Grimghast reapers vs blade ghiest

[LJ26]

I'm trying to pick a hammer unit in legion of night /sacrament. So it's 15 bladeghiest vs 20 grimghast. What are people's thoughts? To get re rolls for bladeghiest I have to include, at cheapest, a unit of 80pt chainghast which isnt horrible and they get +1 attack on the charge which is great. Grimghast are natively legions of Nagash so don't take up allied pts. But can't retreat and charge. A minus one to hit would also hamper them quite a bit. They are so close in profile I'm leaning towards bladeghiest. What are people's thoughts? 

[Gumbalina]

The grimghast reapers are just flat out better as they can go in unsupported and do well.  The other issue for the bladeghasts is the cost of them is abit high for the unit.  If you can take 30 grimghast reapers as they are cheap and very durable 

[Nevar]

3 hours ago, LJ26 said:

I'm trying to pick a hammer unit in legion of night /sacrament. So it's 15 bladeghiest vs 20 grimghast. What are people's thoughts? To get re rolls for bladeghiest I have to include, at cheapest, a unit of 80pt chainghast which isnt horrible and they get +1 attack on the charge which is great. Grimghast are natively legions of Nagash so don't take up allied pts. But can't retreat and charge. A minus one to hit would also hamper them quite a bit. They are so close in profile I'm leaning towards bladeghiest. What are people's thoughts? 

You are losing potential attacks by taking the Grimghasts however.  45 attacks from 15 Blades, 40 attacks from 20 Grims.  Also, Blades can retreat and charge to play 'hammer' in more than one location and Chainghasts also have ranged attacks to pick off enemy heroes if you bring them for rerolls.  Even still, hitting on 3+ is only slightly worse than hitting on rerolled 4+, and the Grims only get that reroll if the enemy is 5+ models.  Hammer units could be called on to hit multiple enemy units including heroes and support pieces, where they will lose their rerolls against those targets and be objectively worse than the 3+ Blades.

15 unsupported Bladegeists are better than 20 unsupported Grimghast Reapers at being a hammer unit when it comes to versatility and damage potential.  If you bring Chainghasts then they completely outclass the Grims.

The one thing though that has to be taken into account is that Grims are natural LoN units and don't absorb any allied points.  This, in my opinion could make the decision for you.  Is there other allies you want to bring that the Blades will prevent you from bringing?

[swarmofseals]

15 blades charging averages 20 rend 1 damage, while 15 blades not charging (which will be about half the time they are in combat) averages 13.33 rend 1 damage.

Assuming I ignore the death knell for the sake of simplicity, 20 ghasts averages 20 rend 1 damage against targets with 5+ models and 13.33 rend 1 damage against units with fewer than 5 models.

So they aren't really all that different on offense, but the ghasts have 5 more wounds and don't take ally points. 

Of course if you take some Chainghasts the blades get a lot better, but then the comparison isn't really quite fair as you are comparing 350 points of models against 280 points of models. If you instead compare against 30 gheists, then the numbers are:

blades: 26.7 rend 1 charging, 17.8 rend 1 not charging

grimghasts: 30 rend 1 vs 5+ models, 20 rend 1 vs. <5 models

Once you factor in the damage from the Chainghasts themselves it once again evens out reasonably well, particularly considering that it's tougher to get all 30 grimghasts in combat. 

In both scenarios the blades are a bit sleeker and have the added flexibility of retreat and charge while the grimghasts are bulkier and have more defense. Go with whatever you prefer.

Personally I'd take the grimghasts, but that's mostly because I really like taking a unit of 12 myrmourns as allies and taking blades + Chainghasts would prevent that.

[LJ26]

Damn yall made such good arguments it made the decision harder. Since they're so close in what they do I'll  Probably go bladeghiest just because their model is even more dope than the reapers. 

[themortalgod]

The clincher for me is the ability to leave combat and still charge. It makes the unit more interesting to play with and offers more tactical flexibility. Even if statistically they aren't as strong relative to points spent.

I also prefer the warscroll battalion for blades as it makes them significantly stronger while the reaper one is pretty much useless unless facing a death star. 

 

 

 

[AverageBoss]

One other thing in favor of the Grimghasts that has not been mentioned:

2" reach. That is huge, not only allowing you to fight in two ranks, but also to reach things behind your opponents front rank.

[Tunamancer]

2 hours ago, LJ26 said:

 I'll  Probably go bladeghiest just because their model is even more dope than the reapers. 

No one ever accounts for rule of cool in their math hammer for some reason

[Sception]

59 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

One other thing in favor of the Grimghasts that has not been mentioned:

2" reach. That is huge, not only allowing you to fight in two ranks, but also to reach things behind your opponents front rank.

This is a very relevant observation, esp. given the 32mm base size on these units.  Even with only 15 instead of 20 models, you still might have an easier time getting all the grimghasts to swing.

[Nevar]

8 hours ago, themortalgod said:

The clincher for me is the ability to leave combat and still charge. It makes the unit more interesting to play with and offers more tactical flexibility. Even if statistically they aren't as strong relative to points spent.

Yeah... with them being basically the same unit in damage output and durability outside of battalions, I am not sure how people are not just agreeing that Bladegeists are hands down a better option when you have the option.  I agree that they are very much 'side-grade' units in that the Grims give you a lot for cheaper, but the ability to fly coupled with fall back and still charge (especially in NH Allegiance) is pure gold in AoS. 

This is a game of objectives for one, but two with AoS2.0 introducing the command abilities being used by all heroes and synergy support characters and wizards stepping up to take more important places in the battle, being able to hop enemy formations and charge heroes and support pieces, or just disengage from unwanted combat to move somewhere else or even just get to move into range of an objective before charging right back into the same combat is just... so powerful.  Especially on a 'GraveGuardy' elite infantry unit like Bladegeists.

Grims are potentially more efficient per wound caused to the enemy per point... but when it comes to the ebb and flow of the actual battle, the impact Bladegeists can and will have far outstrips the Grims.

This isn't just something in favor of the Blades, I have one full squad of Glaivewraiths as well, even though I hate their models and they are mostly 'meh' on paper.  Can't even begin to tell you how valuable that little drummer boy is.

[ianob]

They are both incredible but perform subtly different roles. Grims are batteline, and catchall, can kill anything efficiently and have more wounds. But they're a unit like any other and can be tarpitted.

Bladegheists can't be tarpitted, fly 8", hit harder, and are better at killing single models. There is massive, massive value in being able to retreat and charge, especially in the new shifting objective missions. 

Basically my advice is not to compare these two units. They're apples and oranges.

[Nevar]

14 minutes ago, ianob said:

They are both incredible but perform subtly different roles. Grims are batteline, and catchall, can kill anything efficiently and have more wounds. But they're a unit like any other and can be tarpitted.

Bladegheists can't be tarpitted, fly 8", hit harder, and are better at killing single models. There is massive, massive value in being able to retreat and charge, especially in the new shifting objective missions. 

Basically my advice is not to compare these two units. They're apples and oranges.

I agree, and think comparing Grimghasts to Chainrasps is a much more apt comparison, as they serve the same battle role.

However, in this instance, the OP is intending to decide between the two as a 'hammer' unit in a non-Nighthaunt list.

[ianob]

4 minutes ago, Nevar said:

I agree, and think comparing Grimghasts to Chainrasps is a much more apt comparison, as they serve the same battle role.

However, in this instance, the OP is intending to decide between the two as a 'hammer' unit in a non-Nighthaunt list.

I dont agree on that comparison either. Apples and Oranges again!

@LJ26 if youre looking to make a decision for LoN, its really going to depend on the rest of your list. If your list is light on objective holding units, then GG will do you better. If you've got plenty of units already that can objective sit/tarpit/etc, then BG might be worth considering. Also 40 points is a very relevant difference when trying to squeeze your lists right now so that's also important to consider.

[Sception]

Eh, more tangerines to oranges.  Again not the same fruit, and different enough that both have their unique niches, but with enough overlap outside of those niches that comparison can still be worthwhile.  You just have to be specific about what you're using them for and the rest of the list when making that comparison.

In a Legion of Nagash list in particular, the fact that Grimghasts aren't allies might not mean much, or it might mean everything.  We still need faq to clearly state one way or the other whether allied units can use gravesite deployment, be healed by gravesites, or be returned to the battlefield via endless legions.

If the answers to those questions turn out to be 'yes', I think Bladegheists might be better as a hammer unit due to the flexibility of withdrawing and charging.  But if the answers to those questions turn out to be 'no', then Grimghasts shoot way ahead imo.

[Nullius]

There’s also the Bladegheist battalion to consider, which gives the unit a 5+ deathless save so long as you can keep their Knight if Shrouds alive. A 4+ unrendable save, followed by a  5+ Ward save is very good. It effectively gives the unit a  3+ invuln (in 40k terms) giving the whole unit effectively storm shields and making them, combined with a bit of summoning, the best defense in the nighthaunt book.

[LJ26]

Here is variation of a list I'm thinking to take to NOVA gt. Heavy spellcasting. Vhordrai is there as a mortal wound / high rend hammer/ carnifex distraction. 30 rasp as anvil /objective holder. 40 skellies as anvil /hammer/objective holder. Wolves as screen /objective grabber. And lastly bladeghiest&chains as another faster hammer. 

Yes I have been playing the allies as getting benefit from all summon able unit stuffs so if that is faqd for sure Its the reapers

[LJ26]

Sorry for the double post 

 

[themortalgod]

6 hours ago, Nevar said:

Yeah... with them being basically the same unit in damage output and durability outside of battalions, I am not sure how people are not just agreeing that Bladegeists are hands down a better option when you have the option.  I agree that they are very much 'side-grade' units in that the Grims give you a lot for cheaper, but the ability to fly coupled with fall back and still charge (especially in NH Allegiance) is pure gold in AoS. 

This is a game of objectives for one, but two with AoS2.0 introducing the command abilities being used by all heroes and synergy support characters and wizards stepping up to take more important places in the battle, being able to hop enemy formations and charge heroes and support pieces, or just disengage from unwanted combat to move somewhere else or even just get to move into range of an objective before charging right back into the same combat is just... so powerful.  Especially on a 'GraveGuardy' elite infantry unit like Bladegeists.

Grims are potentially more efficient per wound caused to the enemy per point... but when it comes to the ebb and flow of the actual battle, the impact Bladegeists can and will have far outstrips the Grims.

This isn't just something in favor of the Blades, I have one full squad of Glaivewraiths as well, even though I hate their models and they are mostly 'meh' on paper.  Can't even begin to tell you how valuable that little drummer boy is.

Exactly, there is so much value in being able to thunder into a giant tarpit then next turn flee THROUGH them and charge what is on the other side.