Starting Free Guild Army - 1000 pts List?

[Schwachmat]

Hi All,

I want to get started with AoS 2.0 using more or less the old "Empire", so a mixture of Free People, Ironweld Arsenal, Collegiate Arcane and Devoted to Sigmar. 
I already read through a couple of posts and list suggestions. Before I order the first miniatures and start painting I wanted to check if this list does make sense

 

The idea is to have a core I can build upon. I am especially uncertain with warmachines and wizards. Maybe a different warmachine and instead of the wizard the hurricanum?

Happy for every comment and suggestion! 

 

Thanks,
Stephan
 

[Matador]

Hi and welcome to the cult of FreePeople, the most underrated and powerful faction in the game buddy.   

 

In small point army lists you will want to use the 100 point freeguild general, not the griffon rider. That is because he will give you access to 'hold the line' the most important command ability with a +1 hit, +1 wound.  The griffon general is an extravagance that should only be considered with a 2500 point army, and even then.... nope!

Next, only take demigryphs if you are trying to make the Freeguild battalion, of which they are required, otherwise they are not worth the cost and will disappoint. 

Next, take crossbowmen, not handgunners. They now shoot twice, even after moving in 2.0. This means they well outshine the gunners in damage, range, mobility.  Get many many many many crossbowmen.

No warmachines, for the cost they can't compete with freeguild guard (get block of 40), crossbowmen, and pistoliers. 

Same goes for casters and cost, get more battle line guard and crossbowmen. 

 

Have fun!

 

[Schwachmat]

Thanks for your detailed answer! This does help indeed

I totally understand your argument. If you would aim for a less competitive list (so not only guard and crossbowmen)...

What would you ally in from Collegiate Arcane and/or Ironwel Arsenal? Considering small point games in the beginning.

Thanks,
Stephan

[divineauthority]

I disagree with Matador, I think crossbowmen definitely have their place but I still prefer Handgunners to back up Guard. It's not too difficult to get them hitting on 3's wounding on 2s and with a rend of -1 as standard, not relying on 6's. You may find that crossbowmen could be more useful at smaller point levels though to give you the mobility to cap objectives. Hold the Line doesn't allow you to move or charge so you may run the risk of your army being to static.

I've found Demigryphs to be really useful in smaller games, in a Path to Glory game just last night for example they managed to delete blocks of 20 Clanrats at will it seemed.

The General on Griffon can still be viable at 1000 points, with the changes to the Great Company rules, there are a fair few Free Peoples players now looking at running multiple Griffons in a 2000 point list.

Wizards are going to always be useful with all the changes to magic in AoS2 and the battlemage has the benefit of having a wide selection of spells to pick from.

If I personally were to tweak your list a bit, I'd be tempted to drop the Helstorm and add a General on foot/horse in (keep the Griffon to run with the Demigryphs). Then add another unit of Handgunners/Crossbowmen or Guard in so that you can form a great company. I think that would even leave enough points to add something like the Soulsnare Shackles spell in!

Another thing to think about is maybe giving the Guard swords or at least some of them as that improves their save in combat and allows them to hold out a bit longer whilst the Handgunners/Crosswbowmen rip them to shreds.

[Schwachmat]

Thanks for your reply!

I tweaked the list a bit. 

- are Greatswords a viable option?

- what is the best option from the Ironweld Arsenal?

Of course I could ditch the griffon. It is also a matter of buying the models and the order I am going to paint them. I just ordered 20 Guard, 10 Handgunners and 1 General on Griffon. But I am thankful for all hints!

By the way: I am going for an Asian themed army using these lovely models with round bases ? 

http://titan-forge.com/92-dragon-empire?page=1

Thanks!
Stephan

 

[Lightbox]

Personally for his points cost I find the general on griffon to be amazing! Very scary and mobile and his command ability is pretty nice on himself or others when you don't want to hold the line.

 

Ironweld wise helstorm rocket batteries can be very nice as they don't need line of sight, don't really need an engineer and have long range. Otherwise cannons with a gunmaster to let them reroll their hits is brilliant too! @Double Misfire is the man to talk to about big guns of the ironweld!

Can't comment on greatswords as not used them yet but they don't look bad tbh.

 

Demigryphs definitely aren't the most competetive but are very lovely models and make fun anvils. Handgunners vs Crossbows is an age old debate, both are good. Crossbows are generally considered good in a large unit whereas handguns good in multiple small units to maximise the sharpshooters with long rifles.

[Matador]

I played 134 2000< point, and 63 1000 point battles last year using Free people under the 2017 GHB  with a record of 195 wins, 1 loss, 1 tie.  In the last two weeks I've played 19 with no losses and I've been amazed at how much the faction benefited from the new changes. 

So with that said, Handgunner V.S. Crossbowmen was an age old debate, but with the changes in the errata that now allows crossbowmen to use the double fire while moving it has made the debate moot. https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/age_of_sigmar_grand_alliance_order_errata_en.pdf  That right there referring to page 141 finally tipped the scales to the crossbowmen. 

But don't sweat in Schwamat! the gunners you ordered come with what you need to make them crossbows or gunners. In fact with careful assembly you can make them so that you can switch the weapons on models between games. I have 120 xbow/gunner models that can switch back and forth myself, but since 2.0 they have been purely xbows except for the 2 units I still occasionally set up as snipers to kill mages in the first turn. Otherwise it's has to be crossbows now. 

Don't get me wrong, gunners are great fun, but if you are running freeguild it has to be crossbows for the main unit and maybe a flavor of gunners, but really that's a waste of points. Especially when you consider the fact that gunners still lose one of their precious +1 to hit if they move at all leaving the gunners the "static" loser.  I'm sure Divine just forgot that "hold the line" only prohibits movement on the player's turn not the opponent's allowing units in Great companies to shoot or charge, and he also forgot that the Gunners will only get that hit 3 wound 2 if they are under the effect of "hold the line" as well not moving. Where as the Crossbowmen in that instance will have hit on 2 wound on 3, with 33% of those being rend, and most importantly all those shots having a range 4" farther than the gunners. 

And keep in mind that the 4" range superiority is dam near the equivalent of a max move for both gunner and xbows, on top on any movement the crossbows will make!

Demigryphs just can't compete with crossbows, or even handgunners for that matter. Played correctly they will both out DPR the Demis at range and of course Demigryphs don't have stand and fire for the important defense DPR that any decent Free People general must have to compete with other factions. The only reason to ever use a demigryph unit is to make up the unit requirement for the freeguild battalion, it's sad but it's just the way it is. Even their new lower cost makes them too expensive to use in  great companies and the pistoliers and outriders make better objective grabbers by far. So although they are beautiful looking models they are a trap for rookies.  Especially in low point games where the unwise point expenditure will really hurt!

The griffon general falls into the same category, he looks great but he takes to many points for what he does. Keep in mind that a general should always play to the strengths of a faction, and the strength of FP is not big heavy monsters that can be swamped. The strength of the FP is in their battleline units and especially in their Great Companies, of which the General on the Griffon cannot be part of and cannot benefit from. Also the Gen/Griffon can only benefit single units with his Command ability as opposed to the other general's ability to boost 3 at a time. So nobody on the competitive circuit is using Gen/griffs with the great companies, as of yet it has been some theory building that has been disproved.  

The Real strength of Free People units, are other FP units in bulk, the great companies, and the amazing Freeguild battalion when it can be afforded. And the often unnoticed benefit of the FP is the consistency. When you roll vast numbers of dice for each attach with your units you remove the danger of spikes and "one-roll" do or die situations. You embrace the bell curve and can confidently make tactical moves knowing that eventually the averages will play out because you are attacking so many times as opposed to the "all or nothing" of big models that do large damage only if they hit and then wound. Frankly most warmachines have the same weakness, that's why the FP base units are amazing. It may not be flashy, it may not be epic, but it is consistent and even the most average FP player with a decent list will never be in the position where they are winning or losing on just a few dice rolls. 

 With that in mind, any points you spend on allies like wizards, or ironweld is wasting the strength of the faction because they do not benefit from the Freeguild buffs and synergy. The only exception to this could be perhaps be a jade wizard to goose the wound rolls for a unit well placed in an Alpha-strike, but even then it would be points better spent on more FP units. 

I hope this helps!   

 

P.S. Greatswords are fine units, but they can't compete with Guard, Crossbows, or even Gunners when considered across a whole battle as opposed to the damage they can do in ideal situations where can attack perfectly. Their lack of a ranged attack and cost mean they should only be picked for make up the requirements for a Freeguild battalion.  Just like the Demigryphs, Gen/Griffon they look amazing and can be fun, but they are a point sink for the unwary player. 

[carloff]

On 7/14/2018 at 2:21 AM, Matador said:

 hope this helps!

 

Yes, it helps a lot! But how many Generals do you have? 1 or 2? What if an opponent is focused to kill him/them? Do you take Flag of Conquerers? 

[Matador]

On 7/20/2018 at 5:19 AM, carloff said:

Yes, it helps a lot! But how many Generals do you have? 1 or 2? What if an opponent is focused to kill him/them? Do you take Flag of Conquerers? 

Well lets see, if I'm running with the Freeguild battalion I usually only have one general because of cost.  While he is fantastic the units can still stand up quite on their own if he gets punked. That said, it is important to hold on to him and his buffs as long as possible and not stick him out there on his own waiting to be whacked.  For that reason almost half the time I put him on foot instead of horseback and keep him right up against the back of large units. His movement is the same as theirs, keep in mind that to do this you HAVE to have a solid plan and tacits because you won't be able to just zip him around the board. 

I've only taken the Flag on one occasion and realized afterward that I would have won the battle 1 round earlier if I had the 'Writ of Dominion', so I don't take it any more, the 'Stately banner' gives great buff for free as well. If you don't want to take the 'Writ' (although I really really suggest it). Take another item to buff the general up, or use one of the new Real items like the Uglu Hide that lets him fly and give +4 move.  

The key is to keep him from being spotted by shooters, and surrounded by melee away from his troops. 

The griffon guy is pretty as I've said but really you will want the vanilla general and to spend those points on terrifying blocks of Freeguild troops!  

 

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

On 7/13/2018 at 5:17 AM, divineauthority said:

I disagree with Matador, I think crossbowmen definitely have their place but I still prefer Handgunners to back up Guard. It's not too difficult to get them hitting on 3's wounding on 2s and with a rend of -1 as standard, not relying on 6's. You may find that crossbowmen could be more useful at smaller point levels though to give you the mobility to cap objectives. Hold the Line doesn't allow you to move or charge so you may run the risk of your army being to static.

I've found Demigryphs to be really useful in smaller games, in a Path to Glory game just last night for example they managed to delete blocks of 20 Clanrats at will it seemed.

The General on Griffon can still be viable at 1000 points, with the changes to the Great Company rules, there are a fair few Free Peoples players now looking at running multiple Griffons in a 2000 point list.

Wizards are going to always be useful with all the changes to magic in AoS2 and the battlemage has the benefit of having a wide selection of spells to pick from.

If I personally were to tweak your list a bit, I'd be tempted to drop the Helstorm and add a General on foot/horse in (keep the Griffon to run with the Demigryphs). Then add another unit of Handgunners/Crossbowmen or Guard in so that you can form a great company. I think that would even leave enough points to add something like the Soulsnare Shackles spell in!

Another thing to think about is maybe giving the Guard swords or at least some of them as that improves their save in combat and allows them to hold out a bit longer whilst the Handgunners/Crosswbowmen rip them to shreds.

Hey, could you tell me what your PtG list looks like? I don't want to bog this thread down with out of context stuff (or is it really out of context?) but I've been able to get next to no engagement with other AoS players about it and I'm interested in knowing what sort of experiences others have had!

[divineauthority]

On 7/22/2018 at 1:35 AM, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Hey, could you tell me what your PtG list looks like? I don't want to bog this thread down with out of context stuff (or is it really out of context?) but I've been able to get next to no engagement with other AoS players about it and I'm interested in knowing what sort of experiences others have had!

I just started with what I'd already got painted (which was a lot of stuff from the great cities box).

So my starting list was :

• Freeguild General (with indomitable command trait and the Ghyran relic which gives you +1 to hit and wound)
• 10 Handgunners
• Battlemage
• 3 Demigryph Knights (count as 2 picks)

Drew my first game against Skaven and added 10 Guard with sword and shield. Lost my second game (sacrifice battleplan so I was without my wizard as the General is more useful for the army and the other player was another unit up) and from that with my second glory point I've added a Steam Tank.

I'm ultimately building up to a mixed Order Greywater Fastness list so I've got a Lord Ordinator, 3 Ballistas, Knight Incantor, Everblaze Comet and Knight Azyros sat waiting on my painting table as well as another 10 Handgunners.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

Thank you! That's largely what I've been going for with my force as well, though I'm starting out with Sancrosact models since we're basically playing with the Soul Wars contents.  For added fun we're randomizing the reinforcements by rolling on the tables and I'm going to be adding solely from the Human Order ones.

[Dynas]

Great stuff Matador. Play mostly 40k, but fantasy was my real love before it died. Finally with some fluff and rules added I  too am returning and looking to dust off the old Empire. I have a broad range. A few things on spells, as V2 definitely seems to be more magic focused. What wizards do you think are good? You mention the Jade wizard Lifeform for the Heal & 6+ Ward Save spell. Would Beast be good for buffing a melee unit? Shadow with the Myustifing Miasma seems good as well with the -1 to hit making units even more durable. 

As for the general, why no horse? its free, he can move faster if needed. Also the banner seems good? Would you use Foot with "writ" and Indomitable trait?

With the new Realm domains, which if any, would you think would be best for FP?

Lastly, Pistoliers vs Outriders, which is better, I am leaning towards pistoliers myself.

[Matador]

On 7/24/2018 at 7:08 AM, Dynas said:

Great stuff Matador. Play mostly 40k, but fantasy was my real love before it died. Finally with some fluff and rules added I  too am returning and looking to dust off the old Empire. I have a broad range. A few things on spells, as V2 definitely seems to be more magic focused. What wizards do you think are good? You mention the Jade wizard Lifeform for the Heal & 6+ Ward Save spell. Would Beast be good for buffing a melee unit? Shadow with the Myustifing Miasma seems good as well with the -1 to hit making units even more durable. 

As for the general, why no horse? its free, he can move faster if needed. Also the banner seems good? Would you use Foot with "writ" and Indomitable trait?

With the new Realm domains, which if any, would you think would be best for FP?

Lastly, Pistoliers vs Outriders, which is better, I am leaning towards pistoliers myself.

Thanks, 

With a FP army the only wiz and spell I'd take is the Amber guy for wildform, but even then I'm hesitant because of the cost and because properly built FP armies can buff the heck out of themselves.  Since second edition one factor that does weigh in favor of buying mage is so that you will have the opportunity to steer/use any endless spells your opponent may cast, but even then I tend to focus on running the FP units instead. But there is a stronger argument for them now.  I don't spend a ton of resources on things that may make units more durable because FP units are pretty weak there and the effort will only yield moderate results for way to much cost in points, actions, etc... so no miasma for me or even Guard units with sword and shield, those only grant the buffs during melee and the units can get torn up waiting for it, so go for the militia weapon option. 

The general is off the horse so that he can't be easily spotted and seen by the opponents snipers, spells, etc...  as I've said before it does require foresight and tactical awareness to make sure he is where he needs to be to crack off his command abilities, and those are of much more importance them him using the horse to run into combat.  General needs to buff, his troops do the killing with FP armies.

Chamon is a good realm, the Hydroxskin cloak can give your general some maneuverability and still help him keep the low profile cover. The General should also take the stately banner in the gear option slot. 

I don't touch indomitable, I'd for the the veteran for the command point chances or the free triumph ( +1 wound for an entire unit is gold when used at the right moment. )

I agree with the pistoliers , versus the Outriders but they are much as muchness in the end, when I end up taking them it usually is just to make up the units for the battalion, granted they are excellent for closing very quickly while shooting and charging to clean up a poorly placed hero/mage or war machine crews.  Not to mention handy for grabbing objectives, though I think the FP player does better to concentrate on wiping the opponent off the table before  round 5 .  

 

 

[Motley]

16 hours ago, Matador said:

so go for the militia weapon option

Hi Matador thanks for your insights. While I know I should be focusing on my Deepkin I keep getting drawn back into doing a small Freeguild force as I always like the old Empire and now I like the idea of the lowly humans standing up to the fantastical. Your point have given me some food for thought and seems to run counter to a lot of the other advice I have seen  out there on Freeguild.

I do have a question though, the Militia option? How come? I completely dismissed it. My first thought was halberds for the rend, then I was convinced of the value of Sword for the extra parry. What benefit do militia weapons give? You loose the shield option too. Is it just counting in the extra shooting attack into the damage? I basically see the base 5+ and think it will never hit. But then I guess if there are 30 of them it is a 3+. (I am not sure you can count on the 40 bonus as it only takes one wound to loose it).

[Matador]

On 7/26/2018 at 6:45 AM, Motley said:

Hi Matador thanks for your insights. While I know I should be focusing on my Deepkin I keep getting drawn back into doing a small Freeguild force as I always like the old Empire and now I like the idea of the lowly humans standing up to the fantastical. Your point have given me some food for thought and seems to run counter to a lot of the other advice I have seen  out there on Freeguild.

I do have a question though, the Militia option? How come? I completely dismissed it. My first thought was halberds for the rend, then I was convinced of the value of Sword for the extra parry. What benefit do militia weapons give? You loose the shield option too. Is it just counting in the extra shooting attack into the damage? I basically see the base 5+ and think it will never hit. But then I guess if there are 30 of them it is a 3+. (I am not sure you can count on the 40 bonus as it only takes one wound to loose it).

Yeesh, I just wrote a wall of text laying out the specifics of this before accidentally hitting the function keys and wiping it all..... maybe the gods of AOS wished to spare you my extending number crunching blather!

So the short and sweet version is:

 

You almost always want to use Guard with Militia weapons because it gives them a ranged attack along with their melee attack. This will more than double their damage output because even beyond shooting phases, every model in the unit can shoot through themselves again, even when the line is tied up in melee.  While the opponent is trying to pile in enough to get more units hitting you can keep tight and model drain for the front after attacks and still unload everyone shooting as well.  

Additionally, I love 40 units but I don't count on them getting there at full force, but that's no sweat because as you know the Guard get a +1 to hit for the 20 models, +2 for 30,  and the blanket +1 to hit for the battalion your Guard will be able to shoot 2's or 3's to hit at 14 inches. 14 inches being that sweet spot of getting to peppered the ****** out of them before they can close, or charge (majority) and even then they trigger the sweet death of great company's 'lend support' fire.   And of course these numbers are before we used any command points, items or spells.. These guys can be brutal shooters with very small effort. 

While the sword and shield are initially tempting, it's a trap because it halfs your potentially damage output and the save bonuses only apply to melee combat, making it hardly worth the trade.  Your giving away over half your possible Damage output for a small save buff that applies to less than half the save you will need to make over the course of a match. 

Same goes for the Halberd, your giving away over half your possible inciting chances (hits) for a small increase (16-25%) on the back end after you halfed the chances to get there. If the Halberds had the spear's range it would be a closer call.  But now? nope. 

Shield is sweet, no doubt. But Guard are going to die plan and simple and in droves no matter what once they engage. So with the match-view the best outcome is to put out the most buff, command, and spell buffed damage at twice the rate and 14 inch range before that happens because you will only be getting 33% of a 16% payback from the shield. Not a good exchange. 

Hope that helps, gotta go! 

[Sequitor]

Hey, 

i just answer in this thread, cause its awesome. And im interested to play free peoples instead of Stormcasts.

 

my first list will be:

General on Horse

30 Guards

30 X-Bows

10 Handgunners

 

Allies: Knight Incantor 

Endless Spell: Everblaze  Comet

 

with the Caster i have a 1 Time autoban, selfkilling mortalwoundflasks, a storm which inflicts MW‘s and slow the Enemy down + the Comet which inflicts MW‘s too and a little zoning potential for my gunline  

What do you think?

[Saxon]

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 12:08 AM, Dynas said:

Lastly, Pistoliers vs Outriders, which is better, I am leaning towards pistoliers myself.

I've had a lot of trouble getting either to work for me. The short range of the pistoliers is troublesome as they essentially have to run once, shoot and charge or be charged the following turn by whatever they shoot. 

With the loss of the knights it's hard to find a place for horse in most games in my opinion. 

[Saxon]

On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 8:19 AM, Sequitor said:

Hey, 

i just answer in this thread, cause its awesome. And im interested to play free peoples instead of Stormcasts.

 

my first list will be:

General on Horse

30 Guards

30 X-Bows

10 Handgunners

 

Allies: Knight Incantor 

Endless Spell: Everblaze  Comet

 

with the Caster i have a 1 Time autoban, selfkilling mortalwoundflasks, a storm which inflicts MW‘s and slow the Enemy down + the Comet which inflicts MW‘s too and a little zoning potential for my gunline  

What do you think?

I'd be going with more handgunners than crossbows for the rend against non-shooty armies.

I played stormcast on the weekend with raptors (18 inch range) and the crossbowmen with slightly more range were able to do better than my gunners limited to 16. You get bonuses to stand still most of the time so you don't want to have to move your boys into range and then shoot with reduced hit rolls.

The other consideration is having only a single screening unit of guards. In 1000pts i'd always run 2 units of at least 20 models to screen my shooty-boys. Using a great company trait when opponents engage guards in melee is fantastic. However, if you can't tie up enough units, your shooters are extremely vulnerable. Think ironjawz brutes, they can be brutal. Make sure you have a piper to dish out some pain before they get to hit you!

Good choice with the spells IMO, free guild do not do a lot of Mortal Wounds which can be a problem.