Restrictions for a small Tournament

[gjnoronh]

Whether you call it a tournament or not if you want to include narrative elements try out the We Are the Neon website.

 

https://wearetheneon.com/

 

A Narrative one day event is a great way to introduce folks to a more structured but not hard core tournament setting AoS 

[JackStreicher]

Alright. I managed to write down all of the rules (in German) I'll send it through Google Translate in Order to save me about an hour or formatting and translating. 

The first people have registered.

 

Score and game type
Age of Sigmar 2.0
Battlehost - 2000 pts
Matched play

story
In Aqshy, at the foot of the Himmelsheim peaks, lay the lost city of Lion's Forge. It was a city on the rise, known for its arcane blacksmiths, skilled dwarf artisans who crafted the strongest and most magnificent  armors from all exotic metals Aqshy could offer. The city's observatory allowed the highborn and magically adapted short glimpses of a possible bright future or the deep abyss of their decline. However, Lion's Forge was regarded by other cities as a stained jewel, due to a notorious thieves' guild secretly controlled the city's commerce and politicians, hoarding riches hidden beneath the copplestone streets. As chaos swept over the mortal realms and Sigmar locked the gates to Azyr, Lion's Forge was helplessly exposed to the storm of Chaos. Out of desperation, the Lord Magister tried to hide the entire city from the invading forces with dwarven runes and magic, but the plan had a flaw. Instead of disappearing for several years, the city remained lost for centuries, until now. Nagash's machinations and the resulting Necroquake released untold amounts of magical energies that ripped Lion's Forge back to reality. The city, lonely and faded, presumably abandoned sits at the foot of the Himmelsheim peaks, waiting to be claimed. However, magical aftershocks still tremble the land, causing magical disturbances. Sudden darkness, winds of death magic and clouds of smoke and steam now stand between Lion's Forge and anyone who wants to call it his own.

Allowed rules
- Compendium units (for example, a Dreadlord on Drakespawn can team with all Dark Elf splinter factions, the same applies to Wood Elves and Wanderers, etc.).
- Malign Sorcery.
- Firestorm Allegiances.
- Allegiance Abilities.
- Warscroll Battalions.
- Endless spells.
All current Battletomes.
Only the latest versions of Warscrolls.

Bases
Round and corner bases are allowed so that even old armies can be played easily.

limitations
Seraphon lists may contain a maximum of two   engines of the gods.

General's Handbook faction bonus
GHB factions (not the Grand Alliances) will also receive +1 Command Point at the start of the game.
The Tomb Kings and Bretons alliance also receives an additional artifact (that is, they have access to a total of 2 artifacts)

procedure
Every army knows all spells from Aqshy (no matter which realm the scenario has).
There are 3 scenarios played (see below).
Final award of the three winners and dissolution which Grand Alliance Victorious took the city.

scenarios
Game 1: Border War (Corebook 2018) "Realm of Battle: Shyish" - Magic: Aqshy.
Game 2: Escalation (Corebook 2018) "Realm of Battle: Ulgu" - Magic: Aqshy.
Game 3: Geomantic Sites - (GHB 2018) Change: Only Heroes and Giants can take on the mission objectives, "Realm of Battle: Aqshy" - Magic: Aqshy.

Victory!
The best three players are chosen.
In addition, every Grand Alliance can win.
That Although there is the best player (s), that does not mean that their group has won the tournament!

The winning score of the players runs over points which are composed as follows:
Points for the victory
+ Points for sportsmanship, scored by the opponent
+ Bonus points for a small story, which is handed out together with the army list (2 lines suffice). The story should briefly outline how your own army came to this battlefield and what their goals are there.

Grand Alliance Victory Ranking is based on the total number of games won: number of GA players.
Victories of the GA result in smaller bonuses for upcoming tournaments and influence their scenarios.

 

 

[TheOtherJosh]

@JackStreicher If you’re giving Tomb Kings and Bretons an additional artefact, what about other factions that don’t have Battalions?

Why not just go “all-in” and give any faction that doesn’t have an available Pitched Battle Battalion an additional artefact? (I don’t feel that is a good idea, but only doing this for the Breton and Tomb Kings seems oddly specific, and playing favorites.)

[JackStreicher]

37 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

@JackStreicher If you’re giving Tomb Kings and Bretons an additional artefact, what about other factions that don’t have Battalions?

Why not just go “all-in” and give any faction that doesn’t have an available Pitched Battle Battalion an additional artefact? (I don’t feel that is a good idea, but only doing this for the Breton and Tomb Kings seems oddly specific, and playing favorites.)

Because the entire armies of TK and Bretonnians plainly sucks ^^ they‘re the worst armies right now ^^

[TheOtherJosh]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Because the entire armies of TK and Bretonnians plainly sucks ^^ they‘re the worst armies right now ^^

I ... don’t completely agree with you.

They didn’t end up with any points changes between prior GHB edition and this edition. And from a Grand Alliance army perspective they’re no worse off than any other GA army.

They have access to the same realm Artefacts and Spells as everyone else does.

Artificially giving them an additional artefact, when you’re not doing the same for other armies without Battalions has a “let’s play favorites because we feel that you should get a bonus”  and is likely going to end up with calls for the same treatment by other armies that don’t have battalions.

If this is to make the players “feel better because they have old armies” I don’t really see how giving them an additional Artefact will fix their issue about being “the worst armies”.

[JackStreicher]

55 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

I ... don’t completely agree with you.

They didn’t end up with any points changes between prior GHB edition and this edition. And from a Grand Alliance army perspective they’re no worse off than any other GA army.

They have access to the same realm Artefacts and Spells as everyone else does.

Artificially giving them an additional artefact, when you’re not doing the same for other armies without Battalions has a “let’s play favorites because we feel that you should get a bonus”  and is likely going to end up with calls for the same treatment by other armies that don’t have battalions.

If this is to make the players “feel better because they have old armies” I don’t really see how giving them an additional Artefact will fix their issue about being “the worst armies”.

The artifact is supposed to compensate for their crappy and overpriced units.

they get the bonus since they‘re a complete army with no Allegiance abilities =]. Once you use them as allies order/death they lose the additional artifact.

if people demand to get an additional artifact I‘ll consider it =} so far we only have LoN, Aelfes and Breyherds as faction ^^ (no TK or Brets expected)

[JackStreicher]

The tournament went well. My DoK scored second.

The next tournament will be set at 1500 pats and named Charakters will be restricted to max 230 points since the way too many builds focused on 2-4 named Charakters.

Brets and TK did not take part.

=}

[JackStreicher]

After the last one being a success I‘ll go a step further with the next Event (narrative / semi competetive event):

No named heroes

Every unit only once excluding non-conditional Battleline

all deepstrikes must occur by the end of turn one.

max 40 Witch Elves (including Sisters of Slaughter) and max 50 Skeletons

Including: Realm Items, Realm Features and one table with a giant Fortress.

The Battle will rage within Lion‘s Forge this time:

Sewers, Streets, Citadel with the observatory

creative and fun ideas are welcome!

[Future]

The unit maxes are interesting. For a narrative type event I could see it being ok. Curious why the restricted blocks are so specific. Engine of the gods restriction for instance. Seraphon aren't exactly known for doing well in tournamnets, or even ok in most cases.

 

Why not go further and restrict max evocator counts, max deepkin eel count, max grimghast reaper count, max any armies primary 'spammy' meta unit. By isolating what is restricted I would feel very targeted as the 'player with skeletons'. I'm all for house rules in the spirit of fun but very specific rules might make a player feel targeted which is unfun. 

[Yoshiya]

Yea, the maxes seem weird, especially in a narrative event. What if, as a Idoneth player, I wanted to play an all ahkelian army as a narrative with multiple Allopexes. They're considered overpointed as a general rule but they fit the theme perfectly and yet I'd be limited to a unit of three most rather than say, three units of one each etc.

Additionally, what about a Vanguard chamber of Stormcast. The vanguard battleline is seen as the weakest option in the book yet you would be forcing them to take unnarrative, more point effective liberators.

[Deadkitten]

My guess is that the maxes are a reaction to issues in their specific meta.  It's a local TO catering to a diverse crowd of new, returning and experienced players.  There's a lot going on there.  The introduction of 1 or 2 other players could change the meta, and thus the event, dramatically.

What I find super interesting is that even in this small meta, they've zeroed in on two of the top tier armies.  I think there's broad recognition that these factions will see changes in GHB2019.  This is a group that's just going to make some changes sooner rather than later.

 

[Hot Peanut]

We have done 3 tournaments in our gaming group (6 players), and we always played with all rules. Why not cut them down to something wich should be fair for everyone is not possible and to be honest it is fun. Sometimes there is an army which is very strong but it is ok.

[Skreech Verminking]

On 2/6/2019 at 2:02 AM, JackStreicher said:

After the last one being a success I‘ll go a step further with the next Event (narrative / semi competetive event):

No named heroes

Every unit only once excluding non-conditional Battleline

all deepstrikes must occur by the end of turn one.

max 40 Witch Elves (including Sisters of Slaughter) and max 50 Skeletons

Including: Realm Items, Realm Features and one table with a giant Fortress.

The Battle will rage within Lion‘s Forge this time:

Sewers, Streets, Citadel with the observatory

creative and fun ideas are welcome!

Sounds interesting.

good luck then👍🏻

[Ruhraffe]

On 2/6/2019 at 2:02 AM, JackStreicher said:

No named heroes

Every unit only once excluding non-conditional Battleline

You'd loose me as a Sylvaneth player right there. You seriously hamper my ability to take batallions, like I could not play dreadwood because I need conditional battlelines for the Outcast batallion. With your restrictions the only list I can play is dumping 80 dryads on the table and play Winterleaf or Harvestboon.  And besides the technical restrictions: I'd be really sad to leave my centerpiece Alarielle I put hours over hours into at home, just because she has a name. 

 

Calling this even semi-competitve is a joke.

[Sedraxis]

Limiting specific units is a bit tough because where will you draw the line? Maybe a cap to models for units equal to their max unit size and 2 - 3 models for those with no max size?

No named characters is something I can get behind because they are responsible for some extreme abilities.

Another thing I'd like to try is no deep strikes in the first round (unless an ability states it specifically needs to be used in the first round). This did miracles for 40k when the meta revolved around it and I think it will make for some interesting tactical choices.

 

[JackStreicher]

10 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

Limiting specific units is a bit tough because where will you draw the line? Maybe a cap to models for units equal to their max unit size and 2 - 3 models for those with no max size?

No named characters is something I can get behind because they are responsible for some extreme abilities.

Another thing I'd like to try is no deep strikes in the first round (unless an ability states it specifically needs to be used in the first round). This did miracles for 40k when the meta revolved around it and I think it will make for some interesting tactical choices.

 

I agree on the deepstrike part.
The restriction ist simply to prevent s.o. spamming 90 Witch elves, 60 Dire wolves etc. Some factions might lose battallions due to it, but that's still better than being rofl-stomped by a tournament gamer-netlist.

Also no 4 Celestar Ballistas with a ordinator which will create an unplesasant experience.

 

@Ruhraffe I know, but there are too many really broken combos plus you'd see the same list every time: Nagash + sth., Morathi + sth. Gavriel Sureheart + Something, skargrot + sth. I really hate that. 😃

[Mutter]

I'd almost wager a bet that you're situated in Germany, right?

Us Germans always loved us some comphammer, instead of the real McCoy.  🙄

[JackStreicher]

3 minutes ago, Mutter said:

I'd almost wager a bet that you're situated in Germany, right?

Us Germans always loved us some comphammer, instead of the real McCoy.  🙄

=D
I am just generally of the opinion that GW Games in a comp. environment are as unfun and unbalanced as it can get =D
That's why it's more of a narrative event.

[Ruhraffe]

But then, please don't call it semi-competitive. If you leave out vast parts of the gameplay, you cannot call it competitive. Thats like competitive football, but you can't play a pass further then 10 meters and may not shoot harder then 80 km/h. This is not semicompetitive, this is a weird little game for fun. Maybe, if synergies annoy you, this might not be a suitable game for your tournament. Please, do not take this as offensive, but combos and synergies are a biiig part of listbuilding and the reason we don't enter our collection into a program and click on randomize. 

Even if you reduce the number of points, some army will be imba and some weak. Thats just something thats inherent to the game.

My advice would be to make this a narrative only event and really think about a fluffy reason why there are no big heroes on the board, or ask the participants for a fluffy, non-competitive list and let them send it in berforehand, so you can decide if the list may be to strong. But, honestly, thats further and further away from a tournament. Maybe you should call this a gaming night, or something. 

Sorry for the incoherent rambling. My thoughts evolved while writing and I don't want to go over the text again.

[JackStreicher]

30 minutes ago, Ruhraffe said:

But then, please don't call it semi-competitive. If you leave out vast parts of the gameplay, you cannot call it competitive. Thats like competitive football, but you can't play a pass further then 10 meters and may not shoot harder then 80 km/h. This is not semicompetitive, this is a weird little game for fun. Maybe, if synergies annoy you, this might not be a suitable game for your tournament. Please, do not take this as offensive, but combos and synergies are a biiig part of listbuilding and the reason we don't enter our collection into a program and click on randomize. 

Even if you reduce the number of points, some army will be imba and some weak. Thats just something thats inherent to the game.

My advice would be to make this a narrative only event and really think about a fluffy reason why there are no big heroes on the board, or ask the participants for a fluffy, non-competitive list and let them send it in berforehand, so you can decide if the list may be to strong. But, honestly, thats further and further away from a tournament. Maybe you should call this a gaming night, or something. 

Sorry for the incoherent rambling. My thoughts evolved while writing and I don't want to go over the text again.

It's still competetive though with changed meta that way (as mentioned before) the armies will differ from the usual netlists.

GW generally is very bad at producing balanced games. Other companies manage to (aSoIaF, 9th age) but GW doesn't actually try, they want to sell models, period.

It's still a tournament, which tells a story while avoiding most unpleasant and boring games due to army comp. It requires players to actually rethink their strategy.

[Melcavuk]

Max of 1 of each unit except non conditional battleline does more to harm themed armies than neccesarily shape competitive ones. You rule out a mounted Idoneth force, actually playing vanguard chamber (never been considered competitive), squiggy gloomspite etc When introducing and expanding players experience with AoS renegating most factions to repeats of the same core unit doesnt really teach them about the game but a very small, very specific subsect they are likely to never actually encounter (Mainly liberator stormcast etc) 

[JackStreicher]

14 minutes ago, Melcavuk said:

Max of 1 of each unit except non conditional battleline does more to harm themed armies than neccesarily shape competitive ones. You rule out a mounted Idoneth force, actually playing vanguard chamber (never been considered competitive), squiggy gloomspite etc When introducing and expanding players experience with AoS renegating most factions to repeats of the same core unit doesnt really teach them about the game but a very small, very specific subsect they are likely to never actually encounter (Mainly liberator stormcast etc) 

Exactly, you won't encounter these lists in normal tournaments. Units that might never see the light of day will likely be played and it will be very different and way more reliant on new strategies 😃 

The meta is afterall just a temporary powerspike of an army or a unit that's too strong at the moment.  This meta will be completely unknown to all players and it will create a completely new experience.

About the eels: I play Idoneth myself and making eel spam illegal is intentional as well as any other spam. If you want to play a lot of eels you have to play large units which are vulnerable to battleshock. So should you rather spent your CP on more DMG output or save them up for Battleshocks?

[Melcavuk]

I specifically wasnt talking about Meta, I am by no stretch a competitive player who follows meta or cares what the more recent netlist was. My point was very specifically about theme, especially in factions who only have conditional battleline options you're essentially saying theme means next to nothing as you MUST take 1 of this, 1 of this, 1 of this, looking at beastclaw here you're saying they can only ever take one pack of mournfangs? So essentially you must field only behemoths in a beastclaw force and will never win an objective because your cheaper objective holding units are limited to one on the field maximum. What the restriction does is promote new battletome, higher unit roster armies to the point where they will dominate limited selection armies off of the field, outright killing some smaller subfactions who dont have the roster of non-conditional battlelines to even play an army at this stage due to the restrictions whilst (weirdly) promoting tomb kings and brettonians as a wave to old worlders over those who constructed Age of Sigmar armies.

The arbitrary restrictions on Witch Aelves/Skeletons do not seem in line with each other either, 50 skeletons is by no means a match for 40 witch aelves, so if you're aiming to stop either hitting critical mass witch aelves need to be max 20 or 30.

Edit: We also seem to have very different definition of Spam, "More than 1" is an odd choice to define it, especially with conditional battleline choices that let you theme an army.

[Nos]

So long as it’s apparent to anyone who pays or signs up beforehand what the rules and restrictions are, so there’s no nasty surprises or misunderstandings, then do what you want!

It’s up for individuals to decide if they like the ethos and implementation behind your event. It will be apparent to anyone familiar with the game that games will play quite a bit differently. It’s up to them if they want that. If they do I’m sure they’ll thank you for the opportunity, and if they don’t, well they can play pretty much anywhere else for a more traditional experience.

Just be transparent, then it’s completely up to other people to make an informed choice. 

[Retro]

On 2/6/2019 at 2:02 AM, JackStreicher said:

After the last one being a success I‘ll go a step further with the next Event (narrative / semi competetive event):

No named heroes

Every unit only once excluding non-conditional Battleline

all deepstrikes must occur by the end of turn one.

max 40 Witch Elves (including Sisters of Slaughter) and max 50 Skeletons

Including: Realm Items, Realm Features and one table with a giant Fortress.

The Battle will rage within Lion‘s Forge this time:

Sewers, Streets, Citadel with the observatory

creative and fun ideas are welcome!

Have you considered maybe changing it to "every unit only once, except battleline" then putting a cap on total points spent on a single unit type? 

Maybe 500 points?