Lord Castellant is obsolete

[Black Blade]

It makes me sad too, I love the model, I think he is quite striking with the halberd and lantern but while he was appealing he is lacking compared to other melee hero options in the army. The main thrust of my argument is based on his competition that, in my opinion you would never not take over the Castellant... the Lord Veritant. 

The catellants lantern is largely useless in this period of the game as you must roll a 7+ for a save which is near impossible given the prevalence of rend and the nerfing of mystic shield. The Veritant has a lantern therefore he can take mystic lights, he's a wizard hunter including being able to unbind in some cases with +3 to the role. He has the gryphhound. He has the same weapon plus one attack. He is a priest and can take a prayer. All this he gets for a measly 20 points over the Castellant. I think the Veritant needs nerfing less than I think the Castellant needs buffing/rewriting. I think a lot of the early stormcast units/models need a small rework to make sense in the new landscape and that they were designed with a different kind of game in mind. 

Looking forward to arguments and concurrences.

[Freejack02]

Castellant is not bad, and lantern is still wonderfully useful... since when is giving 20 Sequitors or 10 Evocators +1 save not useful? Still makes Stardrakes hard as hell to kill, and he's even better in 2.0 now that he comes packaged with a free gryph. Veritant on the other hand, will rarely see play - his largest selling point (the +3 unbind) is just too difficult to trigger. They both get a gryph (so that's irrelevant), the melee profile is largely irrelevant, but the prayer and unbind are nice. 

The fact that you think the Veritant needs a nerf is pretty telling, seeing as he is widely considered just all around poor. 

[Carnelian]

+1 save from the castellant is insanely good

[Yoshiya]

100 points for the old mystic shield that can't be dispelled and also has a chance to heal, on a 3+ body with 6 wounds that can fight alright and also comes with a free (albeit it weak) chaff unit is hardly bad. Especially in an edition where +1 save is pretty rare.

People used to pay that much back for a wizard that would need to get a 6+ roll and hope it wasn't dispelled on a far more fragile body that was lucky to kill a grot or two. The only thing you lose in comparison is a unbind but that's in an army that now has access to a dispel scroll if they really need it.

[Pitloze]

D3 mortal wounds to Deamons is also no joke. if you leave the Eagle Beagle close by (by gaming the 9" rule) then summoned Deamon units can't charge him the same turn they landed. So you can at least burn them down a bit before they come into combat.

[AdamR]

I R confused...

The Castellant is virtually unchanged from 1st ed - where he was pretty much an auto include - with the exception that you now get a free gryph hound.

How is that in any sense obsolete?

[Trayanee]

This is really funny. I mean, If you were talking about Liberators, Paladins, almost all old battalions, maybe even Relictor...I would probably just nod, but Castellant? As long as Stardrake remains relevant, his armor bot and his puppy do so too.

[Vasshpit]

3 hours ago, Pitloze said:

 "Eagle Beagle" 

???

Not sure why but I had a good laugh at this!

[Freejack02]

2 hours ago, Trayanee said:

maybe even Relictor

Relictor is still good too, although the points hike did hurt. Their warscroll "prayers" were switched to just "abilities" now, so you can still use one of them and cast a prayer. 25% point increase always hurts, but he's still quite useful!

[Black Blade]

10 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Castellant is not bad, and lantern is still wonderfully useful... since when is giving 20 Sequitors or 10 Evocators +1 save not useful? Still makes Stardrakes hard as hell to kill, and he's even better in 2.0 now that he comes packaged with a free gryph. Veritant on the other hand, will rarely see play - his largest selling point (the +3 unbind) is just too difficult to trigger. They both get a gryph (so that's irrelevant), the melee profile is largely irrelevant, but the prayer and unbind are nice. 

The fact that you think the Veritant needs a nerf is pretty telling, seeing as he is widely considered just all around poor. 

 

8 hours ago, Carnelian said:

+1 save from the castellant is insanely good

 

8 hours ago, Yoshiya said:

100 points for the old mystic shield that can't be dispelled and also has a chance to heal, on a 3+ body with 6 wounds that can fight alright and also comes with a free (albeit it weak) chaff unit is hardly bad. Especially in an edition where +1 save is pretty rare.

People used to pay that much back for a wizard that would need to get a 6+ roll and hope it wasn't dispelled on a far more fragile body that was lucky to kill a grot or two. The only thing you lose in comparison is a unbind but that's in an army that now has access to a dispel scroll if they really need it.

 

6 hours ago, AdamR said:

I R confused...

The Castellant is virtually unchanged from 1st ed - where he was pretty much an auto include - with the exception that you now get a free gryph hound.

How is that in any sense obsolete?

Nobody seems to have engaged with my main point driving this claim, that for 20 points more you get a better Hero in the Lord Veritant. +1 to save is nice I don't disagree with that statement but with AoS 2.0 the massive spike in Wizards we have all seen makes the extra dispel, potentially at a +3 super useful and a force multiplier denier. Not to mention his Sanction ability will weaken many wizards to the point that a single round of shooting will guarantee their demise or kill one who was wounded last turn. You can give him a prayer too as I said which furthers his versatility and usefulness. I don't see a world in the current wizard meta in which I take a Castellant when i can afford a Veritant. Then again maybe I've been playing a lot more nighthaunt/death wizard spam than most people. 

[AdamR]

For 20 points more you lose out on the ability to give your deathstar unit a 2+ save rerolling 1's.

If it's unbinding I'm after, I'd take a Knight Incantor instead, for that all important auto unbind.

[Freejack02]

19 minutes ago, Black Blade said:

Nobody seems to have engaged with my main point driving this claim, that for 20 points more you get a better Hero in the Lord Veritant.

 

15 minutes ago, AdamR said:

For 20 points more you lose out on the ability to give your deathstar unit a 2+ save rerolling 1's.

If it's unbinding I'm after, I'd take a Knight Incantor instead, for that all important auto unbind.

This nails it - if you want unbinds, you take a superior character. If you want a Priest, you take a superior character. If you want a Lantern, you take a superior character. Veritant has no real place currently. 

 

[hughwyeth]

I just purchased a lord castellant and the thread title made me sad. But the argument makes zero sense to me. +1 to save is more impressive in 2.0 because mystic shield can't do it anymore. +1 to save is now very rare and as mentioned by others, 2+ rerolling 1s, even with more rend and mw in the game is still fantastic. 

[Criti]

34 minutes ago, Black Blade said:

 

Nobody seems to have engaged with my main point driving this claim, that for 20 points more you get a better Hero in the Lord Veritant. +1 to save is nice I don't disagree with that statement but with AoS 2.0 the massive spike in Wizards we have all seen makes the extra dispel, potentially at a +3 super useful and a force multiplier denier. Not to mention his Sanction ability will weaken many wizards to the point that a single round of shooting will guarantee their demise or kill one who was wounded last turn. You can give him a prayer too as I said which furthers his versatility and usefulness. I don't see a world in the current wizard meta in which I take a Castellant when i can afford a Veritant. Then again maybe I've been playing a lot more nighthaunt/death wizard spam than most people. 

A Veritant is in absolutely no way a better character than a Castellant.

Veritant can unbind a spell...OCCASIONALLY at -3.

Castellant can have a significant impact on the game EVERY TURN with no dice roll needed.  The obvious targets have been mentioned - big Sequitors blocks, Drakes, Evocators...+1 to save on any of them isn't "nice." It's HUGE.

And when an Incantor is only a few points more and comes with an auto unbind, the ability to actually cast, the ability to dispel, and suicide bombs, I cannot think of any situation in which I would EVER even consider a Veritant. 

And yes, I face a lot of magic spam.  My 2 most regular opponents, who account for about 65% of all my games, are Nagash-happy Death and Disciplesof Tzeentch.  I see no way in which a Veritant helps me more than a Castellant with that.

[Kramer]

Haha, he has now the rarest and one of the most valuable support abilities in the game in my opinion. I would spend a lot of points for an certain +1 save in every army I own. 

[Justinbot]

Wait Castellant comes with a free gryph hound now? Oh I'm so going to shoot for building a Guardians of Alarielle battalion now

Was wondering why his model came with a gryph hound but we needed to put it in a separate unit... where was this update published?

 

 

[Black Blade]

Well I haven't played many games in my time with Warhammer Fantasy or Age of Sigmar mini's and the refutation here in this thread seems pretty unanimous so I must take that in hand with my inexperience and number of games under my belt. Thank you all for participating. I am on the poorer side of American incomes so my resources are limited to actually field an army that is updated with newest releases.  This is almost all I have outside of a small Free Peoples army, but I would appreciate tips on where I should expand my collection when able. I put the Castellant back in and added in Quicksilver Swords in place of the Veritant. Maybe what led my to believe the Castellant was inferior was army I put him in. again thanks for your time everyone.

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Lord-Castellant (100)
- General
- Trait: Staunch Defender 
Lord-Celestant On Dracoth (220)
- Tempestos Hammer & Thundershield
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
- Mount Trait: Pack Leader
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Bless Weapons
Knight-Incantor (140)
Luminark Of Hysh With White Battlemage (240)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warblade & Shield
- 2x Grandblades
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 2x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows

Units
4 x Fulminators (480)
5 x Retributors (220)
5 x Evocators (200)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2500 / 2500
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 240 / 500
Wounds: 144
 

[Mikester1487]

18 minutes ago, Justinbot said:

Wait Castellant comes with a free gryph hound now? Oh I'm so going to shoot for building a Guardians of Alarielle battalion now

Was wondering why his model came with a gryph hound but we needed to put it in a separate unit... where was this update published?

 

 

It's on his updated warscroll. 

[Justinbot]

1 hour ago, Mikester1487 said:

It's on his updated warscroll. 

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I just looked up his warscroll on the webstore and I don't see anything about bringing a gryph-hound with him. I just see a separate gryph-hound warscroll same as last edition. Does it specifically say he gets to auto-include one?

[Kramer]

5 minutes ago, Justinbot said:

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I just looked up his warscroll on the webstore and I don't see anything about bringing a gryph-hound with him. I just see a separate gryph-hound warscroll same as last edition. Does it specifically say he gets to auto-include one?

Hmm thats weird. I would prefer the app to the website though for up to ‘dateness’. From the age of Sigmar app:

[AverageBoss]

4 hours ago, Black Blade said:

Well I haven't played many games in my time with Warhammer Fantasy or Age of Sigmar mini's and the refutation here in this thread seems pretty unanimous so I must take that in hand with my inexperience and number of games under my belt. Thank you all for participating. I am on the poorer side of American incomes so my resources are limited to actually field an army that is updated with newest releases.  This is almost all I have outside of a small Free Peoples army, but I would appreciate tips on where I should expand my collection when able. I put the Castellant back in and added in Quicksilver Swords in place of the Veritant. Maybe what led my to believe the Castellant was inferior was army I put him in. again thanks for your time everyone.

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Lord-Castellant (100)
- General
- Trait: Staunch Defender 
Lord-Celestant On Dracoth (220)
- Tempestos Hammer & Thundershield
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
- Mount Trait: Pack Leader
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Bless Weapons
Knight-Incantor (140)
Luminark Of Hysh With White Battlemage (240)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warblade & Shield
- 2x Grandblades
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 2x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows

Units
4 x Fulminators (480)
5 x Retributors (220)
5 x Evocators (200)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2500 / 2500
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 240 / 500
Wounds: 144
 

If you want to run Staunch Defender as your trait, making the LCoD your general is a better choice, as since he is on a larger base, he makes a larger bubble that more things can fit in. He is also much faster, able to take that bubble where needed, and pretty much guaranteeing he is rocking that 2+ reroll 1s (unless he charges).

[Black Blade]

@AverageBoss Assuming I want to keep the L Castellant as my General which trait would you recommend? 

[Galamund]

22 hours ago, Black Blade said:

Looking forward to arguments and concurrences.

I'll join the chorus of noting the relative rarity of +1 to saves, not to mention that unlike the old Mystic Shield, the Warding Lantern can't be stopped. Now in 2.0, this ability is significantly more impactful given its rarity. Even if the Castellant offered nothing else, that ability single-handedly would make him better than anything the Veritant offers, assuming you have a unit worthy of the ability. If you're taking 5 man squads, then the Castellant might not be worth it. But if you have 30 Liberators (in 1.0), 20 Sequitors (in 2.0) or a Stardrake (in either edition), the Castellant is in my opinion the best foot hero we have. The free Gryph-Hound is icing now! While the Prayers are useful, none of them are as good as the Warding Lantern either. If the Veritant and Relictor were 80pts, I'd consider keeping them in my list. But now, as far as I'm concerned, the Lord-Relictor is the only "generic" foot hero worth taking.

[Black Blade]

26 minutes ago, Galamund said:

I'll join the chorus of noting the relative rarity of +1 to saves, not to mention that unlike the old Mystic Shield, the Warding Lantern can't be stopped. Now in 2.0, this ability is significantly more impactful given its rarity. Even if the Castellant offered nothing else, that ability single-handedly would make him better than anything the Veritant offers, assuming you have a unit worthy of the ability. If you're taking 5 man squads, then the Castellant might not be worth it. But if you have 30 Liberators (in 1.0), 20 Sequitors (in 2.0) or a Stardrake (in either edition), the Castellant is in my opinion the best foot hero we have. The free Gryph-Hound is icing now! While the Prayers are useful, none of them are as good as the Warding Lantern either. If the Veritant and Relictor were 80pts, I'd consider keeping them in my list. But now, as far as I'm concerned, the Lord-Relictor is the only "generic" foot hero worth taking.

Thanks for laying it all out like that. Gives me a lot to think on. 

[EMMachine]

11 hours ago, Justinbot said:

Wait Castellant comes with a free gryph hound now? Oh I'm so going to shoot for building a Guardians of Alarielle battalion now

You should remember that the Gryph-Hounds Warscroll was updated, too. And with the new Warscroll only Stormcast Eternals Units profit from the Warning Cry ability.