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Why is it so hard to start AOS ?


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54 minutes ago, stratigo said:

What's your definition of quick? Like, Tzeentch has been top meta since it's book came out to the start of 2.0, and they remain a really solid pick for competitive play.

There are of course anomalies, and it takes time for each book to fully establish into the meta. Most people I see in the hobby are not painting one whole army every year or even in two years. 

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40 minutes ago, Barkanaut said:

There's some solid indication they are beginning to think about updating some of the AoS armies again. Fyreslayers, Kharadron, and I think one other have been named dropped as being planned now. So if this chatter is true then we'll likely see some updates next year which is great if its true. However I suspect its BS so don't take this too seriously. 

I would expect Ironjawz in that mix as well.  They were one of the earliest Age of Sigmar armies to be released and they have only a small number of kits.  That army is ripe for a new book and a mini model release.

FyreSlayers are in about the same place.  Kharadron Overlords are fairly new, but that army book has been severely impacted by errata.  Anyone buying that book has a bunch of invalidated stuff that they will need to track down the updates for.  A couple new units would not hurt, but they don’t overly need models.  They do need a book pretty badly though.

I would also not rule out the factions that were opportunity releases without new models that still have a bunch of resin kits.  Those armies could be rapidly updated and I am sure that GW would like to shed the resin kits from their ranges.  So for example, Bonesplitterz, Beastclaw, or Flesh Eaters.

They could also mix in some book updates for middle-era books that do not need any model updates.  Things like Sylvaneth.  It would not be tough to slot some book drops into release windows like they did last year for 40k.

New editions are typically when you see book rewrites happen and Age of Sigmar has a lot of books that do not fit the current mold for what constitutes a Battletome.  Also bear in mind that they probably will want to make endless spells for most factions and those are most likely to accompany some form of book.

I expect that the current competitive faction ranking is going to get shook up quite a bit fairly quickly.

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7 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

I think it depends a bit on what you mean by "start AoS".  And by "newcomer" I guess.

100% this.  I think even the start collecting sets could be a little daunting for some new players.  

For someone new to miniature wargaming, id suggest the New Starting Warhammer magazine, with the cool Knight Incantor on the front, and a copy of the Storm Strike when they arrive.  Not too expensive, all push fit and the new player can get the basics clear in their head.

An undercoat spray, a brush and bottle of Nighthaunt Gloom paint would be the first paints id recommend.  Seeing how easy it is to get the NH painted would have inspired me back when i got started. GE made a great decision choosing NH for the starter kits for this reason.

I guess that all this will hit about £50.  An awesome gift for a young starter.

Next steps, a repackaged Shadespire warband with Skirmish or a SC depending on the players level of investment. Its also time to think about paints.  Encourage the player to think outside the box.  For example, picked up Space Wolves Paint Set when i returned to the hobby with Storm of Sigmar

The new Soul Wars box is beautiful and has great value, but my goodness there is a lot in there for a first timer.  Must be  kind of daunting. 

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I don't know... I didn't have any trouble getting in and have been spreading the love since I discovered Wargaming with Age of Sigmar, 2 years ago, at 36 years of age. I had never played anything like it, fact is I barley played any board games growing up. I was a Nintendo then Playstation kid, video games where my thing. Once I walked into a Games Workshop and was blown away by all of it, I had to dive in and give it a go.  I was perfectly happy with the original AoS starter set and some youtube videos to get me started. Found a local Games shop, made new friends and really delved into the hobby and gaming. I've been buying the Battletomes, Realm Gate War Campaign books and novels. Stormcast and Khorne where my default main armies since I started with the Starter set and expanded both armies to 2000 points. Recently I splurged and put together a Tzeetch army and now I splurged again and got the Soul Wars stuff! 

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1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

I would expect Ironjawz in that mix as well.  They were one of the earliest Age of Sigmar armies to be released and they have only a small number of kits.  That army is ripe for a new book and a mini model release.

FyreSlayers are in about the same place.  Kharadron Overlords are fairly new, but that army book has been severely impacted by errata.  Anyone buying that book has a bunch of invalidated stuff that they will need to track down the updates for.  A couple new units would not hurt, but they don’t overly need models.  They do need a book pretty badly though.

I would also not rule out the factions that were opportunity releases without new models that still have a bunch of resin kits.  Those armies could be rapidly updated and I am sure that GW would like to shed the resin kits from their ranges.  So for example, Bonesplitterz, Beastclaw, or Flesh Eaters.

They could also mix in some book updates for middle-era books that do not need any model updates.  Things like Sylvaneth.  It would not be tough to slot some book drops into release windows like they did last year for 40k.

New editions are typically when you see book rewrites happen and Age of Sigmar has a lot of books that do not fit the current mold for what constitutes a Battletome.  Also bear in mind that they probably will want to make endless spells for most factions and those are most likely to accompany some form of book.

I expect that the current competitive faction ranking is going to get shook up quite a bit fairly quickly.

Ko are not in a great spot variety wise. We do need new models since everything is some variation of mixed melee/ranged. We also don’t have enough anti-magi. The only good thing we ever did was shooting and we don’t even have that. We lack the ability to make more varied lists. Despite the big roster only a few of it will ever be used because so much of it overlap in its roles. Dedicated combat vessel wold not go amiss. Dedicated melee troops and an elite melee troop would be great. Same with more anti-magic units and ships. Finally as a personal one I want to see a Barak-Mhornar character. 

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26 minutes ago, Barkanaut said:

Ko are not in a great spot variety wise. We do need new models since everything is some variation of mixed melee/ranged. We also don’t have enough anti-magi. The only good thing we ever did was shooting and we don’t even have that. We lack the ability to make more varied lists. Despite the big roster only a few of it will ever be used because so much of it overlap in its roles. Dedicated combat vessel wold not go amiss. Dedicated melee troops and an elite melee troop would be great. Same with more anti-magic units and ships. Finally as a personal one I want to see a Barak-Mhornar character. 

I won’t argue with you on any of that.  When I meant that they don’t necessarily need new models I meant purely in terms of number of kits.  If you look at the number of kits then they are around where GW seems to be aiming for new faction releases such as Idoneth Deepkin or Daughters of Khaine.  Stormcast and some of the Chaos forces seem like outliers to me with the volume of kits.

Now that does not mean that in variety of function the KO are in a good place.  There is certainly room for growth in terms of unit choices, but I don’t think that is their real issue right now.

I am certainly not a Kharadron expert, but it seems to me that the issue is mainly that GW tried to design an army with a very unique playstyle that worked counter to how the game mainly plays and it simply did not come out right on the first try.  It feels like they had some good ideas but unfortunately poor execution.

I would heartily cheer for a new Kharadron battletome because it feels to me that they need to take that army back to the design drawing board.  And it is also a shame if an army with such a fun and unique theme and aesthetic has so many rules and play issues in the game.  It is hard to look at those models and not want to invest in some of them.

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If you want to run a competitive army, chances are, if you don't have it already built and painted, it'll be outdated/nerfed by the time you are done preparing your miniatures.

So I think your main focus should be going for an army you enjoy the playstyle of, on top of that, you can easily convert models to be unique, then you can use them as "counts as" units in other armies as well :), so that may be something you could consider doing.

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17 hours ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Well, @The Jabber Tzeentch posted the most important guide IMO, but this should help also (out soon in July) : 

 

AoSGettingStartedMagWithMini-Jul1-Content1yj.jpg

The previous version of this was one of the best publications I've ever seen from GW. It really hurt the mark and could be handed to new players to give them a great intro.  I bought several copies and have them to new people. I'll be doing the same with this version if it's as good.

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On 7/4/2018 at 12:02 PM, Saiken said:

@The Jabber Tzeentch, see the problem I have with this is  .... How are you going to justify this reasoning for people who think that Bretonnia or Tomb Kings look hella cool ?
" The Rule of Cool" cannot be the only factor.

I was planning to start a Brayherd army as I think (on my book) it's one of the coolest looking army. But the lack of support makes me fear we are facing another Tomb King type of faction ...


@Overread Thanks for your write up. I'm glad you share my feeling about all this. And the methods you posted are definitely worth taking a look at.

True like or dislike, I would never say to a new player destruction and specially BCR are a good way to start with AoS.

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I agree with these sentiments. I'm still deciding between three armies (Nighthaunt, Sylvaneth, Khardron Overlords).

It took me a long time to navigate between what all the different armies are. It was also confusing to how the armies from WHFB got split into different forces.

My biggest challenge with getting started at this point is the amount of books I need to buy. It seems that a battletome and the general's handbook are musts, but that the core book and malign sorcery are things that really ought to be bought too. 

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58 minutes ago, Karol said:

True like or dislike, I would never say to a new player destruction and specially BCR are a good way to start with AoS.

I don’t see why not if they like the armies, especially the ones with battletomes. Just because they’re not considered top tier competitively doesn’t mean people can’t enjoy them. 

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Just now, dmorley21 said:

I agree with these sentiments. I'm still deciding between three armies (Nighthaunt, Sylvaneth, Khardron Overlords).

It took me a long time to navigate between what all the different armies are. It was also confusing to how the armies from WHFB got split into different forces.

My biggest challenge with getting started at this point is the amount of books I need to buy. It seems that a battletome and the general's handbook are musts, but that the core book and malign sorcery are things that really ought to be bought too. 

That is an issue at the moment, although it’s mostly an issue for the more competitive gamers.

The core book OR the Generals handbook are advisable for Battleplans and allegiance abilities of some kind. Although you can make do with just your battletome if it has abilities in it. 

However you can still play matched play just with the Azyr App, and you won’t be at as much of a disadvantage as people might make out. 

Malign sorcery is not required, although it would be wise to have an idea of the rules. 

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1 hour ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

I don’t see why not if they like the armies, especially the ones with battletomes. Just because they’re not considered top tier competitively doesn’t mean people can’t enjoy them. 

It is really hard to enjoy BCR.

 

1 hour ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

However you can still play matched play just with the Azyr App, and you won’t be at as much of a disadvantage as people might make out. 

how would you get the stats for the units? you can't check battalion legality in the app, or stuff like how many upgrades per squads are legal. The extra relics, realm powers,spells etc are more then enough to shift the game in favor of the person who has the book.

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1 hour ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

That is an issue at the moment, although it’s mostly an issue for the more competitive gamers.

The core book OR the Generals handbook are advisable for Battleplans and allegiance abilities of some kind. Although you can make do with just your battletome if it has abilities in it. 

However you can still play matched play just with the Azyr App, and you won’t be at as much of a disadvantage as people might make out. 

Malign sorcery is not required, although it would be wise to have an idea of the rules. 

Rules and strategy are what got me into the hobby, and are what I enjoy the most. So while I currently only play a couple times a year with my buddies, I want to know/have the rules - all of them. And now I need 4 books/expansions in order to do so - and the second edition literally just began. There's ways around it, but you won't get all of the rules. It's a bit ridiculous IMO.

I don't see why the Core book and this year's General's Handbook couldn't have just been combined. But that's neither here nor there.

The truth remains that while Age of Sigmar may be doing better than WHFB was, it's still a tough hobby to get into for a lot of people for a lot of different reasons.

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13 minutes ago, Karol said:

It is really hard to enjoy BCR.

I think it does depend a lot on the person. they aren't very fun to play with, but if someone likes painting it matters little I guess.

 

8 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

I don't see why the Core book and this year's General's Handbook couldn't have just been combined. But that's neither here nor there.

Yeah, I pre ordered the GHB hoping there would be updates to BCR stuff in it, and maybe the changes to destruction etc. Now it feels like I bought the wrong book. Probablly should have ordered the core book instead of the GHB, and just get the changed points costs from somewhere.

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2 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

I think it does depend a lot on the person. they aren't very fun to play with, but if someone likes painting it matters little I guess.

 

Yeah, I pre ordered the GHB hoping there would be updates to BCR stuff in it, and maybe the changes to destruction etc. Now it feels like I bought the wrong book. Probablly should have ordered the core book instead of the GHB, and just get the changed points costs from somewhere.

That's one of my worries. The closest GW store to me is a touch over a 3 hour drive and the only semi-local gaming store doesn't have any of the books opened to look through, so it's hard for me to figure out which books I should buy.

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10 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

It's not hard to start, see cool models, buy cool models, paint cool models, roll dice :D 

Yeah that's where I've been trying to go.

It's hard to start and immediately be a good player with a top army that is perfectly suited to your preferred aesthetic and playstyle.

It's easy to start if you have reasonable expectations.

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3 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Yeah that's where I've been trying to go.

It's hard to start and immediately be a good player with a top army that is perfectly suited to your preferred aesthetic and playstyle.

It's easy to start if you have reasonable expectations.

In a game with such rich lore, amazing worlds, gripping characters and stunning models to back it all up who is worrying about being a top player? Enjoy the gorgeous game for what it is :D

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3 hours ago, Karol said:

It is really hard to enjoy BCR.

 

how would you get the stats for the units? you can't check battalion legality in the app, or stuff like how many upgrades per squads are legal. The extra relics, realm powers,spells etc are more then enough to shift the game in favor of the person who has the book.

I have played against and know plenty others who enjoy playing with their BCR armies. And I’ve enjoyed playing against them. 

The App has all the unit stats and points costs if you pay 99p a month subscription. 

GW give a lot out for free, enough that you can play well enough whilst you discover what armies styles you like the most. After that you will naturally look to get a battletome for battalion rules, GHB for allegiance abilities, malign sorcery for additional artefacts. 

My point is that you don’t need these things to start and learn the game. 

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21 minutes ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

I have played against and know plenty others who enjoy playing with their BCR armies. And I’ve enjoyed playing against them. 

The App has all the unit stats and points costs if you pay 99p a month subscription. 

GW give a lot out for free, enough that you can play well enough whilst you discover what armies styles you like the most. After that you will naturally look to get a battletome for battalion rules, GHB for allegiance abilities, malign sorcery for additional artefacts. 

My point is that you don’t need these things to start and learn the game. 

Also, as of now, the "My Battle" component of the app is allowing me to see the profiles (as a non-Azyr subscriber). So at no cost, you can get all the individual unit warscrolls in the app as well as their points. Battalions cost money, but that has always been the case anyway.

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Exactly @The Jabber Tzeentch. Small steps: download the core rules (now with battleplan, so you can play something else than "kill them all") and warscrolls for units you want to use. That's everything you need for learning. Then buy Core Book or GHB if you want to play with allegiances.(dependent on your budget and army choice - if you have chosen faction without abilities then it should be core book as it has GA alegiance abilities). I started my adventure with Skaven by buying "Spire of Dawn" set. Is that competitive army in that form? Absolutely not. Is it fun? Definitely! It all depends how competitive is your environment. If you're playing with close group of friends then a little chat of "don't bring Nagash to our non-tournament games" will do.

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There's no real penalty to pushing the contents of a BCR start collecting box up against, say, a Slaves to Darkness start collecting box.  Have a nice game. 

Competitive, and even playstyle, are concepts for later.  Not for starting players - for progressing players headed to the next level.

There's also a very heavy local "meta"/mindset disconnect here too I think.  I've never lived in a group where someone who loved BCR and had a matched play army of them could look forward to playing against a hard-as-nails tournament-honed list week after week after week with no respite.  So I can't really fathom what it would be like to face such unrelenting overwhelming force.  People in the two groups I've been part of will frequently mess about with gimmick lists, or deliberately bring sub-optimal stuff "just for funzies" and have a laugh - especially if they know they are going to be playing someone who has had a bad run, or whose army roster isn't all the way up to standard.  Or play doubles matches, where weaknesses can be covered by each other.  Or Malign Portents, where many of the BCR (for example) weaknesses can be hidden by the special rules.  Folks with sub-optimal armies might not win 50-50, but there would still be plenty of chances to win games.

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Thanks guys for all these great insights and answers.  I really didn't think this topic would blow up like this.

It's true that I might not be very representative of most people starting the hobby. Yet I think I'm representative of a portion of the newcomers, who - if they they dive into a hobby - don't necessarily want to fool around. And it's true that it has to do with a competitive mindset.

 

But then again, I still convinced that the "Rule of Cool" is more of a Hobby (painting aspect) tip than anything.
I still have a hard time understanding how building a super low model-count army - even a cool looking one - could be satisfying in terms of playing the game as of today.

 

Last thing is, it seems to be the consensus here that no army is going to disappear anymore. Yet, I would love to hear that clearly from GW.
They've been doing great at teasing and releasing awesome new content. But much less so at being transparent about what's to come and what are their plans for what leftover from WHB.
Plus there is definitely some mixed-signals. Just think about this : Spiderfang Grots have a Start Collecting Box ... 


 


 

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