Terrain usage and placement at tournaments

[Sleboda]

5 hours ago, Mephisto said:

Players can easily levy the particularly nebulous rules in AOS against you and have convenient scapegoats of "the hobby" or "being a nice guy" as fall backs. I'm not saying people that hobby or are nice do this. I'm saying, you have no way of distinguishing "oh, I didn't know" nice guy from cheater who acts nice and claims they didn't know. The onus of enforcement is too much on the player in AOS and too little on the rules of the game and this causes a lack of parity in enforcement. That lack of parity is at its height concerning things like Terrain. 

Give this man a doughnut.

[Sleboda]

5 hours ago, ClockworkGeo91 said:

I’m as baffled by this whole discussion as well. I’m not sure why people can’t just talk to their opponent and agree on the game board, without needing systems and rules in place that strip back any social interaction and pre game discussions

As with many things in life, when you are one way, it can be difficult to see why everyone else can't just be the same way. Friendships and marriages end over this issue.

The phrase "not everyone is you" is something I've had to say to friends many times over the years.

Why can't people just have an friendly chat like I do? Why can't everyone just conduct a straightforward social conversation like I do? Why can't all the others act in the same way I do?

Because not everyone is me.

If we do a thing regularly, to where it is second nature, we often have a hard time recognizing that it's still a skill. Why can't everyone just paint great or memorize all the rules? After all, those are part of this hobby too, just as socializing at least on some level is, but we're not all equally equipped at everything, and whether we all realize it it not, for many people all around the world, simple social interaction is exceedingly difficult! Add in stronger personalities, celebrity status, charm, etc. and it really should not be hard to see that many gamers just don't have the confidence to assert themselves.

On top of all that, some folks are just plain submissive. People have roles in societies. It's not limited to gaming. There are entire libraries filled with the results of studies of different personalities. How is it so difficult to understand that not every personality is as equipped to say "no" as we would like them to be?

The rules of a tournament (and terrain falls into that) should not be up to dominant personalities to dictate to those who are more naturally submissive (for whatever reason).

 

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, LLV said:

 

1. BJ questioned what the Brass Rune did and told the TO it didn't work that way - despite the fact it's always been played like that and the khorne player has been using their army for a VERY long time.  I guess the Lead on AoS knows the correct rules though - pity theyre not in an FAQ yet though....

2. BJ refused to let the khore player get extra attacks on his Blood letters due to the khorne player not indicating correctly what a Bloodsecrator could do. "you didnt tell me what the bloodsecrator does".

Holy heck! Really? Those are both total d#@k moves. Wow.

I mean, as in, I would rather concede the game right then and there than play against that kind of attitude.

[amysrevenge]

I don't think we should get carried away here - we are dealing with a couple "I heard"s and "alleged"s.  Less than one side of the story, a half a side of the story at best.

I have a general unease with/distaste for the notion of "with your opponent's permission", and that's the crux of what we're discussing here (I think @Sleboda and I are entirely on the same page in that regard).  No sense going too far past that - definitely not in this thread, and in general not until or unless there's more information available.

[Rachmani]

I don‘t have any anecdotes to share on AoS & „bring your own terrain“, but back in the day, when WHFB was still a thing we tried that at my local club and it was ok good even, until it wasn‘t because some guy brought favourable terrain for is army. Now, if one guy does it, you can be sure others will follow, so we said enough is enough and altered our rules. Basically, what we did was, we were very clear and upfront about what terrain was going to be on our tables and what the general measurements of said terrain were. So from then on, we let people bring their own terrain, if they saw fit - but we limited it to what we deemed fair restrictions. 

And to this day I think this is a good balance between encouraging hobby (which was always important to us) and some basic fairness. 
Because if I were the TO, I‘d rather deal with the possibility of social pressure or some kind of injustice beforehand, not afterwards. The former is pretty easy, the latter almost always ends in discussion. 
It‘s the same way we dealt with intentional slow-players. Either by giving people a rather long time for their games or - for the more hardcore tournaments by using some sort of chess-clock. The latter doesn’t make the most fun games, though.  It‘s actually dealt best by having enough staff around to keep an eye on players - and to be very clear, again upfront - about slow-play.

[PlasticCraic]

4 hours ago, LLV said:

1. BJ questioned what the Brass Rune did and told the TO it didn't work that way - despite the fact it's always been played like that and the khorne player has been using their army for a VERY long time.  I guess the Lead on AoS knows the correct rules though - pity theyre not in an FAQ yet though....

Can I ask what was the alleged rules debate on Brazen Rune?  

I've wondered myself whether you still need LOS and to be within unbind range...so you follow the normal rules for unbinding, except that it automatically succeeds?

Or can you just say "You over there in the far corner, invisible in the nook of a Numinous Occulum, I'm unbinding you"?

Sorry if this is side tracking from the main debate, it's just something I'd wondered about before.

[Mephisto]

1 minute ago, amysrevenge said:

I don't think we should get carried away here - we are dealing with a couple "I heard"s and "alleged"s.  Less than one side of the story, a half a side of the story at best.

I have a general unease with/distaste for the notion of "with your opponent's permission", and that's the crux of what we're discussion here (I think @Sleboda and I are entirely on the same page in that regard).  No sense going too far past that - definitely not in this thread, and in general not until or unless there's more information available.

Yeah, I'm trying to stay in that same lane myself. There's some "juicy" hearsay and gossip but I'm not too concerned with that. That's why I haven't engaged in other threads. This is the one about terrain as it pertains to tournaments and I think we've stumbled on an important aspect of that here with "with your opponent's permission" as you frame it, @amysrevenge, and the notion of how difficult it can be to say no as others have weighed in on (one way or another). 
 

20 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

If we do a thing regularly, to where it is second nature, we often have a hard time recognizing that it's still a skill. Why can't everyone just paint great or memorize all the rules? After all, those are part of this hobby too, just as socializing at least on some level is, but we're not all equally equipped at everything, and whether we all realize it it not, for many people all around the world, simple social interaction is exceedingly difficult! Add in stronger personalities, celebrity status, charm, etc. and it really should not be hard to see that many gamers just don't have the confidence to assert themselves.

Well said. I think there are some pretty solid points across this entire post here, @Sleboda, but one I really liked is that you mention gaming as a skill. Heck, I'd posit that going to a tournament has a subset of skills that need to develop.

I've played competitive things an awful lot in nearly 3 decades as a gamer. Each tournament scene I've gotten into has had odd curves you don't anticipate but with each tournament under your belt and each new city you go to, you figure things out. Innocuous things like shortcuts for transporting your army from one table to another. To minutia like which TO (or store hosting which national event) uses what app for reporting results. Does this one use soft scores? Do they go to Kill Points for tiebreakers? Heck, the tournament packs vary widely between TOs and can be their own learning curve. Some stuff many of us do it so naturally we take it for granted.

I'd even bet you've played someone that seemed really cool outwardly but on the inside were freaking out or nervous.  Maybe you are (or were) that guy or gal. Consummate professional on the outside, freaking out on the inside. Hoping you don't knock over terrain or break some stranger's model when your weapons get tangled with their's during pile-in. If your opponent pushed some sweet looking terrain in front of you, you might just agree to go back to concentrating on not ****** up and embarrassing yourself. It would be awfully nice if the TOs just handled that stuff. Left guess work and gray areas out. Leveled the playing field as much as possible.

The average player, even average tournament player spends 90% of their time with this game NOT at a tournament. On one hand I really think that's why the community is as cool as it is. We can spend each day painting, chatting on the forums, reading battletomes and tournament reports, and coming up with cheeky combos and memorizing rules minutia. In a practical sense, we get maybe one precious day a week to play. (Disclaimer, some of you are more fortunate than me and can literally live at the LGS and play daily; I envy you). We spend even less time at actual tournaments - maybe a monthly LGS thing or local convention tournament. Blackout, Adepticon, NOVA, and so on, only come around so often a year though. We develop many skills in that 90% that help us at tournaments but there are some things you just can't practice. Suddenly being face-to-face with a celebrity of the game or a WAAC** when you're used to playing against your best friends... that's intimidating. That's something you can't practice for even if you're awesome at the game. That's where I think a strong TO and good rules come in. 

**Disclaimer: Not part of my main point but worth noting. I think most people that play on a local level or are more hobby first have almost invented a boogeyman for themselves. I'm a competitive player but even I was totally afraid of running into a "That Guy" or a WAAC at a tournament. Then I found out, yeah, there's competitive people at tournaments, but the overwhelming majority are really cool. There's a myth of the tournament player but most just love the game and want as many and as often an excuse to play it as possible. It's not just a tournament. It's an event. To anyone that's intimidated by these crazy polar situations we debate on the internet, I assure you the reality of these things aren't ever really as bad. The biggest That Guy you will probably ever meet is actually at your LGS or one around the area (you know, the LGS you don't go to). Those of us that feel the need to travel to a big tournament out of our state to play it are there because we love the game, not just because we want to win at all costs.

[Gaz Taylor]

15 hours ago, LLV said:

Well maybe not as the following things then apparently happened in the game where the terrain wasnt used (and please if the below is misrepresented I'd love to hear from BJs opponent that game to contradict this):

1. BJ questioned what the Brass Rune did and told the TO it didn't work that way - despite the fact it's always been played like that and the khorne player has been using their army for a VERY long time.  I guess the Lead on AoS knows the correct rules though - pity theyre not in an FAQ yet though....

2. BJ refused to let the khore player get extra attacks on his Blood letters due to the khorne player not indicating correctly what a Bloodsecrator could do. "you didnt tell me what the bloodsecrator does".

 So it seems saying no to the terrain had just as much of an impact as the terrain itself.

Firstly I do need to put my Mod Hat On for this bit...

+++ Mod Hat On +++

Very simple. Do not ever accuse or imply somebody has cheated without being there to witness the game or having any facts about it. TGA is not about that and it doesn’t matter if the person is a first time player or part of the Design Studio. I know you have said that this is “appranently” what happened or you may have misinterpreted it, but you have put this up to stir the pot. Do not do this again.

+++ Mod Hat Off +++

Second bit now....

Ive known Ben J from the UK tournament scene for a few years (before he worked at GW and currently). I’m not a close friend or anything like that but I’ve played him a few times and spoken with him a few times and I’ll say it again - he is Mr Warhammer / Age of Sigmar. All the stuff you wanted improving or tweaking, he did that. All the forum comments and Facebook posts complaining about stuff which then get fixed or improved upon; he reads those and takes on the feedback. He has loads of amazingly painted armies (and has done for years, his Orcs and Goblins were ace), does actual hobby stuff like narrative play, painting and other stuff. He is a nice guy to speak to in person and has been winning events for years. To accuse him of abusing his position or anything of the ilk is wrong in my eyes.

Now I’m expecting there to be no more discussion about who did what and for you to continue the original discussion about bringing own terrain to events (which is pretty much done and dusted as in UK it’s fine and other places seem not to like it)

[Screwface]

13 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Firstly I do need to put my Mod Hat On for this bit...

+++ Mod Hat On +++

Very simple. Do not ever accuse or imply somebody has cheated without being there to witness the game or having any facts about it. TGA is not about that and it doesn’t matter if the person is a first time player or part of the Design Studio. I know you have said that this is “appranently” what happened or you may have misinterpreted it, but you have put this up to stir the pot. Do not do this again.

+++ Mod Hat Off +++

Second bit now....

Ive known Ben J from the UK tournament scene for a few years (before he worked at GW and currently). I’m not a close friend or anything like that but I’ve played him a few times and spoken with him a few times and I’ll say it again - he is Mr Warhammer / Age of Sigmar. All the stuff you wanted improving or tweaking, he did that. All the forum comments and Facebook posts complaining about stuff which then get fixed or improved upon; he reads those and takes on the feedback. He has loads of amazingly painted armies (and has done for years, his Orcs and Goblins were ace), does actual hobby stuff like narrative play, painting and other stuff. He is a nice guy to speak to in person and has been winning events for years. To accuse him of abusing his position or anything of the ilk is wrong in my eyes.

Now I’m expecting there to be no more discussion about who did what and for you to continue the original discussion about bringing own terrain to events (which is pretty much done and dusted as in UK it’s fine and other places seem not to like it)

But if we can get someone who was there to confirm the above re the brass rune and the bloodletters we're good to go, right?

[Chris Tomlin]

15 hours ago, LLV said:

1. BJ questioned what the Brass Rune did and told the TO it didn't work that way - despite the fact it's always been played like that and the khorne player has been using their army for a VERY long time.  I guess the Lead on AoS knows the correct rules though - pity theyre not in an FAQ yet though...

Ben didn't tell me anything. I looked over all the evidence when he and his opponent queried how it worked. As I said at the table, "it's always been played like that" is most definitely not a good argument in my mind, especially now when we are playing a different edition of the game! There was nothing that I could see for myself to indicate this would be a table wide effect, especially as the same ability within the Blood Tithe table does stipulate that it is (it would need to state something with regards to range as there is no focal point for the unbind, unlike the Rune, which is an artefact on a specific hero).

For me this was an easy ruling, like every other one I made across the weekend - I read the words and they gave me the answers. Simple. I'm not really interested in pre-established conventions, as this is often how things end up getting accepted and wildly misplayed.

Also, with regards to terrain, I'm sorry to bury your witch hunt here, but I literally just realised this morning that I was doing this well before Ben was winning BLACKOUT. I took all my own terrain to @Paul Buckler's 34 man Dogger Invitational last month...and shock horror, camped out the table all weekend. I was able to win 4/5 games with Ironjawz and come 2nd, so tbh it would stand to reason that I was gaining some nefarious benefit from my terrain! (look at those Rock Lobbas hidden behind that terrain even though they don't need LoS to shoot!) 

You have to excuse my sarcasm, but I'm honestly baffled by all this. Truly diminishes my faith in some of the people who frequent this forum that a select bunch of people not even at the event can pick up on something that was literally not even mentioned over the weekend and try to warp it into some sort of shocking controversy. Hot take; there isn't one!

In terms of TGA moderation, this thread is skating on very thin ice now.

[ClockworkGeo91]

11 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

You have to excuse my sarcasm, but I'm honestly baffled by all this. Truly diminishes my faith in some of the people who frequent this forum that a select bunch of people not even at the event can pick up on something that was literally not even mentioned over the weekend and try to warp it into some sort of shocking controversy. Hot take; there isn't one!

In terms of TGA moderation, this thread is skating on very thin ice now.

Yeah the entire discussion now spans three threads, there seems to be a lot of negativity surrounding something I had never even thought much of before, never mind people getting so worked up about it.

Especially since a large amount of people are giving more than 2 cents, and arguing based on hearsay, who were not even present. (nor was I, hence why I am not giving much credence to the hearsay).

[Chris Tomlin]

6 minutes ago, ClockworkGeo91 said:

Yeah the entire discussion now spans three threads, there seems to be a lot of negativity surrounding something I had never even thought much of before, never mind people getting so worked up about it.

Especially since a large amount of people are giving more than 2 cents, and arguing based on hearsay, who were not even present. (nor was I, hence why I am not giving much credence to the hearsay).

Perhaps these people are upset that the event ran super smoothly without comp and with Realm rules in effect? Maybe they are disappointed they couldn't jump on slating AoS 2 as a tournament game (because it works great!) so instead made up their own pathetic little drama? Who knows!

All I know is that there wasn't an ounce of negativity towards this strange little topic at my event, nor any other UK event I have been to where people have used their own terrain. Guys, it's honestly not a big deal whatsoever.

Why can't we celebrate success, as opposed to trying to find negatives? Especially ones that don't exist!

[ianob]

Way way off the topic of terrain now

I was on the stream table at the time this Brass Rune discussion happened, so we were having exactly the same discussion on the table behind the table you're talking abou, and ended up in a 5-way discussion about it. Chris needed to make a ruling, and regardless of "how it has always been played" (which is very often synonymous with "how people have always played it incorrectly") made what was the correct ruling. But regardless of the outcome of that ruling, I was standing 4ft away and I can tell you that Ben's opinion carried zero more weight than anyone else's opinion in that discussion aside from the TO, nor was he throwing around "but it's my game" or anything like that, which people seem to be implying here. So things were exactly the way they should be. There's no conspiracy.

And honestly (to answer someone further up the thread) would you rather the guy designing the game didn't play events? Would you rather he was on the bottom tables? That wouldn't help us at all!

14 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Perhaps these people are upset that the event ran super smoothly without comp and with Realm rules in effect? Maybe they are disappointed they couldn't jump on slating AoS 2 as a tournament game (because it works great!) so instead made up their own pathetic little drama? Who knows!

All I know is that there wasn't an ounce of negativity towards this strange little topic at my event, nor any other UK event I have been to where people have used their own terrain. Guys, it's honestly not a big deal whatsoever.

Why can't we celebrate success, as opposed to trying to find negatives? Especially ones that don't exist!

We've just changed our rules pack for next event to be using realm rules, and I'm really looking forward to talking through the thought process going from "this is absolute bollocks" to "yep these work" over the course of a bunch of games in the realms. I'll be your poster boy for opinion change based on solid evidence if you need one

[ClockworkGeo91]

4 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Perhaps these people are upset that the event ran super smoothly without comp and with Realm rules in effect? Maybe they are disappointed they couldn't jump on slating AoS 2 as a tournament game (because it works great!) so instead made up their own pathetic little drama? Who knows!

All I know is that there wasn't an ounce of negativity towards this strange little topic at my event, nor any other UK event I have been to where people have used their own terrain. Guys, it's honestly not a big deal whatsoever.

Why can't we celebrate success, as opposed to trying to find negatives? Especially ones that don't exist!

Agreed - Such negative bandwagon. All the negative people weren't even there, everyone who was there says it was awesome! So I know who I am in agreement with.

I'm only upset that I missed out on such an awesome event.

And again, supporting rules that reduce the need for pre game social interaction and discussion is never something that should be supported, just so people don't feel 'awkward'. Sorry, not something I can agree with.

[DerZauberer]

This topic went horribly off. 

I'm baffled this topic is so hot right now at TGA.

While i'm a big fan of every scenery you can get on the table and I would love to play on Ben's map/terrain, this discussion in this topic was not about the blackout event. It originated from it but was clearly neutral and event independent.
But people still argue about things happened at the event. And in my opinion, no reaction about the event was really helpful. Neither calling out specific cases that may be happened as somebody may have heard it, neither bringing peoples anxiety in, neither being sarcastic about members of TGA. There are good points for people which complaint about terrain placing, e.g. the event pack which clearly stated that terrain is set up by the TO.  But there are other strong points for ben placing his terrain, as they set it up both before deployment and they could easily switch/swap it off or simply refuse to use it.

So back to the original topic: 

I think the scenery is a huge part of AoS, even in tournaments and the better the scenery is, the more fun I get out of it. If you maybe remember the 40k London GT in May this year, there was a huge disaster regarding terrain and people were absolutely put off.

The terrain is an integral part of the game and it's there for both players to enjoy, not just one. If there is a heavy imbalance of cover or LoS, you still get to roll off to choose which side you deploy on. If there is the time, it's even way better to set up terrain together (as described in several games, 40k kill team for example) as you have nice interaction pre-game and can create a nice board. It would be just "stupid" to fortify a site with a lot of terrains, just to lose the roll-off and give the opponent a free advantage.  And if someone sets up all terrain by himself, just talk to your opponent and re-arrange some part of it you think is messed up. If he declines, just use the terrain/rules the TO provides. Iny my opinion it's a no-brainer where everyone has his chance to receive what he wants. 

[Drib]

1 hour ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Perhaps these people are upset that the event ran super smoothly without comp and with Realm rules in effect? Maybe they are disappointed they couldn't jump on slating AoS 2 as a tournament game (because it works great!) so instead made up their own pathetic little drama? Who knows!

All I know is that there wasn't an ounce of negativity towards this strange little topic at my event, nor any other UK event I have been to where people have used their own terrain. Guys, it's honestly not a big deal whatsoever.

Why can't we celebrate success, as opposed to trying to find negatives? Especially ones that don't exist!

This discussion was not meant to be directed towards Blackout (some are still stuck on it but that's not meant). Blackout truely was the trigger, as it pointed out to some of us an issue we were not aware of. Yes most were not present. And no, we don't envy your tournament or want to make it apear bad (at least for my part). Most of us want to share our opinion. And the topic is (or should be):

"Should someone in a competive tournament be allowed to bring their own terrain even if there is a preset set avaible?"

So back to topic.

Having a different kind of scenery changes the probability of everyone (not only the ones using it). So in general it allows a slight inbalance to occure wich reduces the comparability of the individual performance.

What I want to say is, that everyone needs to be asked if it is okay for them that someone uses different terrain. And just one NO should be enough to ban any bonus terrain. Aleast if there are no regulations made by the TOs beforehand.

I also appreciate a regulation where everyone needs to bring half of the tables terrain by themself (with given restrictions/guidelines).

[Mephisto]

@Chris Tomlin are you removing the line in the Tournament Pack that said terrain would be provided and is not to be moved or adding some sort of exception for future events or would you advise other TOs do the same to curb the negative perception? I get that it's not a big deal and making exceptions to rules and playing with your own terrain is really common place at big events but clearly some sort of negativity has spawned and I'm curious how we could alleviate things like this in the future. Ya know, turn a negative into an opportunity for positive. Who knows, maybe the next big event will happen and the sort of people only interested in hottakes will manufacture drama and forget about this. I'm actually curious about the question of terrain and tournament play. My friend and I were exactly discussing how we'd arrange a tournament pack last night (mostly talking about point spreads and how we'd weight KP vs the Soft Scores, etc) but now apparently terrain is something we need to worry about and I'm curious how to move forward.

[Chris Tomlin]

34 minutes ago, Mephisto said:

@Chris Tomlin are you removing the line in the Tournament Pack that said terrain would be provided and is not to be moved or adding some sort of exception for future events or would you advise other TOs do the same so to curb the negative perception?

I suspect some amended wording could be sensible, yeh. Certainly couldn't hurt if it's something you're concerned about.

[DrJekyll325]

3 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

There was nothing that I could see for myself to indicate this would be a table wide effect, especially as the same ability within the Blood Tithe table does stipulate that it is (it would need to state something with regards to range as there is no focal point for the unbind, unlike the Rune, which is an artefact on a specific hero).

The most recent designer's commentary specifically states that the range is unlimited:  "Q: Does the unbinding effect of The Brazen Rune’s automatic unbinding ability have an unlimited range? A: Yes."

Or am I misunderstanding the nature of the rules question?

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++

Locking this now as it’s just gone massively off topic. 

6 minutes ago, DrJekyll325 said:

The most recent designer's commentary specifically states that the range is unlimited:  "Q: Does the unbinding effect of The Brazen Rune’s automatic unbinding ability have an unlimited range? A: Yes."

Or am I misunderstanding the nature of the rules question?

Send it into the FAQ address (AOSFAQ@ gwplc.com) to get it answered but at end of the day, Chris ruled it worked a certain way at his event and the players used that.