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Richelieu

Realm of Battle Rules: What are your experiences?

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This thread was inspired by a comment  @Kamose made in the Six Nations takeaways thread about how there are all sorts of new goodies in AoS2 but many content creators are focused almost completely on the brokenness of a number of new lists that are possible.  It got me thinking about how I've been using realm rules in my matched play games and they have been fun and seemingly balanced. 

So... What about everyone else?  Have you been using realm of battle rules?  Have they been fun, balanced, broken, silly, useless overhead? 

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Our matched play community right now is keeping these rules out of their games until the larger events start using them.  Right now the reaction is that they are not balanced or appropriate for matched play.

I think there may be a narrative campaign coming here soon though that will use them, but I will not have experience with those rules until then, provided the organizer is able to get participants for it.

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Haven't used them yet, and I doubt I will very often. There are just too many layers of optional rules now for the average human mind to comfortably contend with them all at once. We used the Shyish rules a bit during Malign Portents and tried to use the scenery rules and Portent Points too, but it started to become stressful and frustrating for me trying to keep track of everything. Something's got to give, and I think it will be the realmscape rules for a lot of people. Already hardly anyone I've come across IRL uses the scenery rules, and realmscapes feel like an extension of that.

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I like the Realmscape rules in Matched Play, even the very disruptive ones.

I don't like when they are randomly generated, or if you don't know which one it is going to be ahead of time.

I think events where the Realms & Realmscapes are announced ahead of time could be really fun. It adds another dimension to building your list.

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Using these rules for matched play is very much how the game is intended to be played.

I guess time will tell how that pans out. Saying they are "broken" before they have ever been used in a Tournament seems a little premature though. I'm sure most of them are perfectly fine and will create fun new, interesting and tactical challenges. Sure, there may be a couple of things in there that might need looking at (not sure on Banishment personally and also don't think the Realm of Beasts works in a tournament setting), but we won't know if we instantly shun it.

One thing that may be a genuine concern is the amount of book keeping and time added onto a regular game for this extra layer.

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I have not used the Realm of battles rule yet in matched play, it just seems a little too random to open up 6 random spells each game (especially with problem ones like banishment around). Another part to it is with the new rules and trying to contain a lot of information remember a extra command trait, 7 spells & and the realmscape table is a little much right now.

The last reason I'm not using it because as I'm a competitive minded player most events don't look to be using these.

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I'll just be completely honest and say that in my experience, people just agree to ignore most rules before battles. The "simple" rule sheets went from 4 pages to 16 pages. Nobody wants to get into that.

I usually do most of my gaming at my local GW shop, and even for the PAID tournaments there, people are opting out of these new rules. Not even the black/blueshirts want to use them. It just hurts the pace of the game.

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Yeah.  If LVO or Adepticon start using them, we will be forced to do so too, but otherwise, we just use the General's Handbook and the core rules and the tournament scenarios for all of our games.  Its just easier.  And more balanced.

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 Honestly most of the realm effects are fine, but the ones that aren't couldn't have seriously been developed with matched play in mind, at least not how I understand the intent of matched play which says right on the tin is about a balanced game experience. 

I am a big fan of each of the 3 ways to play, so not sure why GW would want to push narrative content onto matched play or vice versa.  They all scratch an itch to my mind and require slightly different parameters to work well, which I believe was the whole point of the 3 ways to play.  I will happily play in a narrative event running the full on realm rules, just slightly less happily if it was a matched play tournament using them :)

I also agree that all these layers add a lot of book keeping and time to games if they are actually used by the players and not just forgotten about once the dice start rolling. 

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My problem with realm rules is simple: they're so easy to forget. Me and my brother have couple times tried playing with different realm rules and every time we forgot they existed. I see those rules as unnecessary extra layer on top of the core rules.

I also don't really buy into this claim that this game is balanced around realm rules. There are so many broken things that can happen with some of the basic realm rules that will help some factions (who don't need any help) far more than others. Take the whole missile weapons get extra rend if you shoot 12" or further as one example. And don't get me even started with those spells. Banishment is broken and so is casting value 6 fire spell that increases unit's damage characteristic by 1.

Common defensive arguments I see with these realm spells is that 1. They aid wizards of factions with no spell lores of their own and 2. Everyone can use them, so what's the big fuss. Both of these arguments are flawed imo. First of all, not every faction gets natural wizard of their own. Magic may be one of the themes of 2nd edition but unless I can purchase wizard for my army without spending ally points or ruining my army's theme altogether (think Khorne for example), then it shouldn't be so overwhelmingly strong system. Endless spells I like since they cost points and wizardless armies can still control them. Secondly, the armies without spell lores aren't the ones gaining more power from realm spells. Armies that gain most power are the already magic dominant armies such as tzeentch, LoN and such. Those small fry casters with 1 spell and no casting bonuses have no place on table when the big wizs start casting. I don't see how these realm spells do anything but help guys like Nagash just dominate the table even more.

Also one final thing I'd like to point about realm rules. It says in the core rules that "you CAN use these realm rules blaa blaa..." in other words, even GW considers them as optional ruleset. It also doesn't help that they are rules hidden in 2 different books, core book and malign sorcery. I don't know about uk tournament scene but where I live, during any bigger tournament events, you need to use only one hand to calculate the number of people who own both malign sorcery and the new core book. Ghb is by far the most popular book and that book should have had the rules for realms and their spells in it. Or make at the very least realm rules part of the free core rules.

But enough rambling on my part. I still like the existence of realm rules and I think they're great for open/narrative/casual games. I just find them to be really badly designed for any tournament games (unless it's themed tournament). The low access for these rules thanks to these extra books was biggest mistake GW did with them.

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I think what would have been better is for them to release the core rules in a book that is the standard game and then all of these extra layers for narrative play should have been in their own book.

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3 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Yeah.  If LVO or Adepticon start using them, we will be forced to do so too, but otherwise, we just use the General's Handbook and the core rules and the tournament scenarios for all of our games.  Its just easier.  And more balanced.

I would bet Adepticon will use them.

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17 minutes ago, Rhellion said:

So far these are my favorite thing about AoS 2

I have been having great fun with them as well.  I lost a game a few days ago because I thought I had everything planned out, abandoned an objective because my opponent had no units anywhere near it, and then he took his lone wizard and used the Ulgu teleport to claim it.  It was fun and he deserved to win because he accounted for more things than I did...And that's the essence of wargaming, so what's not to like?

I can also say that our local tournament scene intends to use them, including at our annual GT.  

We're even thinking about how to fairly use Ghur's rules because there could be a whole other tactical element to the game about which monster to bring that would harm your opponent while not posing much risk to your own army composition.  

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6 hours ago, Richelieu said:

This thread was inspired by a comment  @Kamose made in the Six Nations takeaways thread about how there are all sorts of new goodies in AoS2 but many content creators are focused almost completely on the brokenness of a number of new lists that are possible.  It got me thinking about how I've been using realm rules in my matched play games and they have been fun and seemingly balanced. 

So... What about everyone else?  Have you been using realm of battle rules?  Have they been fun, balanced, broken, silly, useless overhead? 

This just what I was looking for! Thanks! ?

Its only fair I put in my two cents. I've played three games with the Realmscape rules. One in Ghyran, one in Chamon, and one in Hysh.

To be honest we forgot about the extra Command Ability in all the games (even when it would've really helped in Hysh).

I like the extra Realm Feature. I find one extra rule isn't too onerous. In Chamon we rolled Brittle Isles which removes rend from all attacks. It saved my Freeguild's bacon more than once but made my Demigryphs sad. In Ghyran the Feature didn't matter much but in Hysh we rolled Dazzling Light (-1 to hit units in cover). It had a huge effect and benefitted everyone. At one point I cast Vengeful Radiance (+1 to hit) on a unit in cover.  I like the idea of the cover being so bright it's hard to look at, but if you shine even MORE light on it the brightness laps itself and goes back to dark! That's how light works! ?

The spells were all interesting and mostly useful. I even used Banishment without provoking a fight! My only issue is this. 6 extra spells is a lot to remember so I often forget I have them at my disposal. Still I like the options! 

I can see why some people might be wary of these in Matched Play. Honestly if I were running a tournament, I would pick a Realm and a Feature for each table (maybe just one Realm and Feature for the entire tourney). Then I'd make sure to include it in the tournament announcement. Then people can make lists with it in mind and no one has to worry about the randomness. I might even have people choose a Realm spell for their wizards instead of needing to remember all 6. I might pass on Ghur unless I could provide the monsters for each table. Sounds unlikely but I know a guy with a veritable herd of gargants!

In short, I think the Realm rules are fine in Matched Play but should be prepared beforehand by the TO.

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They're trash. The different realms abilities range from 'you wanna just not bother?' to 'I guess I just lose then.'  in terms of how useful they are to different armies.The realmscape features are totally unusable ranging from 'Totally pointless' to 'I guess I just lose then' and are also stupidly random most of the time, the spells massively favor certain armies over others, and are just stupidly OP in some cases. Banishment is the most powerful spell in the game period. Ghryan has a spell that lets Nagash, Allarielle, or Archaon charge whatever they want anywhere on the board, OVER screens, etc, etc, etc.(for the but..but...crowd, I know it's technically 18" away and 9" from the enemy but they can still move before they charge so for someone like allarielle with a 16" move that ends up being a 41" effective charge range that can hop over anything in its way.)

Some of the realmscape features win the game during setup. If you roll Fecund whatever in Ghryan against a Slaanesh or DoK player as any army with shooting or teleport abilities, they basically lose right there. That game immediately becomes SO frustrating and SO painful for the DoK or Slaanesh player that honestly, even if they COULD still battle it out, it's just not worth the incredible headache to do so. One random stupid realm rule basically took complete control of the whole game.

The realm rules are easily the worst thing GW has ever added to this game. And it's also pretty clear that they were at least partially a cheap way to force people to buy their stupidly over priced wyldwoods. These have ABSOLUTELY NO PLACE in matched play.

Here, let me simulate every single realm rule all at once. Roll 2 dice, if you get snake eyes, half your army is destroyed. If you get boxcars half of your opponents army is destroyed. Everything else does D3 mortal wounds. There, exactly the same as every realm rule in both their impact on the game and what they add to matched play.

Edited by Bellfree
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3 hours ago, Rhellion said:

I would bet Adepticon will use them.

I f***ing hope not.

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1 hour ago, Bellfree said:

They're trash. The different realms abilities range from 'you wanna just not bother?' to 'I guess I just lose then.'  in terms of how useful they are to different armies.The realmscape features are totally unusable ranging from 'Totally pointless' to 'I guess I just lose then' and are also stupidly random most of the time, the spells massively favor certain armies over others, and are just stupidly OP in some cases.

Ok, ok.  We get it.  You don't like the Realmscape rules.  Based on the level of hyperbole in your post I think its safe to say that you've never actually tried these rules and this is "Worst-case Scenario" thinking.  Its worth pointing out that if, "The different realms abilities range from 'you wanna just not bother?' to 'I guess I just lose then.'" that implies that there is a happy middle ground.  There is some combination of armies and Realmscape rules that lead to happy games.  So why not try them out.  Don't roll, pick one that you and your opponent can agree on and give it a try.  It will take a few tries surely, but you'll find it.  Or don't. They're all optional, after all.

1 hour ago, Bellfree said:

Ghryan has a spell that lets Nagash, Allarielle, or Archaon charge whatever they want anywhere on the board, OVER screens, etc, etc, etc.(for the but..but...crowd, I know it's technically 18" away and 9" from the enemy but they can still move before they charge so for someone like allarielle with a 16" move that ends up being a 41" effective charge range that can hop over anything in its way.)

I believe you're talking about Mirrorpool.  Now Alarielle, Archaon, and Nagash can already fly so they can charge over screens on their own.  Mirrorpool does not grant flying so non-flyers still can't use it to get over screens.  But none of that helps those three get past screening units for one simple reason.  They all have 6" diameter bases.  If the screen is within 5.9" of the target, even if you make the charge roll, you can't place them without them being on top of the screen so the charge fails unless they hit the screening unit alone (just as planned).  Even if they roll box cars and fly over the screen, the farthest they can go is 3.1" behind the protected unit (and still fail the charge because their bases are still too large). 

1 hour ago, Bellfree said:

If you roll Fecund whatever in Ghryan against a Slaanesh or DoK player as any army with shooting or teleport abilities, they basically lose right there. That game immediately becomes SO frustrating and SO painful for the DoK or Slaanesh player that honestly, even if they COULD still battle it out, it's just not worth the incredible headache to do so. One random stupid realm rule basically took complete control of the whole game.

That would be Fecund Quagmire.  The Slaanesh or DoK player can always alter their list or playstyle.  Try something new!  If they can't because they lack the models or if they refuse to (their choice) then simply pick a different rule.  We have 42 to choose from (ok 35, #1 on each table doesn't really count)!  Just because one Realmscape feature (probably) makes a game unenjoyable for one army played in one way does not mean the entire suite of rules is "trash".

1 hour ago, Bellfree said:

The realm rules are easily the worst thing GW has ever added to this game. And it's also pretty clear that they were at least partially a cheap way to force people to buy their stupidly over priced wyldwoods

There's that hyperbole again!  If they're trying to push Wyldwoods on us, then they've been trying for 3 years (more really).  That particular Realmscape Feature was first published in the Time of War: Rotwater Blight rules all the way back in The Quest for Ghal Maraz (the 2nd book ever published for the game).  Also yes they are; they would very much like you to give them money for their models.

1 hour ago, Bellfree said:

Here, let me simulate every single realm rule all at once. Roll 2 dice, if you get snake eyes, half your army is destroyed. If you get boxcars half of your opponents army is destroyed. Everything else does D3 mortal wounds. There, exactly the same as every realm rule in both their impact on the game and what they add to matched play.

BAM! Hyperbole!  Protip:  Use it sparingly.  Too much hyperbole makes it seem like you don't know what you're talking about.
?

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At the local game store we played and they let me pick the realm and because my Sylvaneth are themed Ulgu that is the realm I picked. 

When we rolled for the effect we got all ranged attacks are 6inches.  was not a huge deal for me (my hunters used swords and I had the Umbral Spell Portal).  But for the other army is was bad.  Kharadron Overlords with a focus on range.  After 1 round I gave him to option to start over in a new realm.  He was a champ and stuck it out and focused on teaching me to play rather than getting competitive or annoyed. 

Since there was no adult beverages, so I got him a coke afterwords! We both agreed to reroll if that happens again. 

 

Edited by Deja vu
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5 hours ago, Richelieu said:

We're even thinking about how to fairly use Ghur's rules because there could be a whole other tactical element to the game about which monster to bring that would harm your opponent while not posing much risk to your own army composition.

in my semi-local store and playing in the realm of beasts they have a few models that you can pick from so that you dont get a model from your army.  The fight I had there I got to play a star drake.  Very tough monster. I like how casual this store is. 

Edited by Deja vu

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Friend and I played our first game 1750 points.

My Legion of Night vs his Daemons of Tzeentch.

We randomly picked a realm and got realm of shadow. The affect we got was 6" to all attacks and spells.

I thought "hell yeah this makes his magic/horror heavy list bearable"

He summoned the spell portals (first time either of us really read the warscroll...) Realm of shadow he can set the second one up anywhere... 

He proceeded to cause 48 unsaved mortal wounds turn 1 to my blobs of skeletons. (Gaunt summoner and Lord of change with the 6+ version).

Both were undispellable because he had used destiny dice to ensure the cast.

The rest of his army was out of range to do any harm with spells (but he is able to cast his offensive spells regardless if there's a legal target in range). So he generated 11 points for summoning and used destiny dice to ensure some blue horrors made turn 1 charges against my already crippled skeletons.

I didn't even get a turn.

----------–----

My takeaway from realm rules. Shadow looked like it would make for an interesting match, unfortunately the spell portals are busted while in realm of shadow.  I now am pouring over endless spells to check realm bonuses lol

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12 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Yeah.  If LVO or Adepticon start using them, we will be forced to do so too, but otherwise, we just use the General's Handbook and the core rules and the tournament scenarios for all of our games.  Its just easier.  And more balanced.

Why would you have to use the Realm Rules if those events do?  You can run your event anyway you want.  I’ve read packs that use the rules, use modified versions, or have avoided them entirely.   I would like to see a world where people run the event that they want and people go to the events that sound good to them.

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5 hours ago, Tittliewinks22 said:

Friend and I played our first game 1750 points.

My Legion of Night vs his Daemons of Tzeentch.

We randomly picked a realm and got realm of shadow. The affect we got was 6" to all attacks and spells.

I thought "hell yeah this makes his magic/horror heavy list bearable"

He summoned the spell portals (first time either of us really read the warscroll...) Realm of shadow he can set the second one up anywhere... 

He proceeded to cause 48 unsaved mortal wounds turn 1 to my blobs of skeletons. (Gaunt summoner and Lord of change with the 6+ version).

Both were undispellable because he had used destiny dice to ensure the cast.

The rest of his army was out of range to do any harm with spells (but he is able to cast his offensive spells regardless if there's a legal target in range). So he generated 11 points for summoning and used destiny dice to ensure some blue horrors made turn 1 charges against my already crippled skeletons.

I didn't even get a turn.

----------–----

My takeaway from realm rules. Shadow looked like it would make for an interesting match, unfortunately the spell portals are busted while in realm of shadow.  I now am pouring over endless spells to check realm bonuses lol

Out of interest when you you say LoC with the 6+ version, he didn't roll a 6+ for the each model in the unit right? As Firestorm is roll 9 dice and each one is D3 MW, it's very different to the GS blanket 4+ MW for each model in range of the spell, which I think he also must of done wrong as with a range 6" you're not catching even half the unit. 

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+++ Mod Hat On +++

@Bellfree - I've just been looking at your last few posts and whilst there are nuggets of constructive criticism, the general attitude of them has been very negative. Please tone it down and keep it constructive

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