AoS 2 - Archaon / Everchosen Discussion

[Xasz]

@Chris Tomlin

Maybe it sounded harder than it should. 

****** happens, and from my experience the vast majority of list-building mistakes are just that, genuine mistakes. When there is questionable behaviour, it usually happens at the table, where the orga is not present.

Personally, I'm a fan of open lists when the tournament reaches a certain size (30+). The player check each other and it takes a load off the organizers.

Back to topic.

The Tzeentch list is interesting, it seems to target specificallyt the LoN lists with Nagash. 

I wonder how many centerpiece models he got into the sword throughout the event.

[Chris Tomlin]

@Xasz - No I don't think you sounded harsh or anything at all. Definitely well handled as it can be a sensitive matter. I just wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea about Nige as he's a stand up guy. As you say, mistakes happen. All good  

With regards to Slayer of Kings tales from BLACKOUT, @Ben diesel (who finished lower down) had a pretty epic game with his Archaon in Places of Arcane Power. He was able to use his opponents Feculent Gnarlmaws (I believe!) as well as some buffs and destiny dice to travel something stupid like 31", charging into a Great Unclean One and another wizard on turn 1! In typical Diesel fashion he was able to split his 4 Slayer of Kings attacks and auto kill both enemy heroes!! I think he did burn through most of his (crazy good) destiny dice here, but it essentially won him the game as I don't think the opponent was able to contest the objectives after this point.

Mental.

[Drib]

3 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

@Xasz - No I don't think you sounded harsh or anything at all. Definitely well handled as it can be a sensitive matter. I just wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea about Nige as he's a stand up guy. As you say, mistakes happen. All good  

With regards to Slayer of Kings tales from BLACKOUT, @Ben diesel (who finished lower down) had a pretty epic game with his Archaon in Places of Arcane Power. He was able to use his opponents Feculent Gnarlmaws (I believe!) as well as some buffs and destiny dice to travel something stupid like 31", charging into a Great Unclean One and another wizard on turn 1! In typical Diesel fashion he was able to split his 4 Slayer of Kings attacks and auto kill both enemy heroes!! I think he did burn through most of his (crazy good) destiny dice here, but it essentially won him the game as I don't think the opponent was able to contest the objectives after this point.

Mental.

Splitting the attacks is not a valid move for the Slayer of Kings attacks:

"The Slayer of Kings: If Archaon directs 
all of his attacks with the Slayer of Kings 
at the same HERO or MONSTER, and 
two or more of the wound rolls are 6 or 
more, the daemon bound in the blade is 
roused and the target is slain instantly!"

[Xasz]

1 hour ago, Drib said:

Splitting the attacks is not a valid move for the Slayer of Kings attacks:

"The Slayer of Kings: If Archaon directs 
all of his attacks with the Slayer of Kings 
at the same HERO or MONSTER, and 
two or more of the wound rolls are 6 or 
more, the daemon bound in the blade is 
roused and the target is slain instantly!"

He split Archaons and Dorghars attacks between those two models, not the Slayer of King's.

[Drib]

1 hour ago, Xasz said:

He split Archaons and Dorghars attacks between those two models, not the Slayer of King's.

 

Quote

[...] was able to split his 4 Slayer of Kings attacks and auto kill both enemy heroes!! 

[Chris Tomlin]

Maybe I misunderstood the story (actually makes it a much more likely story in hindsight tbh!)...or maybe they did play it incorrectly. It was on about table 44/49 and they were both having fun with it (everyone loves a giggly Diese), so meh! Might've been vs @RuneBrush's brother Chris actually!!

Either way its a shame, I loved the idea of the double kill! Why did you have to ruin our fun by quoting rules @Drib Haha  

[Xasz]

I'm rather sure that he did what I described, makes it a bit less awesome but it's unlikely that two chaos players would forget about Archaon's rules at the same time. 

[RuneBrush]

41 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Maybe I misunderstood the story (actually makes it a much more likely story in hindsight tbh!)...or maybe they did play it incorrectly. It was on about table 44/49 and they were both having fun with it (everyone loves a giggly Diese), so meh! Might've been vs @RuneBrush's brother Chris actually!!

Either way its a shame, I loved the idea of the double kill! Why did you have to ruin our fun by quoting rules @Drib Haha  

Yup, it was my brother - very much a case of "what the hell just happened!"   Regardless of rules think the outcome was pretty much assured with the first turn charge - just was missing the "Archaon Smash" tagline!

[Kurrilino]

On 7/25/2018 at 2:37 AM, kurtces said:

It's expensive, it's true, but with this guy you can get easily 33 contagion points in the third turn and summon a lot of deamons.

I don't tested him. Has someone tested him in a battle?

And how would someone be able to do this ???

Without Battalion he can set up exactly 1 Tree. And even if i have 3 Trees, how do i add up to 33 points ?

[Revan123]

I found this strategy recently, but was not able to test it properly yet, but on paper it looks at least a bit interesting. I am trying to fit Archaon into Nurgle and Khorne's lists and now I decided to take a bit from here and there. 

Archaon (General)

GUO (bilesword and massive blade)

30xPlaguebearers 

30xPlaguebearers 

5xChaos Warriors (mark of Nurgle)

Allies 

Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut 

Bloodstoker

So, the plan here is making the mix of struggle army with Archaon, who is killing every hero or monster on two wound rolls of 4+ (because of turning the weel of Nurgle and Lord of Khorne command ability). He have rerolling one's to wound because of bloodstocker, +3 to his charge or run rolls and, more over, it is possible to plant 2 Feculent Gnarlmaw around the field, so he have a solid chance to get somewhere. 

In our current meta in Russia the most powerful lists are around Nagash and Fyreslayers with two squads of 30 man (shooty or choppy), but the rest can be a good match up. Also I was thinking about Keeper of Secret as allie, who can benefit Archaon with ability to fight twice

[Drib]

Spoiler

22 minutes ago, Revan123 said:

I found this strategy recently, but was not able to test it properly yet, but on paper it looks at least a bit interesting. I am trying to fit Archaon into Nurgle and Khorne's lists and now I decided to take a bit from here and there. 

Archaon (General)

GUO (bilesword and massive blade)

30xPlaguebearers 

30xPlaguebearers 

5xChaos Warriors (mark of Nurgle)

Allies 

Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut 

Bloodstoker

So, the plan here is making the mix of struggle army with Archaon, who is killing every hero or monster on two wound rolls of 4+ (because of turning the weel of Nurgle and Lord of Khorne command ability). He have rerolling one's to wound because of bloodstocker, +3 to his charge or run rolls and, more over, it is possible to plant 2 Feculent Gnarlmaw around the field, so he have a solid chance to get somewhere. 

In our current meta in Russia the most powerful lists are around Nagash and Fyreslayers with two squads of 30 man (shooty or choppy), but the rest can be a good match up. Also I was thinking about Keeper of Secret as allie, who can benefit Archaon with ability to fight twice

 

You need one more Nurgle Unit to use the Gnarlmaw/Nurgle Allegience, as you are at 2/7 allied units.

[Revan123]

Yes, you right, thank you. 

Archaon (General)

GUO (bilesword and massive blade, Witherstave)

30xPlaguebearers 

30xPlaguebearers 

5xChaos Warriors (mark of Nurgle)

Allies 

Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut 

Endless spell - Chromatic Cogs 

This will compensate the lack of +3 to charge rolls and also can provide rerolls to save for Archaon or GUO, depending on situation. 

[Xasz]

Had my first game with Archaon and the following list.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Nurgle

Leaders
Archaon (660)
- General
- Lore of Virulence: Glorious Afflictions
The Glottkin (420)
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
Harbinger of Decay (160)
- Artefact: The Witherstave 
Lord of Blights (140)
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (160)
- Runestaff
- Lore of Foulness: Plague Squall

Battleline
40 x Chaos Marauders (200)
- Axes & Shields
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117

Opponent brought Free Peoples (my first game against them as well) and we called it at the end of turn 3 or 4, as I controlled the middle section of the board from turn 1, which is quite devastating in Shifting Objectives.

I had a lot of fun but I made a couple unnecessary mistakes, that almost cost me the game. 

For starters, I took the first turn because I was somewhat intimidated by his gun line and the mental scars from my 40k days told me I absolutely had to activate my buffs before he could act. On closer inspection his range was far shorter than I anticipated and forcing him to move first would have been a lot better. (like it pretty much always is in AoS)

The biggest one was splitting Archaon and the Glottkin from the rest of the army too soon (turn 2, to clear his weaker flank). Combined with my hesitation to move my Harbinger offensively, I ended up taking a lot more wounds than I should have. The Glottkin died way too soon and Archaon  prayed to all gods to not lose his last couple wounds for the rest of the game. In retrospect, there was no reason to always try to hide the Harbinger. He can take way more punishment than I gave him credit for in the heat of the moment. (Played almost exclusively Khorne beforehand, Bloodsecrator mentality and stuff)

There were some smaller mistakes, as I didn't have my cheat-sheet ready for the game but we had fun and I really liked Archaon. Sadly I couldn't try the Geminids (first turn not in range, second and third I failed to cast...). Plague Squall + Cycle of Corruption (5 into 6 and reset to 5) on the other hand was just awesome and is pretty much the reason I want to stay Nurgle allegiance. (his General with Banner had one wound left after turn 2 hero phase)

I'll play this list a couple more times, to get a feeling for the whole concept but currently I have a hunch that I don't care a whole lot about the Glottkin. He seems like the weakest link in all of it and a second unit of Marauders to clog up another objective might be better. Casting on a 7+ without access to any kind of boost just feels unreliable and dicey.  I might be wrong though and I'm in no rush to change everything up after one game.

If I go down the Marauder route though, I'll have to find an alternative for the normal Marauders models, as assembling them was just maddening due to the frequency of warped plastic and mold lines. (thinking about converting 40k Poxwalkers)

Turn one and end of game pictures:

[Lightbox]

Recently picked up Archaon so plan to start using him a lot more, already seeing some nice synergy with khorne generals but It's hard to mix heroes/synergy units with boots on the ground. Should be able to see how he and the varanguard play tomorrow along with a good amount of 'boots on the ground' to run with him. See whether I need to go more on bodies or buffing him and the varanguard.

 

I've noticed a few lists using lots of marauders or generally low units. Are these designed more for doing summoning for you units? Or just relying on archaon and heroes doing heavy lifting?

 

Also if anyone has sny recommendations for models to use as marauders I'm all ears. I dislike the base ones. Have tried some conversions of mantics basilean sisterhood into stuff more akin to warhammer onlines zealots though that obv works better for tzeentch than some other gods.

[Xasz]

Haven't really thought about combining Archaon with Khorne, at least not all the way. The Bloodstoker and Juggerlord have always been pretty convenient allies for him though. Would be nice to hear what you brought and how the game went!

Concerning Marauders. they are just incredible tar-pits, especially with Nurgle allegiance but there are certainly other ways to play the three eyed king.

I've recently built 40 of those dreaded Marauder models and that's definitely something I'm not doing ever again. If I ever feel the need for another unit, I'll probably follow some suggestions from the interwebz and convert Poxwalkers with some leftover bitz. Other than that or if you are not feeling the nurgly type, maybe corrupted Free Peoples?!?

 

[Lightbox]

Archaon had his first outing today. My list was:

 

-Big Daddy Archaon

-Mighty lord of khorne

-chaos lord on juggernaut

-Bloodsecrator

 

20 bloodreavers

20 bloodreavers

20 marauders

1 chaos spawn

5 chaos warriors

5 blood warriors

3 varanguard (allied)

 

Was an odd but interesting list. The marauders did very well holding an objective against some bleakswords but bad luck saw them removed later. Archaon absolutely fluffed his first lot of attacks pretty much costing me any chance I had of catching up on objectives near the end. We played shifting objectives, a difficult one.

 

His list was:

Anointed on frost pheonix

Sorceress

Archmage

Anointed

 

10 bleakswords

10 darkshards

10 darkshards

5 dragon princes

10 blackguard

10 executioners

5 doomfire warlocks

30 pheonix guard

 

 

Game was actually pretty close but we both made some mistakes. High numbers for me was interesting but had reavers over 12 away from secrator so were on 2 attacks instead of 3 alas. Think trying to get archaons command ability going at 2k is too much, mighty lord of khorne wasn't really worth it. Juggernaut lord was nice though and Varanguard certainly hit hard with Archaon with their spears! I think more blood warriors would do well as they are a solid unit and more resilient than marauder/reaver spam. As a test it went pretty well, i am finding Archaon a bit hard to build with though.

 

Might try him in slaanesh to go with cheap demonettes and get the double attacks from command abilities. He and Varanguard are a fun combo but very expensive in points! Varanguard really need to do well to make up the points with how much they take from other stuff. Archy though can really delete units when he doesn't ****** up his attacks which is nice! 

[Xasz]

Personally, I think Khorne is currently the worst host allegiance/army for Archaon. 

There should be either Slayer of Kings synergy or one with his rather unique command ability. Nurgle has strong synergy with the latter, Slaanesh somewhat with both and Tzeentch destiny dice are just nasty. Khorne on the hand, has very few interesting command abilities, plus Nurgle and Tzeentch can push Archaons attacks or wound rolls in a similar way Khorne can. On top of that, you cannot really squeeze in a Murderhost or Gore Pilgrims alongside him. I found Khorne to be rather reliant on strong battalions in my games.

That being said, someone played this at EGGS:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Khorne

Leaders
Archaon (660)
- General
Wrath Of Khorne Bloodthirster (320)
- Artefact: Mark of the slayer 
Wrath Of Khorne Bloodthirster (320)
Wrath Of Khorne Bloodthirster (320)

Battleline
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92
 

I do not know how far he went, but the idea is interesting.

I'm convinced that the moment Slaanesh gets a battletome, it will offer another and competitive play-style besides Tzeentch and Nurgle. Although it doesn't seem half bad without one either. I've seen a well placed Archaon/Slaanesh list with tons of chariots in recent tournament results.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

Hello you blood, drug, disease and magic crazed heretics!

 

I've been considering picking up Archaon for some time now but have a few questions:

-Can he be taken into any chaos army?

-Does he benefit from his host armies rules due too having every keyword? (for example my main chaos list is currently an undivided STD list, so would he benefit from the rerolls the allegiance grants heroes? And would he extend those buffs to other STD units like other heroes?)

[Xasz]

6 hours ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

-Can he be taken into any chaos army?

-Does he benefit from his host armies rules due too having every keyword? (for example my main chaos list is currently an undivided STD list, so would he benefit from the rerolls the allegiance grants heroes? And would he extend those buffs to other STD units like other heroes?)

Depends on the allegiance you are running.

Archaon has the 4 major chaos gods keywords. Meaning he can be a part of an Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch or Slaanesh army (and Chaos/Everchosen obviously) without being considered an ally.

This wouldn't work if your army runs StD allegiance, as he is missing the appropriate keyword and he's too expensive to be taken as ally (same for Beasts of Chaos and the like).

If he is part of a god-specific army or anyone he shares a keyword with, he'll be able to make use of any allegiance abilities.  Like, he'll get the 2" movement bonus from a Slaanesh Seeker army. (note, Varanguard cannot benefit from allegiance abilities, as they are missing the keywords and must usually be taken as allies. Exception would be an Chaos or Everchosen army.)

Due to Archaon having the god-specific keywords as well as mortal and daemon, he's extremely flexible. Usually pretty much any spell/ability that checks for keywords in his host army works on him.

[Revan123]

Quote

here should be either Slayer of Kings synergy or one with his rather unique command ability. Nurgle has strong synergy with the latter, Slaanesh somewhat with both and Tzeentch destiny dice are just nasty. Khorne on the hand, has very few interesting command abilities, plus Nurgle and Tzeentch can push Archaons attacks or wound rolls in a similar way Khorne can. On top of that, you cannot really squeeze in a Murderhost or Gore Pilgrims alongside him. I found Khorne to be rather reliant on strong battalions in my games.

The problem with Tzeench, that despite Archaon is awesome with their buffs and destiny dice, it is overpriced units. Pinks, skyfires cost too much and can't properly hold objectives. And summoning is not that great, since you take Archaon and he can cast just two spells without aby buffs. So playing against Nagash is terrible. You can't buff anything, skyfires need more bodies to actually kill someone. They rarely can kill a zombie-dragon in one turn and you can't snipe something else in death army. 

For other units I still didn't find a solution, how to combine them with Archaon and it can be competative against horde armies. 

For Nurgle I described before how it works with Archaon, who kills on two 4+ to wound on his sword. 

Slaanesh seemed interesting, but not until battletome will be available. Two units now can buff archaon, so he will fight three times per turn (chaos lord and keeper of secret abilities, if I remember them correctly). 
But I still think that Slaanesh will be not that great compare to Daughters of Khaine, because they can damage properly and suffer through a lot of damage. Slaanesh can do only damage. So why not take Khorne instead then, unless you really like those girls? 

I put Archaon in Khorne list, that have crimson crown around and blobs of bloodletters. But I think I need something else for khorne. I need juggerlord there first and then I need something, that can be tanky. Just for damage Khorne better take Bloodthirster. 

[Xasz]

Yeah, Tzeentch has taken quite the beating over the last couple months.

With Skyfires being changed again, there could be even less Archaon/Tzeentch in the future as they heavily relied on a big unit of them.

Tbh, I don't consider Archaon a damage dealer by default. As I play Nurgle with a lot of Marauders, he's mainly a force-multiplier with enough rules to scare my opponent. But that might just be me, as I'm personally not a friend of those rather one-dimensional lists that charge him asap or focus on him doing well. (although, these lists can be a lot of fun)

[Marauder Mitch]

I am thinking of starting AoS and the army  i am thinking off is roughly Archaon, and Gaunt summoner 12 Varangyr, do you think the list might be a bit 1 dimensiional.  I havent got around to buying any of the models yet.  I feel i am not making the most out of the command abilities though

[Revan123]

Quote

Tbh, I don't consider Archaon a damage dealer by default. As I play Nurgle with a lot of Marauders, he's mainly a force-multiplier with enough rules to scare my opponent. But that might just be me, as I'm personally not a friend of those rather one-dimensional lists that charge him asap or focus on him doing well. (although, these lists can be a lot of fun)

In my list Archaon is paired with GUO and 60 plaguebearers, so he is not only fearsome for opponent, but with buffs (cogs, +1 attack, +2 to wound because of juglord and the wheel of Nurgle) he can be a threat to the opponent's middle line and sometimes even backline. Especially when I put a tree or even two on the field, so he can charge after advance. 

Quote

I am thinking of starting AoS and the army  i am thinking off is roughly Archaon, and Gaunt summoner 12 Varangyr, do you think the list might be a bit 1 dimensiional.  I havent got around to buying any of the models yet.  I feel i am not making the most out of the command abilities though

There is no point of Gaunt Summoner, unless you want to use overlords of chaos batallion. Better take bloodsecrator, give mark mark of khorne to varanguard with spears and enjoy your big amount of attacks. 

Gaunt summoner need a vortex to be good against hordes. And still you will suffer a lot with his spell because of hight leaderships of all death and daemons units.

[Marauder Mitch]

Oh cool, i am trying to fiure out the basis, the  varangyr are the main reason why i am starting AoS though.  I used to be an really aggressive WFB player so i feel this is a good set up

[Revan123]

Quote

Oh cool, i am trying to fiure out the basis, the  varangyr are the main reason why i am starting AoS though.  I used to be an really aggressive WFB player so i feel this is a good set up

The problem of varanguard is the lack of FNP mostly and big cost per wound. So any shooty army will be a big problem, especially Haradrons or Fyreslayers (30 beard faces that drop in front of you with -1 rend shooting). Death is not that problem because they ignore spells on 4+ and they can deal with blobs of skeleton (with spears). But Nighthaunt will be a problem because of their invulnarable save. 

Khorne with letters just smash all of them, unless you will be out of reach somehow. Nurgle will be not that big deal, especially if you will be able to put at least a mystic shield on squad. Tzeench is not a problem, only skyfires will be nasty with mortal wounds and big range. 

The Daughters of Khaine always a walking nightmare, so most of the armies suffer from them. 

For the rest I can't say for sure, can be really good or it will end badly, 

Also there are a problem with scoring objectives of course.