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JackStreicher

Restrictions for a small Tournament

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Hello,

in Order to make AoS a little more known in our Region we are going to arrange a small AoS 2.0 tournament with 2000 points.

I have several ideas concerning restrictions in army building etc. and wanted to ask for some input and feedback.

 

Changes are colored.

 

Allowed

Firestorm Allegiances (Anvilguard etc.)

Malign Sorcery (Artifacts, endless Spells)

Compendium Units

 

Restrictions

 

No Realmscape Rules. (they're just too imbalanced)

Concerning Seraphon: Max. 2 engines of the gods (you can still summon more if that's even possible)

 

Tackling the issue of Battletome Factions VS GHB Factions

1 CP for all GHB only armies.

1 CP and one Artifact for Tomb Kings and Bretonnia (not sure if that‘s enough. Idk their current issues)

 

Apart from that:

If possible we are trying to bind it to a narrative, meaning: If there are enough players for each Grand Alliance we might let them fight for territory. The faction who wins the right battles will in the end be victorious.

Winning doesn't necessarily make you win. (to keep the hardcore players at bay - though there shouldn't be many around anyway)

Armies that include a Story which is given to the jury beforehand gain Victory points. 

You rate how pleasant your opponent was to play against (secret rating): Grants Victory points to the oponent (which we won't tell them, so the rating remains fair).

 

 

 

3 Games will be played, Scenarios

Border War
Escalation
Three places of Power (Punishes having too few heroes) // Geomantische Stätten (only heroes and behemoths can control the targets)

 

 

Keep in mind, this tournament is for experienced and new Players alike yet it is also for old players returning and we're trying to avoid frustration.

I am happy for any feedback ?

 

 

Edited by JackStreicher
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For a tournament, I think that you are deviating from standard AOS too much for it to have as much meaning.  The no realmscape rules I agree with.  Everything else, you're not playing AOS anymore in my opinion.

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10 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

For a tournament, I think that you are deviating from standard AOS too much for it to have as much meaning.  The no realmscape rules I agree with.  Everything else, you're not playing AOS anymore in my opinion.

Which part exactly do you disagree with?

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7 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

For a tournament, I think that you are deviating from standard AOS too much for it to have as much meaning.  The no realmscape rules I agree with.  Everything else, you're not playing AOS anymore in my opinion.

I agree for the most part here, although I do like the idea of giving some of the non battle tome armies a bit of a boost, instead of more points, maybe instead give them 2 or 3 extra command points at the beginning of a game. The narrative part, and how things and scored sounds pretty good imo also. However your restrictions is really what is the big downside imo, is this going to be a 1000 point or 2000 point tournament? That matters as named characters are rarely brought in 1000 point games anyway. Some factions heavily rely on named characters though, so you may rethink that. Also if it is a 2000 point tournament a max of 2 of each type of unit is impossible, some armies only have access to one battle line and you must have 3+ in a 2000 point game.

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Thanks for the good feedback!

I like the Command Ability idea...perhaps allow them +1 artifact as well?

It's 2k ?

As mentioned I guess restricting the amount of the same unit is a bad idea. I am just afraid s.o. might start to bring along that Kroak list with 3+ Engines of the gods which could frustrate a lot of new players. (Kroak has been hit by the Errata hammr I know)

Same goes for Nagash lists. Any idea on how to regulate such things?

 

Edited by JackStreicher
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1)  No named characters.  People build lists for named characters.  I wouldn't want to play in a tournament where you disallowed the model I bought and built because its a named character.  Standard tournaments allow them, and thats what I'd prefer.

2) a max of 2 of every unit.  Again.  People build lists for whats powerful and you'd be altering the standard game to make a new meta.  I don't like that.  

3) Altering the rules for command abilities.  Again not standard AOS and you are reshaping the standard meta.  I wouldn't like that.

4) granting bonus points to factions.  At this point we're not playing normal AOS, we're playing an entirely different composite.  What we've built is reflective of the standard meta.  Giving bonus points to other factions has now changed that and in effect has made things that were powerful not as powerful.  I'd need an entirely different army to participate in this tournament if I wanted to compete at the highest level, which I don't like.

5) using fan battle tomes in a tournament.  I'd never be for this.  Fan battle tomes are great for casual games but are definitely not a part of standard AOS.  Makes my army not as effective in some cases.  If those were official battle tomes I'd consider that when building a list.  I don't want to have different lists for different events.

6) winning doesn't mean you win.  This kind of goes against the "tournament" definition to me.

I think if you change this to be a narrative event, that I'd have no problem with any of it.  The use of the word tournament kind of throws me off though.

 

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10 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Thanks for the good feedback!

I like the Command Ability idea...perhaps allow them +1 artifact as well?

It's 2k ?

As mentioned I guess restricting the amount of the same unit is a bad idea. I am just afraid s.o. might start to bring along that Kroak list with 3+ Engines of the gods which could frustrate a lot of new players. (Kroak has been hit by the Errata hammr I know)

Same goes for Nagash lists. Any idea on how to regulate such things?

 

I mean I don’t know anything about nagash or how bad he is but I do know about kroak and the EotGs, honestly you could just limit that, somewhere in the rules say Seraphon players bring no more than 2 engines. It might make a couple mad but honestly it’s would be much easier to handle then everyone else’s armies not actually working because they don’t have enough units.

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3 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

 

6) winning doesn't mean you win.  This kind of goes against the "tournament" definition to me.

I think if you change this to be a narrative event, that I'd have no problem with any of it.  The use of the word tournament kind of throws me off though.

 

I disagree here, I was getting that the op meant that winning just wasn’t the only thing that gave points, which I totally like. Scoring based on how the army looks, sportsmanship, and if they have spent time to write x amount of background lore should all contribute to the scoring, not just how many major victories you’ve gotten.

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5 minutes ago, Ragnar Alpaca said:

I disagree here, I was getting that the op meant that winning just wasn’t the only thing that gave points, which I totally like. Scoring based on how the army looks, sportsmanship, and if they have spent time to write x amount of background lore should all contribute to the scoring, not just how many major victories you’ve gotten.

That's how it is supposed to work. ?

There will still be a "best palyer" ofc. But your entrie faction might win with you, or not. ?

Or in short: The hardest list with the most anti-social player won't get to the first place. (seal clubbing and anti-spcial behavior will prevent you to win) ? 

 

Quote

 granting bonus points to factions.  At this point we're not playing normal AOS, we're playing an entirely different composite.  What we've built is reflective of the standard meta.

Those players (a lot of which are coming back from 8th edition) would have a very bad time otherwise since GHB Armies get shredded by Battletome armies 80% of the time.

Edited by JackStreicher

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I'd echo much of the previous comments.  If you think your area needs alterations then go for it, but most people probably just want to play the game as they know it. If you want to help non-battletome lists a little then maybe 1 extra CP for the start of the game?

Really though you just need to make it fun!  After the first game people will typically be playing equal players so you dont need to comp too hard or it just changes which of the good players wins, it doesnt always make games for 'average' gamers any better.

You should have best in faction awards, 1st - 3rd, best player (do sports votes), best painted army, best painted Hero? etc.  last place (wooden spoon), spot prizes for silly things during games (i won some wound tracker dice for having over 20 of my models killed in a single attack, someone else won a measuring guide for making a 12" charge, etc.)

Essentially a well run and fun tournament will draw players in more than having all sorts of modified rules which only impact the best 5 players, who then just work out what is the best lists to win with what you have allowed.

 

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39 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Those players (a lot of which are coming back from 8th edition) would have a very bad time otherwise since GHB Armies get shredded by Battletome armies 80% of the time.

If you can hit it just right....  if those 8th ed guys can a) get smoked by modern stuff and b) still have a good time, then maybe they modernize their collections and become AoS regulars.  Suuuper hard to hit that one though.

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1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Winning doesn't necessarily make you win. (to keep the hardcore players at bay - though there shouldn't be many around anyway)

I would strongly encourage this approach. Your top-placing armies (1,2,3 overall; best in grand alliance; etc.) could get a certificate or something to commemorate their performances, but if there is any prize support I think that making it a random draw will get more people to come out to play, even if they have little to no chance to be on the podium at the end of the event.

 

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I would recommend scrapping the Realm based armies and realm based artifacts.  This way its a lot less thing for players to reference.

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Maybe skip the restriction (other than thé realm rules).

In France, we get a big 40k 6-men team event where the overall ranking is base 40% on the painting/modelling level of each army and 60% on your performance during the matchs.

So, pondering the rank with  a painting note could be a way to go.

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5 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Hello,

in Order to make AoS a little more known in our Region we are going to arrange a small AoS 2.0 tournament with 2000 points.

I have several ideas concerning restrictions in army building etc. and wanted to ask for some input and feedback.

Allowed

Firestorm Allegiances (Anvilguard etc.)

Malign Sorcery (Artifacts, endless Spells)

Compendium Units

 

Restrictions

Scrapped --No named Characters.-- Scrapped

No Realmscape Rules. (they're just too imbalanced)

Concerning Seraphon: Max. 2 engines of the gods (you can still summon more if that's even possible)

Scrapped --A maximum of 2 of every unit (to avoid the spamming of the same unit) - I am not sure about this one though.-- Scrapped

Scrapped --I was thinking about only allowing  Command Abilities granted by a single Model at a time to affect a unit (except the ones everyone knows).--  Scrapped

 

 

Tackling the issue of Battletome Factions VS GHB Factions

First idea: 

GHB Factions excluding Grand Alliances gain +25% points

Second Idea:
Granting specific Factions bonus points or allowing them to be taken into a BT Faction (Khemri -> Legions of Nagash, wasn't there a Tomb Kings fan made Battletome?)

Third Idea:

Granting 2-3 CP for GHB Factions (and perhaps an additional Artifact if there're no Battalions for the faction)

 

Apart from that:

If possible we are trying to bind it to a narrative, meaning: If there are enough players for each Grand Alliance we might let them fight for territory. The faction who wins the right battles will in the end be victorious.

Winning doesn't necessarily make you win. (to keep the hardcore players at bay - though there shouldn't be many around anyway)

Armies that include a Story which is given to the jury beforehand gain Victory points. 

You rate how pleasant your opponent was to play against (secret rating): Grants Victory points to the oponent (which we won't tell them, so the rating remains fair).

 

 

 

3 Games will be played, Scenarios

Border War
Escalation
Three places of Power (Punishes having too few heroes) // Geomantische Stätten (only heroes and behemoths can control the targets)

 

 

Keep in mind, this tournament is for experienced and new Players alike and we're trying to avoid frustration.

I am happy for any feedback ?

 

 

Hi Jack,

I like your idea, just keep in mind, when your only allowing 2of the same unit in the army, that some faction (like skaven etc.) only own 1battleline.

in other words such factions or army’s would be impossible to use at the tournament. also granting faction which do not own a battletome a extra 500p to spend seems a little bit to much.

dont get me wrong I like the idea, mostly since the new factions like daughter of khaine or deepkins can literally tear 80-200models apart, but just keep in mind that there are some army’s you will probably never see as their own factions,

For examples factions owning only 1unit, which sometimes isn’t even considered as battleline.

Such army’s will only have the choice of playing as a grand allegiance with other units from other factions together.

those so called grand allegiance army will have some very big problems fighting against other army’s, which carry 500p more around then them.

 As for your second idea,  

granting a battleltomless faction the allegiance ability (and with it the magic lore, artifacts, commandtraits) of an faction owning a battletome, will be a very big mess.

think of a skaven verminus/Moulder army using the deepkins allegiance rule and with it the whole magical lore.

it sounds great but it really isn’t t at least for the guy playing against something like this.

As for your third and last idea,

it is probably the most reasonable and also a great idea. (from my perpesctive)

anyways

if your looking for some ideas, have a look at the t3 tabletop tournament websites. You might find there some informed inspiration of how other people or clubs make  their tournaments,

and what their demands are.

anyways good luck to you and happy wargaming.

 

(Ps: if your tournament is being held in skavenblight or near it, call me??)

 

telephone number: +13 31 169 26 13

 

 

 

Edited by Skreech Verminking
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On 27 July 2018 at 4:22 PM, Dead Scribe said:

1)  thats what I'd prefer.

2) I don't like that.  

3)  I wouldn't like that.

4)  which I don't like.

5) I don't want to have different lists for different events.

6) This kind of goes against the "tournament" definition to me.

The use of the word tournament kind of throws me off though.

 

Do you see how all your (un constructive) criticism is based on your own (niche) perspective of what a tournament should or shouldn't be.

This thread isn't about you, it's about @JackStreicher and his/her tournament, your viewpoint comes across as incredibly narrow minded and inexperienced considering the large variety of styles of tournaments there was in WHFB and there is now in AoS.

 

From attending many tournaments my advice for @JackStreicher would be keep it clear and simple for the attendees, make sure what your trying to achieve is communicated and presented clearly, that way expectations are met. Get as much feedback as possible after the event too.

For what it's worth it sounds like a cool event, good luck!

Edited by MOMUS
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this maybe a stupid question, as no one here plays non battle tome factions. But what do they spend their CP on,  they have no command abilities and no artefacts to take. So is it just for re-rolls?Doesn't seem like much of a help or a balancing vs most battle tome armies. Maybe just leave them the way they are, and not give returning players the false ideas about how the game works?

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4 hours ago, blueshirtman said:

this maybe a stupid question, as no one here plays non battle tome factions. But what do they spend their CP on,  they have no command abilities and no artefacts to take. So is it just for re-rolls?Doesn't seem like much of a help or a balancing vs most battle tome armies. Maybe just leave them the way they are, and not give returning players the false ideas about how the game works?

There are 3 command abilities available in the rules to all heroes,  and many non battle tome armies also have artifacts.

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On 7/27/2018 at 10:11 AM, JackStreicher said:

Same goes for Nagash lists. Any idea on how to regulate such things?

I'm not sure what your level of experience is, so forgive me if this comes across in the wrong way.

 

You appear the be about to make the same mistake many, many event organizers have made in the past.

Namely, thinking you need to make the system your own as if you know more about it than the designers and playtesters.  It's well-meaning, but not needed. Trust in the system and allow the players to adapt to it, grow with it, and master it. They don't need a TO to "fix" it for them. Have faith in the players and the game they love enough to play at your event!

As pointed out in the most recent Garage hammer by one of the playtesters, who also happens to run one of the biggest, most successful AoS events in the world (Adepticon), Nagash (for example) can be handled within the system. Shoot him! Here's doing well at this second because people are over reacting to the new rules and not just shooting him.  Good players know this and are currently taking advantage. That's not the game's fault, it's the players'. Don't preemptively adjust a system that already has checks and balances in place. Let the players learn!

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On 7/27/2018 at 10:22 AM, Dead Scribe said:

 

6) winning doesn't mean you win.  This kind of goes against the "tournament" definition to me.

I think if you change this to be a narrative event, that I'd have no problem with any of it.  The use of the word tournament kind of throws me off though.

Amen. Words have meaning. Don't call it a tournament if you aren't making it one.

Edited by Sleboda
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Reading your post I wonder if you're not really after making a tournament and if your intention is the make the game more well known, more popular and to also protect newbies a little from super powerful tournament lists - DON'T run a tournament.

 

A Tournament is the kind of thing you run when you've got a local population (or a non local one if its big enough) to challenge them to perform their best. To take  good armies; to play paint and model as best they can. In a healthy environment you'll get a few that rise to the top and the rest go for a good day  of generally battling each other and showing off their armies.

 

I think what you might find better is to instead do an escalation league. Ergo instead of trying to get the local scene active with a big 2K tournament, which is only going to attract already existing players; you instead run a series of narrative to competitive events based around steadily increasing the points level every two weeks or week or so. So run an event each week and every couple increase the points value. This helps newbies get into the game and encourages the local scene to build up armies. 

The experienced just bring a portion of their collection, whilst those new bring what they've got as it expands and you can tailor the expansion to how well people are building things up. Ergo if everyone is building faster ramp up the points faster and vis versa. You can even mix it up with painting and assembly events so that there's times when newer players can get introductions into how best to assemble and paint.

 

That is far more conductive to growing the local scene and gives you a string of events not just one solo event. You can lead it all up to a big tournament at the end if you want. 

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On 7/28/2018 at 5:50 PM, MOMUS said:

Do you see how all your (un constructive) criticism is based on your own (niche) perspective of what a tournament should or shouldn't be.

This thread isn't about you, it's about @JackStreicher and his/her tournament, your viewpoint comes across as incredibly narrow minded and inexperienced considering the large variety of styles of tournaments there was in WHFB and there is now in AoS.

Oh I'm sorry.  I thought by asking for feedback he was asking for feedback, not asking for positive reinforcement or an echo chamber. 

I have several ideas concerning restrictions in army building etc. and wanted to ask for some input and feedback.

Had he just posted a random tid bit in another thread about his tournament that he was running and I'd responded without being asked for feedback, you'd definitely have a point.  As it is... he asked for input and feedback.   Not a positive reinforcement echo chamber.

Edited by Dead Scribe
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5 hours ago, Overread said:

Reading your post I wonder if you're not really after making a tournament and if your intention is the make the game more well known, more popular and to also protect newbies a little from super powerful tournament lists - DON'T run a tournament.

 

It's that exactly. It's just called a Tournament due to the actual organizer calls it that (I am just in for setting the rules and all since he doesn't know AoS yet)

It's more like an amateur tournament setting some rules straight for people to get interested in AoS (especially those who got sour at GW when they killed off WHF). I've been trying to establish a AoS Community in my area for half a year now, AoS 2 is the first time I see a chance of people joining in. 

As I've done a lot of introduction games people are easily put off when  playing their old armies against a BT army "This is totally unbalanced", "this game sucks", "I'll rather stay with 9th age". - As much as even some of those people love (or used to love) the competetive scene, having a competetive tournament would be nothing but destructive - seal clubbing (also  as some might have noticed I am against powergaming for many reasons).

 

?

Edited by JackStreicher

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3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

It's that exactly. It's just called a Tournament due to the actual organizer calls it that (I am just in for setting the rules and all since he doesn't know AoS yet)

It's more like an amateur tournament setting some rules straight for people to get interested in AoS (especially those who got sour at GW when they killed off WHF). I've been trying to establish a AoS Community in my area for half a year now, AoS 2 is the first time I see a chance of people joining in. 

As I've done a lot of introduction games people are easily put off when  playing their old armies against a BT army "This is totally unbalanced", "this game sucks", "I'll rather stay with 9th age". - As much as even some of those people love (or used to love) the competetive scene, having a competetive tournament would be nothing but destructive - seal clubbing (also  as some might have noticed I am against powergaming for many reasons).

 

?

Stick to your guns and get feedback from the players, if they have fun they'll tell their mates and come again.

If competitive players can't win a game without using Nagash or some other big boo boo then they're not really that competitive. 

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