Why is it so hard to start AOS ?

[bsharitt]

8 minutes ago, Saiken said:

Plus there is definitely some mixed-signals. Just think about this : Spiderfang Grots have a Start Collecting Box ...  

Technically they have an allies box. Even the Giants and Warherd have an allies box. The intent is actually the exact opposite of a start collecting box(even if some of them work as a starting point) where instead of being a starting point of an army, it's more offered as an add of models to an existing army.

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

I don't see why the Core book and this year's General's Handbook couldn't have just been combined. But that's neither here nor there.

Because people will buy them separately and GW will make more money selling them that way.  Sounds cynical but it is probably the closest thing to the naked truth.

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, blueshirtman said:

Yeah, I pre ordered the GHB hoping there would be updates to BCR stuff in it, and maybe the changes to destruction etc. Now it feels like I bought the wrong book. Probablly should have ordered the core book instead of the GHB, and just get the changed points costs from somewhere.

I understand your dilemma and I sympathize with you.  In general for most miniature games an excellent rule of thumb is to always start with the core rulebook (in some format) - if there is one.  Nine times out of ten that is the best place to begin and will get you the most mileage.

[Rob Hawkins]

At the end of the day, this is first and foremost a hobby game.  You will probably spend more time painting expensive models than you will spend playing games.  Pick an army that you think looks great, and that you think will maintain your excitement to continue building and painting for many years.  The rules will change, but if you enjoy your models, you will never go wrong.

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, Saiken said:

Plus there is definitely some mixed-signals. Just think about this : Spiderfang Grots have a Start Collecting Box ... 

Two things on this:

1.  They are technically a complete army - albeit pretty much the smallest possible way to get a full army.  They have a battle line unit, they have a hero with a command ability, they have a giant monster, and they also have a wizard.  So you can field a full army of them (it also visually looks awesome).  Now, who knows when, if ever, they get expanded into a fully fleshed out faction.

2.  That start-collecting box they have is actually one of the "Ally" boxes.  It seems like they have discontinued a lot of those - but the Spiderfang box is still around.  But regardless of what it is, that box is an absurdly good deal in regards to price.

[Nin Win]

If I was starting destruction I'd get that box for sure.  Though I can't speak to it's usefulness for tournaments.
Arachnorak Shaman

2 units of 5 spider riders

chains or maelstrom for the last 20 points

500 points of hilarious <-- might not be what everyone wants out of the game

[Lord_Skrolk]

So thrilled to come across discussion of Spiderfang unexpectedly in this thread, Spiders for the Spider God! 

Nighthaunt are the "hot new thing" from GW. Spiderfang is a leftover WFB faction with 0 support from GW. And yet when I played my first matchup of AoS 2.0 this weekend with my pure Spiderfang list, I delivered a beating to a  good player with a Nighthaunt force with all the new models. 

Point being, every faction can beat every other faction. There is literally no army I would tell someone to avoid (unless its some super weird niche like Thunderscorn) if they love the look of it. 

AoS is far from perfectly balanced. But its "good enough" unless you want to win major tournaments that you can always have fun matches with friends

[dmorley21]

4 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Because people will buy them separately and GW will make more money selling them that way.  Sounds cynical but it is probably the closest thing to the naked truth.

I believe you're 100% correct.

However, I was viewing AoS 2.0 as a growth initiative. It seemed as if they were trying to get more people into the hobby, maybe trying to bring back some of the WHFB players who refused to buy what Sigmar was selling. If we assume that was the goal, you know your current players are hooked, and you want to bring in as many players as possible.  The market is already pretty darn niche, so you want to remove as many barriers as possible. Lets take a look at what they've done:

Two easy to assemble, easy to paint armies in the starter box with that both have unique draws. Great!

A free set of rules. Great!

Free rules for each specific unit, all available on an app on your mobile device. Great!

A core rule book for the game if you want to know the background of the setting, armies, and want more nuanced rules. Great!

A specific rule book (battle tome) for your army if you really want to know the ins and outs of your army. Okay. Sure, I guess that makes sense.

An additional rule book if you want to play competitive or evenly matched games. Plus some additional extra ways to play. Wait a second. I already have the rule book, don't I?

An expansion to the game, that features a different type of magic that even if you don't want to use, some of your opponents probably will. So yeah, you really ought to get this too. Huh?

Also, if you check out our official website. Well, actually, there's three official websites you should check out (GW.com, WH-Community, AoS.com). Huh?

Anyway, there's four grand alliances in the game. Each alliance has specific factions. Depending on which website you look at, there's x amount of factions or y amount of factions. Huh?

All of the factions are supported! But some only have models from a previous game, and some will never get new models again! Wait a second.

 

 

This all does make it overwhelming to get into. And you can say buy an army, paint it, play it if it looks cool. But that's a lot of money and time to sink into something I may not enjoy, or rather money and time I may end up wishing I had sunk into a different army.

When I got into WHFB, I was in middle school. 6th Editon had just dropped - the only armies out at the time were Empire, Orcs & Goblins, Dwarfs, and maybe one other. But I liked the Lizardmen. So I bought some of their stuff, only to realize I really didn't have much to choose from and it was not nearly as cool as my buddy's O&G army that had a ton of cool plastics and was really diverse. So when Vampire Counts came out, I jumped ship.

Also, many of you are saying it's a painting hobby and it seems like GW agreed when they launched AoS. That lost me. I got into the game because I loved strategy games. Axis & Allies, Age of Empires II, Pokemon Cards, Magic the Gathering, Starcraft. None of those offered the type of game play that WHFB was offering. I only ever played in one official, competitive event; but the rules mattered to me and still matter to me.

 

TL; DR: While many of you have pointed out different ways to get into the hobby, it is hard for some of us to get into the hobby. And if we're on these boards saying that, you know it's hard for some people who aren't on these boards. GW has made some good steps, but can still do better, and a refresh of the game seemed like an opportune time to do that.

[MightyMetro]

5 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Because people will buy them separately and GW will make more money selling them that way.  Sounds cynical but it is probably the closest thing to the naked truth.

I think GW are damned if they do, damned if they dont.  Do you think the community would be happier with less in the core rules and more in the GHb? 

If the corebox had only introduced open and narrative play, the GH would have maintained its status as the yearly match play update. However, i believe there would have been complaints.  

Alternatively, if the GH was included in the core rules, a significant section of the book would be invalidated within 12 months. Complaints

How about putting all the alligences, artifacts and spell lores  in the HB? Would people pick up all the models from Malign Sorcery, probably not to the same extent. GW will have to push to make cinematic magic a success long term. 

Perhaps, skirmish and path to glory could have been revamped more extensively for the HB rather than their inclusion in Malign Sorcery.  This is the best solution i could come up with. However, i realise that GW have to release and update continuously aos to maintain the community.  If we get everything now, we may feel abandoned again in future.

of course, gw  make  more money this year due to this breakdown of releases, its why they do what they do.  They could have offered a cut price HB this year with limited content, but due to alternative sources of points and the amount of leaks these days, it wouldnt have sold well, i believe.  And 12 months later, again there would be complaints... “why has the price gone up?”

 

Now, dont get me wrong.  All of these updates are expensive. As a natural completionist, i want it all. Frankly, at the moment, i cant justify paying all that money in one month.  So, i decided that i would put off Malign Sorcery for a month or two while i got Soul Wars ready for the table.  Within days of the release, my new Nighthaunts had army specific Endless Spells announced and i was reconsidering my options, perhaps, i can give the Malign Sorcery kit a miss in favor of these, i tell myself.

As a community, we have really been spoiled for choice this year.  If you look outside AOS, there is also Bloodbowl, Shadespire (Season 2?), Necromunda, adeptus titanicus, kill team and all that awesome new scenery, kill team: rogue trader. Thats not even mentioning 40k which feels abandoned next to AOS this year... is gw feeding the community too much, too fast?  

Will we find ourself exhausted?  Just as Marvel superhero movies will fade in popularity,  like the Western before them, will GWs release rate turn off aome consumers?

[Overread]

I think the rate might turn some away, but most will be encouraged by it. Don't forget that most people only collect a segment of the whole GW product range, so a faster turn around on all fronts means a greater chance of them getting something for their niche of the market.

The only ones that will be hard hit are, as you say, those who have a  very broad taste in the companies products. That said those who have and are able to afford such an interest are likely not going to be turned away. Focus their buying habits yes, but they are already a heavily committed fan so they will likely just enjoy the faster releases.

 

 

And some will get burn-out but that's always possible even without fast releases.

 

To be honest my main worry is that GW releases too many games/armies and finds itself unable to update the existing ones with new models/re-sculpts etc... 

[Skabnoze]

I won't say that the game is not more expensive and that GW has not spread rules across multiple products with the Age of Sigmar 2 launch.  That is obviously the case and it is obvious that GW did it with a profit motivation in mind.

But one thing to keep in mind is that this is a full new edition release.  These are once per edition purchases.  It might seem like product overload since this all came out as an upfront purchase, but aside from the yearly GHB you won't have to get any of these again until there is another edition released.

[erasercrumbs]

On 7/4/2018 at 4:13 PM, stratigo said:

I have a different view. A year is a long time to be good or bad in my opinion.

I approach wargaming with the patience of a Sylvaneth. I started collecting Tyranids in Second Edition 40k, and watched them sit as the tragic opera clowns of GW for well over a decade.  A year or two of not being a top tier army is inconsequential to an old blood like myself.