Pistacchio Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Hello everybody, I'm Pistacchio and with a friend of mine we are developing a phone App to simulate a round of combat between two given unit. Basically the user, through a very nice and simple user interface, would have to select two models, set the units sizes, weapons utilized and some other external factors like bonus/malus, rerolls, pile up etc., and then press a button. After a bunch of seconds he would see on the phone a chart representing the distribution of the results of over 100 (or more) simulations between the two selected units. The algorithm of the simulation takes into account every aspect a round of combat, including abilities, champions, standard bearers, phases etc... It really does everything you would do during the game. So, since we are deciding right now wether to keep developing this app or not, we would like to know if people would actually use something like this. Thanks for any kind of feedback you can give us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Since mathhammering/probability is nothing new I'd wager there must be a reason there isn't an app like this on the market already; or a computer program/website somewhere online. This might suggest that either making one is more complex than it first seems or that there are copyright issues (even in a non-profit/free for use application); or that there is just no real market demand for it. Predicting the outcome of encounters is valuable and can help players work out what to and what not to take in games; an app might even make it helpful during games to work out what will and won't be a possible good attack (though I'd say most would frown upon such an app being used during a game if its anything but a casual/beginners game and thus being used as an aid towrad learning) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skabnoze Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Pistacchio said: Basically the user, through a very nice and simple user interface, would have to select two models, set the units sizes, weapons utilized and some other external factors like bonus/malus, rerolls, pile up etc., and then press a button. After a bunch of seconds he would see on the phone a chart representing the distribution of the results of over 100 (or more) simulations between the two selected units. The algorithm of the simulation takes into account every aspect a round of combat, including abilities, champions, standard bearers, phases etc... I would be very careful about this. Building something that does this would require that you populate the app with material that is under GW copyright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistacchio Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 33 minutes ago, Skabnoze said: I would be very careful about this. Building something that does this would require that you populate the app with material that is under GW copyright. What about if all the copyrighted information where to be stored on a sever, where the simulations would run, and the only data that goes on the phone of the user are the models name and some weapons and abilities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebiggesthat Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 It sucks the soul out the game, in my opinion, but I'm sure you'll get interest. Model names are copyrighted dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skabnoze Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 29 minutes ago, Pistacchio said: What about if all the copyrighted information where to be stored on a sever, where the simulations would run, and the only data that goes on the phone of the user are the models name and some weapons and abilities? I'm sure that GW would still have a leg to stand on in regards to taking your app down from the store if they wanted to. Trust me on this, I build software for a living and I work for a company that specifically does brand & IP protection for companies - this includes enforcement in app stores. It would not be hard for someone investigating apps like this to watch the network calls the app makes to get data. I would either look into how you could make something generic that does not require in-depth data for specific unit abilities or else contact GW legal department and see what they say about this app. I expect that if GW gets wind of something like this that they would probably issue take-down requests in the app store. Unfortunately, IP laws generally require companies to aggressively enforce or else risk loss of the IP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skabnoze Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 31 minutes ago, Thebiggesthat said: Model names are copyrighted dude Trademarked - which requires much more aggressive IP enforcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 55 minutes ago, Pistacchio said: What about if all the copyrighted information where to be stored on a sever, where the simulations would run, and the only data that goes on the phone of the user are the models name and some weapons and abilities? I would say that if you are looking for ways to skirt the law, then that should tell you that you shouldn't do it. It didn't stop the awful Army Builder scoundrels, but that doesn't mean you should lower yourself similarly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Sleboda said: I would say that if you are looking for ways to skirt the law, then that should tell you that you shouldn't do it. It didn't stop the awful Army Builder scoundrels, but that doesn't mean you should lower yourself similarly. Are you talking about Battlescribe or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Army Builder. They have a program that requires you to add a data file to customize it to a given system. They only did this after running into legal issues with GW by having all the protected info in their program. Rather than doing the above board thing and respecting the law, they went around it and said "gosh, not our problem now ..." Pretty slimey. And I say that having a buddy who is one of the people contributing to their work (and yes, I'm honest with him about my thoughts on the matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 27 minutes ago, Sleboda said: Army Builder. They have a program that requires you to add a data file to customize it to a given system. They only did this after running into legal issues with GW by having all the protected info in their program. Rather than doing the above board thing and respecting the law, they went around it and said "gosh, not our problem now ..." Pretty slimey. And I say that having a buddy who is one of the people contributing to their work (and yes, I'm honest with him about my thoughts on the matter). Ah, I've only used Battlescribe for 40k and a mix of the Warhammer Community Warscroll Builder and Azyr for AoS. If they ever make something as in depth and good as Battlescribe for 40k and hopefully get Azyr up to that point I'll be quite happy about it. Just little things like showing what your artefact does and command trait without having to tab out of your list and go look it up in a battletome on the same app, etc.. As for this app? I wouldn't use it. I find model vs model simulations to be kind of white room pointless. It doesn't take all the factors into consideration. Sometimes you throw a unit you know is inferior into another for a tactical reason like a tarpit/speed bump to score objectives elsewhere and it's fairly expendable, etc. White Room theorycrafting is kind of a problem in these pen and paper type games, especially DnD. If I see another build asking me to be a warlock and dump darkness on the entire enemy force one more time.... I mean what, my whole party has to optimize around my ****** shtick to even be able to do anything? It's super cool on paper but then the rest of your party just shoves their thumbs up their asses and passes on their turns cuz you've effectively ****** them by trying to show what a l33t build you've got. Same thing with "mathhammer", sometimes it's just not cut and dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syph0n Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Didn't a chap recently post a link to a Mathammer link on the Google Play Store? It lets you enter in the to hit, to wound, rend, rerolls, saves etc for two units and compare. It doesn't let you pick a unit to pre-populate the stats, but as you populate it yourself it's not overly complicated. I know I have it on my phone and I've used it to compare how effective say missile vs melee Corsairs are. Of course, mathammer isn't an exact science but it has its place I'm sure in determining value without spending a fortune on a load of models that may be better/worse than you expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 The main issue is if your opponent starts to take out his cell phone typing something for 3minutes just to say „on second thought I won‘t charge, the odds are against me“. - doesn‘t make for a fun and fluid game. this app might be nice if you quickly want to check your odds while making a list though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Scribe Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 This is a good training piece. There are several in existence right now if you know where to look. This is something everyone that wants to step up their game should be able to do in their head though so something to work toward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 On 7/16/2018 at 1:46 PM, Pistacchio said: What about if all the copyrighted information where to be stored on a sever, where the simulations would run, and the only data that goes on the phone of the user are the models name and some weapons and abilities? Uhm..... the units and the names are exactly what is copyrighted. It's like saying i have a Star Wars games and everything is on the server. The only thing people would see on their phone would be Leia, Han Solo, Luke Skywalker and R2D2 etc... How do you think would Disney and even more important their lawyers argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistacchio Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 Thank you everyone for your feedbacks, of course at the moment our first worry is in fact getting shut down from GW. So, as suggested, we will contact their legal department and see what they think about it. I'll let you know if there's any development! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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