New Stormcast... sweet baby jesus this is powerful stuff.

[Matador]

I bought the new battletome on Friday and spent the weekend reading it and making notes on all the characters, units, chapters, etc...  Now I've never been much of a Stormcast player (used em 4 times) but it's always important to know what your opponent can do and buying the new books is an investment for success when those armies are across the table from you.  

So my take away?  Holy ******! their is so much power creep in just this one thin book that it is going to impact the types of armies and tactics folks are going to have to employ if they want to keep up with their older armies. The sheer number of buffs and synergy build-in is staggering, and left me gobsmacked by the time I had read it all. 

Don't get me wrong this isn't one of those "whaaaaa!  OP!!!!" posts, it's a post about genuine puzzlement.  The tack they have taken in this book is in such contrast to the changes made in the core and especially the GHB where we could all see the deliberate effort to balance out lists.  The changes in Stormcast set them up as a superior force from a base level before any real meta-tweaking is even taken into account. 

For other armies to have any hope of keeping up they will have to become exceptionally narrow focused on just one of two tactics and synergies until they receive a new battletome of their own that lifts them to the Stormcast level. Until then, any variation from the pure meta will be toast. 

Interesting choice on GW's part, not sure what their plan is but this was a shocker.  

[Skabnoze]

30 minutes ago, Matador said:

So my take away?  Holy ******! their is so much power creep in just this one thin book that it is going to impact the types of armies and tactics folks are going to have to employ if they want to keep up with their older armies. 

It's not a thin book.  It is actually quite thick for a battletome.  Just sayin...

[Matador]

Just now, Skabnoze said:

It's not a thin book.  It is actually quite thick for a battletome.  Just sayin...

LOL  and what was your take away? or were you just looking for some low hanging fruit to bust my chops with?

[Skabnoze]

40 minutes ago, Matador said:

LOL  and what was your take away? or were you just looking for some low hanging fruit to bust my chops with?

Probably mostly just busting your chops! ?

I picked up the book but I have not had a chance yet to read much of it.  I will say that Sequitors do seem to be pretty nuts as a unit and especially for their price.  But I have not examined the whole army yet so I don’t feel like I can make an effective critique - even just a single unit.

[Freejack02]

1 hour ago, Matador said:

I bought the new battletome on Friday and spent the weekend reading it and making notes on all the characters, units, chapters, etc...  Now I've never been much of a Stormcast player (used em 4 times) but it's always important to know what your opponent can do and buying the new books is an investment for success when those armies are across the table from you.  

So my take away?  Holy ******! their is so much power creep in just this one thin book that it is going to impact the types of armies and tactics folks are going to have to employ if they want to keep up with their older armies. The sheer number of buffs and synergy build-in is staggering, and left me gobsmacked by the time I had read it all. 

Don't get me wrong this isn't one of those "whaaaaa!  OP!!!!" posts, it's a post about genuine puzzlement.  The tack they have taken in this book is in such contrast to the changes made in the core and especially the GHB where we could all see the deliberate effort to balance out lists.  The changes in Stormcast set them up as a superior force from a base level before any real meta-tweaking is even taken into account. 

For other armies to have any hope of keeping up they will have to become exceptionally narrow focused on just one of two tactics and synergies until they receive a new battletome of their own that lifts them to the Stormcast level. Until then, any variation from the pure meta will be toast. 

Interesting choice on GW's part, not sure what their plan is but this was a shocker.  

What did you find that was so much more powerful than other battletomes/factions? Curious to know what you think is OP compared to what the SCE players do. Sequitors and Evocators are very strong - I don't think anyone will argue otherwise - but nothing else in terms of new units really jumped out at me. Gavriel should have had his CA limited to 1/turn, being able to stack guaranteed charges is a little ridiculous and a lot of the theorycrafted lists around here are focused on that. The Stormhost options are cool, but now that they limited their abuse with the latest FAQ - combined with the fact that you are forced to take (usually) sub-optimal artefacts and command traits balances them fairly well. The change to Scions was welcome, and while I do think that Shock and Awe was a little unnecessary given how versatile and useful Scions already was - I don't find it overpowered. 

[GeneralZero]

I think this battletome is on par with LoN, NH, Nurgle, and recent publications. And to be honnest, SCE do not seem the strongest of them.

[MightyMetro]

I think there may be two points here: power creep; and reseting for a new edition.

First, power creep. GW may have a bit of a problem with SC chambers each being self contained mini factions that contain units with little to distinguish them in play style and models. Libs/Seq,  Jud/Cast.  

Beyond the fancy new robes, why would i bother with castigators?  “Well, Cast are better against NH, Jud are better agaist Chaos” I hear you say. Were it not for buffs against specific opponents, there is little to separate them or justify a new kind of archer, imho. So, perhaps, power creep occurs as GW gives SC a little something extra to justify replacing your AOS1 SC.

Second, resetting. this is the first battletomb of a new edition.  AOS2 has introduced things like new summoning that can have a significant impact on points values etc.  Some units in older battletombs will get stronger/weaker, cheaper/more expensive as changes are made to balance different factions.  This could appear like power creep/nerfing in the short term, i guess.  However, I believe that these resets will seem less effectual after a few more battletombs are reset.

[chord]

There had to be power creep for the new units, otherwise existing stormcast players wouldn't buy the new units.   (see Vanguard chamber whom many of us did not buy)

[DanielFM]

2 hours ago, MightyMetro said:

I think there may be two points here: power creep; and reseting for a new edition.

First, power creep. GW may have a bit of a problem with SC chambers each being self contained mini factions that contain units with little to distinguish them in play style and models. Libs/Seq,  Jud/Cast.  

Beyond the fancy new robes, why would i bother with castigators?  “Well, Cast are better against NH, Jud are better agaist Chaos” I hear you say. Were it not for buffs against specific opponents, there is little to separate them or justify a new kind of archer, imho. So, perhaps, power creep occurs as GW gives SC a little something extra to justify replacing your AOS1 SC.

Second, resetting. this is the first battletomb of a new edition.  AOS2 has introduced things like new summoning that can have a significant impact on points values etc.  Some units in older battletombs will get stronger/weaker, cheaper/more expensive as changes are made to balance different factions.  This could appear like power creep/nerfing in the short term, i guess.  However, I believe that these resets will seem less effectual after a few more battletombs are reset.

I agree with you second point. First one, well, I kind of disagree. Castigators could easily be balanced with Judicators and don't overlap, GW just did a half-assed job with them.

But please: battletomes, not battletombs. 

[Kramer]

I don’t play them. Read it for the fluff and then of course read the rules as well. So I didn’t read it looking for crazy synergies. 

As the golden ‘ponies’ of GW this seems very fitting. They have a crazy amount of artefact options. Those might be a bit much but still fair play to them. But for me the addition of stormhost seems like a very good thing. It add actual character to your army. It’s somethig they have been adding to newer armies and it feels wrong if the main protagonists lack that option. 

The only criticism I can think of is that certain stormhost are fluff wise so tied to certain units I think it’s a shame they didn’t enforce taking them in that specific stormhosts. (Example celestial warbringers could easily have the requirement of minimum one wizard stormcast hero and only sequitors are battleline or something along those lines)

Yes some new units knock their predecessors a bit back  but not everything can be the best option so i’ll Wait and see a bit before I judge that. Especially for a faction with so many options this will occur I guess. 

Just my two cents. 

[Richelieu]

Can you give a concrete example of a unit or synergy in the battletome that is so powerful it warrants a thread proclaiming doom and gloom for every other army?  

[ledha]

50 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

Can you give a concrete example of a unit or synergy in the battletome that is so powerful it warrants a thread proclaiming doom and gloom for every other army?  

i think the cleansing phalanx that give to sequitor (the best unit of the battletome) reroll to hit, to wound and to save is quite ridiculous.

[Freejack02]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

i think the cleansing phalanx that give to sequitor (the best unit of the battletome) reroll to hit, to wound and to save is quite ridiculous.

The battalion only confers one of those benefits though; you must still have Evocators successfully cast Empower on a unit of Sequitors, then have that same unit channel their shields during combat. Without the battalion, they could still do 2 of the 3. 

I think the battalion ability itself is not overpowered - the problem is that the battalion is made up entirely of already very efficient units. There's no tax, it's not overbearingly expensive, it gives the usual artefact + CP, which means there's little reason not to take it. Most lists are running Evocators and Sequitors anyway. 

[Richelieu]

7 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

The battalion only confers one of those benefits though; you must still have Evocators successfully cast Empower on a unit of Sequitors, then have that same unit channel their shields during combat. Without the battalion, they could still do 2 of the 3. 

I think the battalion ability itself is not overpowered - the problem is that the battalion is made up entirely of already very efficient units. There's no tax, it's not overbearingly expensive, it gives the usual artefact + CP, which means there's little reason not to take it. Most lists are running Evocators and Sequitors anyway. 

Exactly.  It's good, no argument there, but the question was what is sooooooo strong that every other army has been invalidated?  The only thing in my mind that makes the cut of borderline too strong is the Gavriel alphastrike.  The vast majority of the new SC units are overpriced and the storm hosts have severe tradeoffs.  

I do think SCE are a top tier army though.  

[Yokai]

6 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

The vast majority of the new SC units are overpriced and the storm hosts have severe tradeoffs.  

Overpriced? Only in monetary terms, points-wise I think they are underpriced.

For example, why would you take a unit of Liberators when Sequitors cost only 20 more and are better in almost every way?

[Freejack02]

6 minutes ago, Yokai said:

Overpriced? Only in monetary terms, points-wise I think they are underpriced.

For example, why would you take a unit of Liberators when Sequitors cost only 20 more and are better in almost every way?

Sequitors and Evocators are the exception (imo), and I would also put the Celestar Ballista in that camp - but those are only 3 new units out of... what, 12?

However, I do understand that the number of "poor options" is largely irrelevant; what matters is the amount of strong options. SCE have some, but overall I don't see them ruling the 2.0 competetive scene.

[Sleboda]

4 hours ago, chord said:

There had to be power creep for the new units, otherwise existing stormcast players wouldn't buy the new units.   (see Vanguard chamber whom many of us did not buy)

Not even close to true, and really shows a poor view of fellow gamers.

I have purchased tons of units for my various armies over the decades without even knowing their rules first. Heck, when Tomb Kings got their last big release, I pre-ordered a minimum 2 each of all new items, and got 4+ of some just because I loved the feel of the army and the look of the models.

I've even purchased new units that are just miserable on the table simply to paint them up and play when the mood struck.

Power creep is largely an illusion, anyway. It's more that people need time to figure out how to react to new things than it is the new things being OP.

[Dead Scribe]

The thing with stormcast is that I don't think they will rule the competitive scene, but I can see how they can dominate casuals.

[Freejack02]

12 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Not even close to true, and really shows a poor view of fellow gamers.

I have purchased tons of units for my various armies over the decades without even knowing their rules first. Heck, when Tomb Kings got their last big release, I pre-ordered a minimum 2 each of all new items, and got 4+ if some just because I loved the feel of the army and the look of the models.

I've even purchased new units that are just miserable on the table simply to paint them up and play when the mood stuck.

You are a single case out of many - I agree with@chordthat a large number of competitive focused players need some incentive to revamp their already effective lists - and power creep is probably the most common way to do that. 

 

14 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Power creep is largely an illusion, anyway. It's more that people need time to figure out how to react to new things than it is the new things being OP.

I hate to keep bringing up the Liberator vs Sequitor comparison (seems like it's been beaten to death), but power creep is very much a thing. Compare the two units - they belong to the same faction, fill the same role, and are thematically similar; but Sequitors outclass Liberators in nearly every mechanical way. Liberators were old and common, Sequitors new and needed to sell. Making them mechanically superior instantly made them desirable. 

[The World Tree]

I don't really see the book as having power creep in any massive way, just that there is very little spare design space in the army. They expanded too much too soon and there are units that just have no value at all (the hero section is nuts). They needed to give the new units value to justify people buying it. That isn't cynical, it is completely reasonable - give players a reason to use units. Rules wise I think they did a very good job - most units (not heroes) have a function, maybe excluding prosecutors. People make (rightly) the Liberator - Sequitor comparison a lot and yes, the Sequitor is better but the Liberator still is good. The points values are just off slightly. Paladins should be cheaper than Evocators, Sequitors should probably be 20 points more expensive.

The argument that they just made the new stuff better doesn't hold up - the Lord Arcanum on Tauralon is of debated value, Castigators are not great except perhaps in Soul Strike (although I think they have value) and the Lord Exorcist is not good.

[Sleboda]

26 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

You are a single case out of many - I agree with@chordthat a large number of competitive focused players need some incentive to revamp their already effective lists - and power creep is probably the most common way to do that. 

 

Actually, I think I'm not a single case at all and that competitive players (whom I agree will likely chase the units they perceive to be the ones that are creeping) are such a tiny slice of the pie that is of nearly negligible benefit to GW to cater to them with creep.

Even -if- they did, they would run the risk of alienating more gamers than would embrace them for it.

On the specifics of Liberator vs Sequitor -

Sequitors cost 20 points more and are only battleline with a specific general. Even if they are better, there is a cost to getting them above that of Liberators.

Yes, of course better things have appeal. In won't deny that. Then again, so does new-shiny and rule of cool.  Sequitors are not showing up in armies (including the vast, vast, vast majority of armies that never hit a tournament table) just because they are power creepy.

[schwabbele]

For me being a new aos/ sce player I am totally overwhelmed by the options they give me ?

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, chord said:

There had to be power creep for the new units, otherwise existing stormcast players wouldn't buy the new units.   (see Vanguard chamber whom many of us did not buy)

You don't have to power-creep to get sales - just give a compelling reason to purchase.  A playstyle change and expanded options can do the same thing.  

You don't have to try to sell me continually better hammers than the ones I already have in my tool-box if you can sell me a screwdriver and one was previously not available.

[Mephisto]

When I first got into AOS after a bit of a hiatus from Warhammer in general, my friend had a starter box+extra SCE sitting around for his Mixed Order list. To "learn the game" I played on SCE. This was back in 1.0, mind you. I say this to point out that I'm not really on the bandwagon of Stormcast haters. They're not my army. They're simply not my thing. Still, playing them those few games while I built up my Death forces endeared them slightly to me. I understood their role as the thing to help grow the hobby and garner interest and in that respect I'm not upset. I want people to play this game. I want the hobby to expand.

I admit I could pile on along others about how they should've released another army's battletome rather than "yet another" Stormcast one but honestly for a flagship army they needed the fat to be trimmed and things to be gathered in a concise and clean book since they have had so many releases (of honestly mediocre quality). That's what the new book is. The Legions of Nagash treatment for the poster army and I'm fine with it since 2.0 just launched and you need to start with your foundation set. I don't expect them to release "yet another, another" stormcast thing after this one though so I'll spare any gripes about who should've gotten a tome first.

The set up in the heavens change is a wonderful quality of life improvement that made this flavorful thing Stormcast could do interesting and tactical with the new objectives. It also translated to a streamlining of other army's reserve/deployment tricks too so that was a win-win. The tome further established SCE as their own army especially when paired with enclave/stormhost allegiance shenanigans. Basically, there was one strong way to play SCE before and in other respects they felt like an army better used allying into other armies to cover up for their weaknesses than their own varied and actual thing. So that got fixed which means you'll see more varied stormcast armies than just "protect the queen" Stardrake builds.

Now, they did round up with what I largely considered quality of life adjustments and meta buffs so the end result is just a strong overall army. Sequitors fixed a problem the army had in general which is the "good at everything" paradox. We all know the expression about a jack of all trades mastering none. The odd conundrum is that you had this elite battleline that had good saves, was good at hitting, and good at etc but they weren't really ringers at anything. Enter Sequitors which can turn on their heel between bringing the pain and holding the line. Their costs are a little inflated but they should be. And then you have Evocators which are awesome AND interesting. Every time I read the sentence "as long as two models... it's a wizard" I burst out laughing. Like here's this unit that just voltrons into a Wizard, 'arry. They also have the audacity of being good at the meta game of 2.0 between their casting support and ability to play the new objectives. There's other units but those two are the standouts. They got some new named heroes which was a subtle necessity. The irony of an army made up of all the worlds heroes had a lack of named heroes. It felt a little "too generic everyman" the army before. Now it's got some spice and personality. And that's before we talk about how the Sacrosanct Chamber is basically an army of celestial terrorists with suicide bomber vests...

Anyway, I really dig what they did and I have no plans on playing them. Playing against them? Well, we're all just going to have to take that medicine. They're good for the game in the way that Ryu is good for Street Fighter. Someone's gotta be the fulcrum of balance or measuring stick for the rest of us. Think of them like a unit of measurement. Is your army 1 Stormhograms good? Or is it just .5 stormhograms good? They're firmly a Tier 1 army with some traps in the list building step. That Tier 1 has an asterisk though. The asterisk means they're sort of S Tier because how well they play the map and how many of them you're about to see. So just... ya, know, get ready to weather the storm. It only makes the hobby healthier (marketing AND modeling; their stuff looks good and is easy to paint) and the competition better.

[Freejack02]

19 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Actually, I think I'm not a single case at all

You disagree that you are one person out of many people? Are you Legion?  (kidding)

19 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

competitive players (whom I agree will likely chase the units they perceive to be the ones that are creeping) are such a tiny slice of the pie that is of nearly negligible benefit to GW to cater to them with creep.

I think your perception of power creep being fictitious leads to an air of superiority in your views - competitive players all seek power and efficiency in their lists; but they are chasing it because they've been duped by Big Power Creep?

19 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Even -if- they did, they would run the risk of alienating more gamers than would embrace them for it.

I wish I could agree with you here (I really do), but other games show no such thing. big titles like Hearthstone or League of Legends practically live on power creep, and sales don't really decline.