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amysrevenge

Is "Inspiring Presence" too powerful?

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In general, I don't care for abilities or rules that let someone completely ignore a core part of the game with zero risk.

I wouldn't like an ability that provided complete protection against magic, or shooting, or melee.

And I'm starting to not like complete protection against Battleshock.

What if, instead of immunity to Battleshock, IP (and other similar immunities) instead gave a +10 to Bravery in the Battleshock phase?  You'd still be largely safe in most cases, but in extreme outcomes you're still losing some stuff.  And it doesn't completely invalidate all those bravery bomb abilities out there.

Just a notion.

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Given its costs (command points) and restrictions (hero in range) it seems fine to me. I would prefer it it gave +10 bravery or something like that, since it would keep my Carnosaurs bloodroar relevant.

I've been thinking Command Points are a bit too common, though. Maybe allowing people to "buy" command points for 50p was a mistake...

Edited by PJetski

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It seems ok to me since it only works in a single battleshock phase now rather than for both player turns.  The reactive nature of the ability is nice, but to use it you have to burn a command point and also have a character near the unit to trigger it.  I don't think it requires zero risk at all.  There is much more "ignores battleshock" abilities in the game that I think probably need to be looked at than this one.  The cost is fairly high for Inspiring Presence.

I really like it now because of how thematic it is.  It is now much more about heroes providing inspiration for their troops to fight on against desperate odds.  Or troops fighting because they are more afraid of their own commanders than the enemy.  But, it should also paint a target on the backs of said heroes.

It seems like a potential counter to mortal-wound bomb tactics that can still be defeated with tactics.  If your strategy revolves around mortal wound bombs then you are going to need to take out lynchpin heroes to prevent the enemy from using Inspiring Presence to halt your combos.

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Its not any more powerful than small units that have bravery 9/10 base (undead, demons, seraphon, skullcrushers after they kill a dude, etc). Their stats and unit size makes them immune to battleshock by default. 

How do you feel about nighthaunt's ability to completely ignore rend? Thats a core part of the game just like battleshock. 

If im coming off as aggressive its because i just dont get where you're coming from on this

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4 minutes ago, Gotrek said:

Its not any more powerful than small units that have bravery 9/10 base (undead, demons, seraphon, skullcrushers after they kill a dude, etc). Their stats and unit size makes them immune to battleshock by default. 

How do you feel about nighthaunt's ability to completely ignore rend? Thats a core part of the game just like battleshock. 

If im coming off as aggressive its because i just dont get where you're coming from on this

The comparison isn't "ignores rend".  The comparison would be "cannot be damaged in the combat phase".  Morathi actually comes close to this, and I'm not sure how I feel about that frankly.  Haha

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45 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

The comparison isn't "ignores rend".  The comparison would be "cannot be damaged in the combat phase".  Morathi actually comes close to this, and I'm not sure how I feel about that frankly.  Haha

So stardrake w/castellant lantern, coven throne spell, doppleganger cloak, sequitors w/staunch defender & empowered shields, bastiladon w/mystic shield...

Yes, technically none of these make the unit immune to damage, but it makes them all but immune to damage. 

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4 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

It seems ok to me since it only works in a single battleshock phase now rather than for both player turns.  The reactive nature of the ability is nice, but to use it you have to burn a command point and also have a character near the unit to trigger it.  I don't think it requires zero risk at all.  There is much more "ignores battleshock" abilities in the game that I think probably need to be looked at than this one.  The cost is fairly high for Inspiring Presence.

I really like it now because of how thematic it is.  It is now much more about heroes providing inspiration for their troops to fight on against desperate odds.  Or troops fighting because they are more afraid of their own commanders than the enemy.  But, it should also paint a target on the backs of said heroes.

It seems like a potential counter to mortal-wound bomb tactics that can still be defeated with tactics.  If your strategy revolves around mortal wound bombs then you are going to need to take out lynchpin heroes to prevent the enemy from using Inspiring Presence to halt your combos.

I would say that the current version is much better than the previous. The old inspiring presence took more than a command point, it took your all command abilities for a turn and it wasn't reactive. Now you can use it if you really need it and possibly for multiple units on the same turn and especially for the unit it actually counts. 

 

As separate thing, one of the reasons why I consider40k to be much worse game tha AoS is that in it it's a weakness if you have to roll for morale instead of a strength if you don't need to, which I hope doesn't follow to AoS as well. 

Edited by Jamopower
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3 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

I would say that the current version is much better than the previous. The old inspiring presence took more than a command point, it took your all command abilities for a turn and it wasn't reactive. Now you can use it if you really need it and possibly for multiple units on the same turn and especially for the unit it actually counts. 

 

As separate thing, one of the reasons why I consider40k to be much worse game tha AoS is that in it it's a weakness if you have to roll for morale instead of a strength if you don't need to, which I hope doesn't follow to AoS as well. 

I don't think it is strictly better or worse.  It is different.  On the whole it is a side-grade in my opinion.  That said, I like this version more than the original.

I agree that in 40k the morale was not baked in enough.  But that issue has been happening in 40k for a long long time now.  At least in 8th they tried to bring morale somewhat back into the game after spending years designing it into a huge corner-case.  But it is still not well implemented as you said.

I still enjoy fun games of 40k from time to time, but my issue with that game is that the extra layer of complexity it layers over the slimmer AoS rule set often does not really add much.  It also has no idea what it is doing in regards to terrain in the current edition and that is not helping the game with as plentiful as ranged weapons are.

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4 minutes ago, Gotrek said:

So stardrake w/castellant lantern, coven throne spell, doppleganger cloak, sequitors w/staunch defender & empowered shields, bastiladon w/mystic shield...

Yes, technically none of these make the unit immune to damage, but it makes them all but immune to damage. 

But it doesn't. 

I can't imagine a universal "spend one CP and be unaffected by enemy attacks in the shooting phase" ability being OK.

I can't imagine a universal "spend one CP and be unaffected by enemy spells in the hero phase" ability being OK (although this one gets the closest to OK).

I can't imagine a universal "spend one CP and be unaffected by enemy attacks in the combat phase" ability being OK.

I can't imagine a universal "spend one CP and be ineligible to be charged in the charge phase" ability being OK.

Why is "spend one CP and be unaffected by battleshock in the battleshock phase" OK?  Because that's how we've always (ha "always" for a couple years now) done it? 

I wouldn't question for an instant if there was occasionally a specialized unit that, paired with some buffs, was *almost* immune to battleshock, or *effectively* immune to battleshock.  But an ability for everyone that is indiscriminate and lets you check out entirely of a phase?  Seems like a bit much.  In the same way that immunity to shooting would be unfair to shooty armies, immunity to battleshock is unfair to armies with "leadership bomb" abilities.  "Oh, you spent artefacts and command traits so you can can stack up a -6 penalty to opponents' Bravery and you killed 9 of 'em?  That's nice.  1 CP makes it go away without rolling any dice, bud."

If IP (and every other "immune to battleshock" ability) was exchanged for a +10 bonus to Bravery in the battleshock phase, it could even be stackable.  You could raise the Bravery high enough that the check isn't failable.  They often aren't failable anyway (how many times have you said or heard "even if I roll a 6 I'm fine"?).  But you're not checking out of the phase.  You're working out the math and playing the game.

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I think the ability is OK. You have to spend a CP per unit and the unit has to be within 6" of a hero or 12" of the general. That's enough limitations for me.

And I know this is going to sound like SCE bashing again but I assure you it isn't meant that way: it is just that the Lord Celestant on Dracoth has the version of the ability that I dislike. 24" range, every unit is safe from battleshock. It is like inspiring presence except you don't have to think about on which unit to put it on and placement doesn't even matter much. I think such abilities are bad for the game.

Edited by Aginor
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So the problem isnt that the unit becomes functionally immune to battleshock, its that you just dont even bother to roll the dice? Sorry, but i dont see how that matters. 

Example: if I'm understanding you correctly, you're fine with me being unable to fail a battleshock test (as in even on a 6 i pass) as long as the dice still gets rolled?

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If you think Inspiring presence is annoying, try having 3 Hag Queens use witchbrew on three witch elves units. Now you have 3 units with no battleshock. Worse yet, try 3 witchbrews on 3 units of 20 Blood Sisters. Believe me, be happy with just Inspiring Presence, lol

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3 minutes ago, Scythian said:

If you think Inspiring presence is annoying, try having 3 Hag Queens use witchbrew on three witch elves units. Now you have 3 units with no battleshock. Worse yet, try 3 witchbrews on 3 units of 20 Blood Sisters. Believe me, be happy with just Inspiring Presence, lol

Agreed.

The prevalence of Ignore Battleshock abilities bothers me a whole lot more than Inspiring Presence.  I like Inspiring Presence as a rule.

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Wait, with Inspiring Presence I could have FOUR units with no battleshock, lol. Gotta love that witchbrew, ha! I know, shut up, Scythian! 

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16 minutes ago, Gotrek said:

So the problem isnt that the unit becomes functionally immune to battleshock, its that you just dont even bother to roll the dice? Sorry, but i dont see how that matters. 

Example: if I'm understanding you correctly, you're fine with me being unable to fail a battleshock test (as in even on a 6 i pass) as long as the dice still gets rolled?

My problem isn't with arranging for success.  It's with arranging not to play.

There have been other items and abilities in other editions that have just cancelled out sections of the game and I didn't like them either.  I seem to recall Ogres had some item that would cancel one Magic Phase in 8th (memory is fuzzy...).  And there was some Skaven thing that cancelled out a shooting phase maybe? Sounds like something those rats would do...

It's not a practical issue with gameplay.  It's a philosophical issue with game design.  I just don't like abilities that pull a chunk of the game out and toss it away.  Auto-success is a different thing than not even having to try, even if the outcome is the same.

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18 minutes ago, Gotrek said:

So the problem isnt that the unit becomes functionally immune to battleshock, its that you just dont even bother to roll the dice? Sorry, but i dont see how that matters. 

Example: if I'm understanding you correctly, you're fine with me being unable to fail a battleshock test (as in even on a 6 i pass) as long as the dice still gets rolled?

Basically yes. This is a game about rolling dice, at least for me.

But apart from that: it is just one parameter to balance an ability. There are very strong abilities but they are often not as reliable. Others are weaker but reliable. Some are strong and reliable but then they usually have short range or the enemy can do something against them (for example damage abilities might only work against certain types of units, or defensive ones might reliably stop rend -1 but the enemy can react by using rend-2 attacks on that unit)

If something doesn't require skill nor luck, the enemy has no way to overcome it and it is strong and has a big area of effect, then IMO it is not fun, for neither of the players. So IMO that's bad for the game.

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I think the issue with battleshock is two fold:

1. Battleshock sucks.   You just got massacred by someone, usually someone who double turned or who is playing a strong list.  Your highly detailed 40 Saurus warriors just lost half their unit.  Boom.  And what's the reward for keeping half of a garbage unit alive? They all run away.  Sad. 

2. Battleshock sucks.  You have a really tough unit that you beefed up with all the right combos to withstand an incredible onslaught.  It was expensive and you ended up with not a lot of models to speak of at the end of it. You held out and only lost 2 guys on a million attacks.  Well done!  Oops!  They reduced your 6 bravery to 4?  Yikes. Did you just roll a 6?  Nice planning. Say goodbye to your guys that you cleverly managed to keep alive. 

I was a skaven player a long time ago so I'm especially sensitive about battleshock but I think battleshock is like mortal wounds kicked to 11. You're just bornked. You roll a die and models die.  MODELS.  It's crushing.  Moreso than any other element in the game. 

I think the quality of counter should match the extent of depression caused by the attack.  That said, I think battleshock immune bubbles are WAY too much.  

Edit: My number one gaming partner just started a nighthaunt army, so I'm guessing my opinion on battleshock is not going to change any time soon... 

 

Edited by Vextol
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2 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

It's not a practical issue with gameplay.  It's a philosophical issue with game design.  I just don't like abilities that pull a chunk of the game out and toss it away.  Auto-success is a different thing than not even having to try, even if the outcome is the same.

I understand how it can leave a sour taste in the mouth (lightning blast's unlimited range leaves a sour taste in mine) but if the end result is the same (the dice roll being irrelevant vs not rolling it at all) then it doesnt really matter how you get there. I get that you feel different but its not something we're going to see eye to eye on given how prevalent battleshock resistance is in the game. Even if they remove inspiring presence all together it wouldnt make much impact

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3 hours ago, Scythian said:

Wait, with Inspiring Presence I could have FOUR units with no battleshock, lol. Gotta love that witchbrew, ha! I know, shut up, Scythian! 

I like Daughters of Khaine, so I am not going to get into a discussion about Witch Brew.  But I don’t see how dumping 4 command points, a very limited resource, is remotely the same as an ability that you can continually spam from cheap heroes.

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My first real games of AoS 2.0 will be this Friday. I’m sure with command points, it’ll be quite a change from the previous edition.

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I think it's good that it's as powerful as it is. In case you haven't noticed, not every army gets these "+1 to attack" or any other similar good offense command abilities (or even good defensive ones like harbinger of decay). Fyreslayers is perfect example of one such army. To have these base command abilities powerful enough (even the charge reroll and quaranteed run of 6 are both nice) means that command points become actual resource that you have to carefully distribute. If you spend everything on boosting someone's attack, you might regret that when you fail that 3" charge or take massive b.shock damage. Also, if your opponent doesn't feel like spending more than one c.point every other turn on battleshock immunity, that might be more telling that your army isn't aggressive/powerful enough to force him to use more or give him/her multiple battleshocks each turn.

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inspiring presence also just does something a lot of armies can do for better too.

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No I don't agree with you @amysrevenge that it's too powerful. Most importantly because the battleshock phase happens twice per turn in which you gain only one command point and it's (almost) always a choice between two advantages. Use it now to save soldiers or save it to make said soldiers stronger in my phase. So for me it's fine, but I haven;t run into a situation were it felt overpowered. Was there a specific moment you thought it's too powerful? Or more of a general musing. Because I expect a lot of combinations coming that will be crazy over the coming months :)  

8 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

But it doesn't. 

I can't imagine a universal "spend one CP and be unaffected by enemy attacks in the shooting phase" ability being OK.

I can't imagine a universal "spend one CP and be unaffected by enemy spells in the hero phase" ability being OK (although this one gets the closest to OK).

I can't imagine a universal "spend one CP and be unaffected by enemy attacks in the combat phase" ability being OK.

I can't imagine a universal "spend one CP and be ineligible to be charged in the charge phase" ability being OK.

Why is "spend one CP and be unaffected by battleshock in the battleshock phase" OK?  Because that's how we've always (ha "always" for a couple years now) done it? 

Also these comparisons are flawed and you know it. You spend the CP in ONE phase, which happens twice in a battleround, to make ONE unit uneffected. Nowhere near the same as your examples. 

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To me I dont see it as a problem.  I dont think its equivalent to 'models dont die in hero/shooting/combat phase' comparison because battleshock is a result of those phases.  I know people can build 'battleshock bombs' but that is a tactic that still requires you to kill stuff first and its based on the premise of inspiring presence being there.  Essentially this is a complaint that you cant build consistently reliable 'battleshock bombs' because inspiring presence exists, but as many have said it can easily be neutered by killing nearby heros. 

Its not as though inspiring exists as a golden standard of battleshock immunity, plenty of other ways to neutralise battleshock exist using command abilities or allegiance abilities, inspiring is just a good way for all armies to have a fair chance... as long as they build and play their army in a way to make use of it.

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I can't imagine a universal "spend one CP and be unaffected by enemy attacks in the shooting phase" ability being OK.

Isnt that just the Prismatic wall endless spell?  If you dont have a wizard to dispel it then thats not even a CP to make whatever is behind it immune to shooting.

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