points is so steep. He worked at 1500... ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke1705 Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 Nagash definitely takes finesse and a good supporting cast at 2000. 1500 is pretty tough to play him at IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 Nagash is always tricky to play, you have invested 800 points in one model. That’s 40% of your army, with a big bullseye attached. How to claim objectives, how to deal significant damage... while keeping Nagash save?! but he really is fun and not a crippled shadow of himself like in ghb17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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