Nagash, the Supreme Lord of Spellz

[Mephisto]

I was in another thread on these fine forums the other day regarding a discussion on the various ways in which Tzeentch steals your endless spells. I just so happen to run Nagash and am used to him having the spells of other Death Wizards in my army but haven't played the mirror... then I started thinking. Endless Spells are spells other DEATH WIZARDS can know. Does that mean in the mirror match if I'm running Nagash I know the Endless Spells my opponent selected for their Necromancer/Arkhan/Etc? I ordered a GHB2018 and the Core Book but they've not arrived yet for me to check some important wording, but I think it does work that way... and there's no FAQ on it (yet). 

*Cackles in Shyish* Looks like I need to buy a box of Malign Sorcery to keep handy for the mirror match.

[KoalaSnok]

You dont "assign" the endless spells per se, once you pay for it, all wizards in your army know it. But yes, this means Nagash would know the enemy Endless spells too in a mirror matchup.

[Mephisto]

I'm aware of the basic notion that once you pay for the Endless Spell, any Wizard in your army can cast it. This is a good thing for Nagash because he can murder 2 of 3 of your wizards in any order and still know the Endless Spells. I was more curious about the wording on if "they can cast it" or if "they know the spell." It's a pedantic distinction but an important one. 

[KoalaSnok]

"ENDLESS SPELLS If you have an endless spell model and its warscroll, all WIZARDS in your army know that spell in addition to any other spells they know"

That is from the Malign Sorcery book.

[Mephisto]

Thanks, @KoalaSnok

It is "known." Muwahahaha. Excellent.

Well, now I need to pick up a Malign Sorcery box as I think it's kind of a ****** move to play with someone else's models (and a discussion is currently going on, on whether or not you must own the models to hijack or steal spells in the first place). 

[KoalaSnok]

You would probably want it for the games which arent mirror matches anyway

[stickybluetoffee]

If your opponent can use your endless spell model that means you can’t cast that spell later (as you don’t have the model for it). As far as I’m concerned that means my opponent will have to have his own model to cast an Endless Spell they’ve learned off me.

[CanHammer-darren]

The rules are specific. You can only cast an endless spell if you have the model

[Honk]

I‘m not quite sure about that, since they do have points attached to them...

so missing out 150 points for three command points and a triumph, then stealing the endless spells from your opponent with Nagash...

it is definitely his style, but I fear frowned upon in matched play

[CanHammer-darren]

Not any more frowned upon then grots doing 32 damage a shot, kroak doing 100+ mortal wounds, seraphon summoning 1000+ points of models. Wouldn’t worry about nagash stealing endless spells especially if you don’t have the models to do it lol

[ianob]

You do  know Endless Spells of enemy death Wizards but you cannot cast them in matched play as you’ve not paid for the model. On open play fire away, but not in matched play. That includes Tzeentch also for the same reason.

[Mephisto]

On 7/14/2018 at 2:26 PM, ianob said:

You do  know Endless Spells of enemy death Wizards but you cannot cast them in matched play as you’ve not paid for the model. On open play fire away, but not in matched play. That includes Tzeentch also for the same reason.

I'm of the mind you gotta own the models to "steal" the spell. Similar to how you must own the models to summon them with a Branchwraith's spell, FEC's Ghoul King 1/Game ability, and so on. So no argument there. 

I only just now received my GHB2018 and haven't had the time to comb through it. Is there a specific rule that states you can't cast an Endless Spell or field a model that you've not paid the points for? Doesn't that sort of make the Summoning of the Various Chaos Armies (examples above) once again unplayable in Matched? 

[ianob]

6 minutes ago, Mephisto said:

I'm of the mind you gotta own the models to "steal" the spell. Similar to how you must own the models to summon them with a Branchwraith's spell, FEC's Ghoul King 1/Game ability, and so on. So no argument there. 

I only just now received my GHB2018 and haven't had the time to comb through it. Is there a specific rule that states you can't cast an Endless Spell or field a model that you've not paid the points for? Doesn't that sort of make the Summoning of the Various Chaos Armies (examples above) once again unplayable in Matched? 

There isnt, but that's the problem. There isnt actually a rule that says you have to pay points for the ability to cast endless spells - there's just a table of points values. So we know that they want us to pay points for them, obviously, but without a rule that says "you cannot cast an ES that you didnt pay points for" or something to that effect we dont actually know *what* the conditions around endless spells are or arent. And the logical conclusion (to me anyway) is that you can only cast them if you've bought them. "Copying" them because the other players' models know them = you can cast them without buying them = you can cast them without paying points for them in the first place = why do we even have a table of points values?

[Mephisto]

Oh, I understand what you're saying, @ianob. I'm actually drafting up a question to shoot the AoSFAQ team an email. 

Have I discovered an ingenious oversight of the rules, did they intend this, or what? They have a FAQ on Curseling's Vessel of Chaos ability but I find it inadequate. To paraphrase myself from the long discussions I've had since this FAQ came out:

"Yes, you can steal Endless Spells because they say that you can but you should own your own model in Matched to do so because the actual rules of Endless Spells say you must own the model to cast them. This is a criteria of casting the spell with a specifically stated rule in Malign Sorcery and the Core Rules. It's as important a criteria as ranges, eligible targets, line of sight, and so on. The Changeling (et al.) abilities don't say you can 'cast the spell and ignore all other requirements of that spell.' I read it to mean that, you can cast the spell if you have a model too."

You go a step further and say that because we pay points for things we play with, you gotta have the points invested. I totally get that. There's a reason we play matched. Where it gets real hazy for me is that they on purpose got rid of reinforcement points so that summoning just works. It's clear that spending points to summon things isn't entirely the most important part.

I truly appreciate the feedback. This sort of discussion I enjoy and helps me discover my true stance on matters. This one here just requires clarification from GW or TOs. I'll let y'all know what word I receive back from GW.

[ianob]

The other reason the Curseling ruling is not enough is because it's in a designers' commentary, not an FAQ, and it doesnt say anything about matched play. All of this works perfectly fine in narrative play and they do have a habit of giving broad answers that are actually not relevant to matched play.

Problem #2 is that some endless spells, like the NH and SC ones, specify that you must belong to a faction to cast them. Can Curseling cast them? Like you say, it doesnt say ignore all other requirements.

Also quite frankly, any rule that says "you have to carry every model of every endless spell ever produced in order to be 100% competitive" should never exist. It's unfair on the players to expect it and it's unfair that the couple of guys who would go to that length (which would be me) would be at an advantage over people who dont want to buy, paint and transport every ES model produced on the off-chance that they need to use it.

[Richelieu]

7 minutes ago, ianob said:

designers' commentary, not an FAQ

The designers commentary are the FAQs.   

I do generally agree with your assessment though.  I think GW needs to better define what combination of mechanisms allow a player to cast an endless spell.

[Mephisto]

44 minutes ago, ianob said:

The other reason the Curseling ruling is not enough is because it's in a designers' commentary, not an FAQ, and it doesnt say anything about matched play. All of this works perfectly fine in narrative play and they do have a habit of giving broad answers that are actually not relevant to matched play.

Problem #2 is that some endless spells, like the NH and SC ones, specify that you must belong to a faction to cast them. Can Curseling cast them? Like you say, it doesnt say ignore all other requirements.

I find Narrative and Open Play tend to be a bit self governing too. If I pull out my cheeky Nagash trick against my friend who plays "double zombie dragon death" (On either Blood or Night, depending) he'd laugh when I show him the rules and I'd grin and grab his model  a turn before he planned to use it. If I do that BS at a tournament and rub my dorito fingers on someone else's model, I deserve to be elbow dropped by my opponent like they're Macho Man Randy Savage.

Still, I do like finding combos FOR Matched play and this is one of those "needs more information" situations. 
 

44 minutes ago, ianob said:

Also quite frankly, any rule that says "you have to carry every model of every endless spell ever produced in order to be 100% competitive" should never exist. It's unfair on the players to expect it and it's unfair that the couple of guys who would go to that length (which would be me) would be at an advantage over people who dont want to buy, paint and transport every ES model produced on the off-chance that they need to use it.

Here's where we sort of disagree. It is ridiculous and impractical to expect something like this. That said it absolutely amuses me to have a sideboard of ES models. I'd keep them in a briefcase. "Oh, I see you chose Purple Sun for your Death Wizards. It seems that I have now it." **Grins in Shyish** Then I'd open up the brief case. There'd be dry ice in it. Plumes would unfurl as I retrieve the model and set it aside. I'm one of those couple of guys too it seems. I can imagine a Tzeentch player going even further. They have every ES and a handful of other models ready to go on the off-chance they play Sylvaneth or another army that uses a spell to summon. Like they have ten Dryads fully painted up and kitted out to look Tzeentchy in case they hijack Roused to Wrath. "Okay. This guy is here to win. I mean he took it a single step further than I would but well played, sir." It's also funny thinking of this guy flying two extra army cases of models to Adepticon "just in case" he needs them.

This is clearly some form of hyperbole but I do think that foresight and predicting a meta are a huge part of competitive play. I find the idea of a "sideboard" or other amount of adaptation in the moment intriguing.  Artefact and Lore Spells seem the logical place for this. It'd be easy (much easier than a brief case of ES) to get paired into your match-up then choose artefacts from a predictive list you have ready to go. "My generic list is this with these lore spells/artefacts but I'm allowed a side set of items in case I play my weak match-up." 

[choocheelo]

Guys, stupid question: is lore of the underworlds are  lores of the dead spells? 

[Mephisto]

On 7/17/2018 at 7:49 AM, choocheelo said:

Guys, stupid question: is lore of the underworlds are  lores of the dead spells? 

It is not a Lore of the Dead. The LON Battletome explicitly states what Lores of the Dead are. The Nighthaunt Battletome would have to make an exception (plus probably some GW errata since you'd have a situation of Battletome vs Battletome). The Nighthaunt Battletome does not make such an exception.