Souls Wars by Josh Reynolds

[Deepkin]

On 7/9/2018 at 11:42 AM, ShadowSwordmaster said:

Bathlas is the only one we know so far. 

Tyros Gorgus is implied to be Thyruss Gorman, hence his tsundere friendship with Gelt/Arum. Gorman was the Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges of Magic before Gelt, and the head of the Bright College.

The Anvils of the Heldenhammer are also noted to venerate what is essentially Myrmidia reborn, and so it's not a stretch to believe many of the Anvils are former Myrmidians from Tilea, Estalia, and the Empire.

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

*SPOILERS*

 

*SPOILERS*

 

*SPOILERS*

 

Just finished Soul Wars tonight. @JReynolds job well done. It doesn't top Spear of Shadows, but Soul Wars offers a lot to chew on and appreciate. The ramifications, the lore advancements, and revelations on certain characters and plots. All were done well. I haven't read the starter box story, Battle for Glymmsforge, but from what I've heard, its a great nod that that story is but a piece of the overall arc regarding the overall battle for the free city.

The Anvils of the Heldenhamemr seemed quite stoic and believable, especially Balthassar Ge- er, I mean Balthas! He is not an easy character to like, but his determination and reasoning to use his mind rather than a sword was refreshing. The Stormcasts interactions with each other and the Sacrosanct were also fascinating. I think this was the first story that we really saw fear within Stormcasts exemplified. Their realization that returning to Azyr is no longer guaranteed, nor is their survival during the reforging process. Helios and Callus revealed a lot more depth to Stormcasts that I imagined. Hopefully we see more non-Hammers of Sigmar Stormhosts get exposure in these stories (the return of Zephycles and Gordrakk would be fun).

Where this story excels is revealing the mindset of Death, how the limitless minions of Nagash hear his voice, or at least one of them, driving them on. This is done well with Pharsis' tribulations, the inner struggle he endures, succumbs to, and breaks. Possibly the biggest takeaway is how the realms interact with one another, and are both opposites and equals. Azyr-Shyish, Aqshy-Chamon, Ghur-Ghyran, Hysh-Ulgu. Some have subtle similarities and differences, while others are more stark, but as Archon the Black explained, their unity, and the God's alliance, is what can truly defeat the Chaos Gods. Not Nagash's "kill-everything" grand plan, not Sigmar's war-on-all-fronts strategy. Together, they warded them off in the Age of Myth, and together again, they can become victorious once mroe. Archon was, imo, the best character in the book. Everything he did was unexpected, well-thought-out, and reasoned. That final conversation with Manfred was jaw-dropping and puts him in a different light. 

I was also happy the Dispossessed were referenced a few times. Now I'm more curious to see how duardin holds/mansions function within a free city

Also, the Ironjawz from the Malign Portents story were included at the start off the book pummeling Nagashizzar to rubble. That was pretty dam hilarious

This was my first time trying an audio book, and I think it enhanced my experience with this story in particular. There were a handful of voices that seemed to weave together, and I did have to rewind the story several times when I became distracted for a second, but I thought the narrator did a good job telling the story and making the voices unique enough where I could tell them apart. I'd definitely give audiobooks another go. Very strange though to read Nagash's voice in all caps for so long then to hear him as a benevolent voice that isn't constantly screaming at you

[Kaleb Daark]

On 7/8/2018 at 4:04 AM, xking said:

  I think Nagash is wrong because he is a cruel, tyrannical, lying, genocidal egomaniac cosmic horror, Who is just as bad as the Chaos gods.  

 

On 7/8/2018 at 10:41 AM, Kirjava13 said:

Again, Nagash is a giant skeleton in a big hat who turns healing women into frenzied murderers for the crime of keeping souls from him for a little longer. There is no conceivable universe where he is a good guy.

 

On 7/8/2018 at 8:37 PM, Envyus said:

Nagash is right that turning everyone into Undead is probably the only way to permanently destroy chaos, but that is no better then chaos winning.

Nagash from minute one even back in the old world was a cruel and evil Tyrant that is not doing any of this for the greater good just for his own power. Nagash is no better then the Chaos Gods and outright plans to usurp them. 

 

I like Nagash and his armies, but he is a pure villain and there is nothing grey about him or good about his point. 

Yes, as Phil Kelly put it Nagash is "irredeemably evil" in the light and darkness, good and evil dichotomy.

However both he and Sigmar are very much the same as Arkhan explains with the Sword and shield example.

Both want an end to chaos. This much is clear.  And like the End Times, this was not about good and evil but Order vs Chaos.

Both Nagash and Sigmar want Order.

Where this differs is in their view of what order is.

Sigmar would have all his stormcast with full memories and personality if he could. This isn't in question.  It's the part of the reforging which concerns him most, because he can't work out why that fragment of the person who was, disappears.  (my guess  want, is that Slaanesh is the one grabbing hold of this shard ).

So, this is important in itself because this is essentially where they differ in their ideologies.

Sigmar sees order as a world without chaos. where civilisation can thrive and flourish.

Chaos however knows that things can be corrupted because for every noble emotion it has a base opposite. pride, envy, hatred, desire etc.  And this is what the chaos gods latch on to to form the seeds of rot.    Perhaps,  Sigmar in his innocence? naivety?  desire to believe mortals can rise above baser instinct and they will not be corrupted or affected by the same if chaos were not there to sow the seed.

Now, the important thing here is that Sigmar want his dovoted to essentially live with their own thoughts, dreams and have their own mind.

 

This is where Nagash and his views break away.

 

What Arkhan tells us, is that Nagash also wants order.  But his realisation, and thus rationalisation that the human condition is what’s at fault.  It’s inherently weak with its desires and wants and needs and thus in order to have pure order and the end of chaos one must eradicate it’s very food source if you will.

By making everyone a thrall of death, and thus a part of nagash the free will is eradicated. The corruptible is cleansed, leaving he chaos gods no fodder upon which to graze.  They. His legions do not have minds to corrupt, for “they” are he.

Arkhan reinforces this so many times even to the mortarchs, to whom he makes clear that if they have mind and purpose to scheme and connive, it’s because Nagash wishes it so.  Should Manfredd for instance try and undo or subvert a plan of nagash, it would be because it would suit Nagash for him to do so, and it’s nagash himself that would put the thoughts and their conclusion into his head.  It’s no different to one master hive mind relayed through different hosts.  Ultimately they’re all just him.

Nagash would see all life end in order to have a perfect order. Since he is now death itself, he holds his charge as god of death with great duty – yes this is tempered if you will by the seed of what he was, his power hungry megalomaniac of his previous life, these vestiges in him haven’t left and perhaps he doesn’t really understand why he must feel that he needs to do and be this way rather than just a custodian of dead souls.  And at the end of all things there will be nothing. Just dust and ashes.

That’s why the ruinous powers fear him more than Sigmar.  Sigmar is essentially part of the great game, because he thinks like the mortals he so loves.   Nagash is finality, and once he achieves his rule aons will  pass with him doing nothing other  than just being.

He himself however realises that even he is not eternal.  I always feel the epilogue of Soul Wars is profound in us understanding that Nagash understands the synergy between him and the others, he understands they strands of fate that bind them but I cannot help but feel he also wants to see, and test the what ifs.  In eroding the mortal realms from within, through Neferata’s scheming, he not only proves to sigmar his point of view – the fallibility and weakness of the mortal condition, but also perhaps it’s the most excellent way of charting and keeping eyes on the ruinous powers progress in their corruption of mortals at the same time, and manoeuvre his plans and forces accordingly.

 

Possibly…

I like this thread

 

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

10 hours ago, Deepkin said:

Tyros Gorgus is implied to be Thyruss Gorman, hence his tsundere friendship with Gelt/Arum. Gorman was the Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges of Magic before Gelt, and the head of the Bright College.

The Anvils of the Heldenhammer are also noted to venerate what is essentially Myrmidia reborn, and so it's not a stretch to believe many of the Anvils are former Myrmidians from Tilea, Estalia, and the Empire.

2

That is a stretch. These people come from various places in the Mortal Realms and from the world that was. The name that is mention is Morrda, which is awful close to Morr and backs it up with the mention of death and ravens.

Edited July 11, 2018 by ShadowSwordmaster

[amysrevenge]

37 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

However both he and Sigmar are very much the same as Arkhan explains with the Sword and shield example.

Both want an end to chaos. This much is clear.  And like the End Times, this was not about good and evil but Order vs Chaos.

Both Nagash and Sigmar want Order.

Where this differs is in their view of what order is.

Yeah but this sort of arguing is easy.

You could flip it around, frame Nothingness/Stagnation/the Void as the ultimate evil to be avoided rather than Chaos, and call Sigmar and Nurgle the same in their staunch opposition to Nagash's nothingness.  Their only difference is how they go about defining and promoting Life/procreation/abundance.

Everybody is the same as everybody else, when the proper characteristics are held up in isolation.  Alarielle and Nurgle are the same.  Khorne and Sigmar are the same.  Malerion and Nagash are the same.  If you compare just one or two things and ignore the rest.

I think ultimately the similarities between Nagash and the Chaos gods are more significant than the differences.  A realm in which Nagash wins the ultimate victgory and a realm in which Khorne wins the ultimate victory will look different superficially, but where it matters they are the same - a realm utterly and universally under the unswaying dominion of one mind, never changing for eternity.  A realm in which Sigmar wins the ultimate victory does not look like this.

[Deepkin]

36 minutes ago, ShadowSwordmaster said:

That is a stretch. These people come from various places in the Mortal Realms and from the world that was. The name that is mention is Morrda, which is awful close to Morr and backs it up with the mention of death and ravens.

Ah youre right, I mixed em up with a different stormhost. I think it may have been the Tempest Lords whom venerate what is basically Myrmidia with slightly different spelling (Mirmidih, the Lady of War or something. Dont have the armybook in front of me.)

Still, the cult of Morr was strong in Tilea and Estalia, and since Balthasar Gelt and Thyruss Gorman are here, makes sense that there would be others from the Old World as well.

[ShadowSwordmaster]

34 minutes ago, Deepkin said:

Ah youre right, I mixed em up with a different stormhost. I think it may have been the Tempest Lords whom venerate what is basically Myrmidia with slightly different spelling (Mirmidih, the Lady of War or something. Dont have the armybook in front of me.)

Still, the cult of Morr was strong in Tilea and Estalia, and since Balthasar Gelt and Thyruss Gorman are here, makes sense that there would be others from the Old World as well.

I would assume so, but it is not just people from the Old World. The Anvils of Heldenhammer section in the newest battletome mentions this:

Quote

Each Anvils of Heldenhammer hails from a time lost to the mist of memory - they were not rescued from the threshold of death fighting Chaos, but  were already long slain at the time they were plucked from the Mortal Realms.

For the Tempest Lords, it says they from Hyishian dynasties of warrior aristocrats that worships armoured high priestess,  Mirmidh, She Who Rules. That sounds like closer to what you were thinking about. 

[shinros]

1 hour ago, amysrevenge said:

Yeah but this sort of arguing is easy.

You could flip it around, frame Nothingness/Stagnation/the Void as the ultimate evil to be avoided rather than Chaos, and call Sigmar and Nurgle the same in their staunch opposition to Nagash's nothingness.  Their only difference is how they go about defining and promoting Life/procreation/abundance.

Everybody is the same as everybody else, when the proper characteristics are held up in isolation.  Alarielle and Nurgle are the same.  Khorne and Sigmar are the same.  Malerion and Nagash are the same.  If you compare just one or two things and ignore the rest.

I think ultimately the similarities between Nagash and the Chaos gods are more significant than the differences.  A realm in which Nagash wins the ultimate victgory and a realm in which Khorne wins the ultimate victory will look different superficially, but where it matters they are the same - a realm utterly and universally under the unswaying dominion of one mind, never changing for eternity.  A realm in which Sigmar wins the ultimate victory does not look like this.

The point is Sigmar will never gain ultimate victory. He will never achieve his dream for the realms. For his dream will forever keep chaos thriving until the end of the mortal realms.

[amysrevenge]

That's just. like, your opinion, man.

#dude

[ShadowSwordmaster]

13 minutes ago, xking said:

Is Morrda from the  Anvils of Heldenhammer lore in the new battletome? Is it a death god? I did not buy the new battletome yet.

Yep. He is a death god that opposed Nagash.

Edited July 11, 2018 by ShadowSwordmaster

[Kaleb Daark]

40 minutes ago, ShadowSwordmaster said:

Yep. He is a death god that opposed Nagash.

was he actually be Morr who was the old world's god of death?

 Nagash slew him in End times and took on his portfolio.

[Kaleb Daark]

2 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

 

I think ultimately the similarities between Nagash and the Chaos gods are more significant than the differences.  A realm in which Nagash wins the ultimate victgory and a realm in which Khorne wins the ultimate victory will look different superficially, but where it matters they are the same - a realm utterly and universally under the unswaying dominion of one mind, never changing for eternity.  A realm in which Sigmar wins the ultimate victory does not look like this.

I'm sure that's what I was saying with nagash.  It's how he sees the perfect order.

[ShadowSwordmaster]

1 hour ago, Kaleb Daark said:

was he actually be Morr who was the old world's god of death?

 Nagash slew him in End times and took on his portfolio.

Morrda is referenced as an ancestor figure and ancient god that "yet remained whole" after he defied Nagash.  I think the names seem similar but are not the same god. 

 

On a different note, Soul Wars pretty much squash the notion of "Deathcast" and all of that nonsense. 

[Envyus]

Nagash's view of Order is simply control. As the core book says. Nagash wants it so that everything down do someone's eye blinking is under his control, as his megalomania has long passed his sanity.

One of the first things Nagash ever did when he created Necromancy was murder his brothers wife who he lusted for and animate her as an undead doll that would do what ever he wanted. 

[shinros]

42 minutes ago, xking said:

I did not know Nagash was into that.

Yup Nagash was a mad cackling necromancer. When he made her undead she sort of just sat there. Then he killed her to break the covenant. He was bitter that he was forced to become a priest and the fact his brother sucked as king. He only developed naunce in times of legend sigmar when he has killed off most of his humanity and emotions. Honestly his origin book series was not all that good the author seemed like he prefered writing other characters. (After the first book he focused more on skaven.)

One common compliant that there are not enough chapters dealing with the actual character and he made some lore mistakes.

Edited July 14, 2018 by shinros

[Sheriff]

so i just finished it and here are my take-aways. For context, its the first aos book i've read. 

Spoiler

• Glymsforge and the humans and dwarfs etc in it were super interesting. I only wish they were the focus of the story more. It was sad to see the humans treated as liabilities and burdensome fools rather than the able-bodied fighters of dead-things that we know they are and can be. There was a bit where an interesting warrior priesty dude (the vulture?) showed up and i was like "aaaah, up til now the author has made me think humans are useless deliberately, and now this guy will shatter that expectation!" ... nope, he was dead the next page. 
• I loved the little glimpses into other 'factions' perspectives and POV of the quake etc, like the slaanesh dude chapter. caught me off-guard with the story (thinking he would be a continuing part of the story but then wasn't), in a good way. would have been nice to get an equivalent chapter for a grot shaman POV of what was going on with the quake etc. (i appreciate its an order versus death book though)
• I thought the cats were going to be tzeentch spies, and I'm sad i was wrong!
• Stormcast characters other than Balthas and Pharus were boring and inter-changeable - even at the end I couldn't remember which was which. I'd heard the criticisms about aos books before which was part of why i'd never bothered reading them (they're almost all stormcast books), and sadly i've discovered this is still true. Regardless, I enjoyed the book overall. 
• I wanted Pharus to win, was a good character. so was sad to see him get vaporized forever. Malenrek seems cool too, hope to read more about him at some point. What 'unit' was Pharus in the Nighthaunt army? Was he another Knight of Shrouds? I get the feeling he was something else but I couldn't figure it out. Loved the description of him and his armour, and how he feels when wearing it. Basically all the Pharus POV bits were great. 
• Loved the dancing ghoul jester too -  i wanna hear his backstory! i reckon he pissed off nagash somehow and this is a great punishment.

I think i will read another aos book, but will pick very carefully, prioritizing the non-stormcast ones, or only the 'best' ones like this one. 

 

[Sheriff]

13 minutes ago, xking said:

Maybe it's because I listened to the audiobook or maybe it's because I like paladins. I never find stormcast to be boring. I also don't know what you thought normal  humans and  dwarfs were going to do against an army of ghost, when even the liberators were falling over and dying.

they seemed to have all manner of wards, traps, special ammo, etc. for dealing with undead stuff, and had survived hundreds of years with these tricks. To dismiss them as useless was just lazy given all the evidence they were not useless. 

 

[Nin Win]

A bit more could have been done to remind the reader that this was really an overwhelming attack.  Something beyond which the defences and the mortal defenders could have handled.  There was a bit, but apparently not enough.

Also, based on what you said, I'd go with City of Secrets next.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Nin Win

[Sheriff]

2 minutes ago, xking said:

That stuff only works on physical undead, It had very little effect on ghost With the exception of the  barrier of saints around the city. That was sabotage. 

A Nighthaunt army is something new, they had never encountered many malevolent spirits before. 

Humans are smart and adaptable, and could come up with a new solution if needed. But no, apparently only the mighty super-smart immortal stormcast can have such powers. 

If stormcast have a monopoly on defeating baddies, then that is rather limiting for story-telling. 

[Nin Win]

And what character ended up being key to the success of the stormcast?

Hint, she was followed by cats.

You're over generalising.  In this particular case the mortal defenders were indeed overwhelmed.  By numbers of attacking undead never seen before.  Ever.  And then the stormcast also barely avoided failure and still barely held them at the last possible points like the realm gate and the tombs.  Even the majority of the stormcast died.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Nin Win
spoiler tags

[Sheriff]

Yeah I read thanks. Read a whole book in fact. 

Edited July 14, 2018 by Sheriff

[ShadowSwordmaster]

4 hours ago, Sheriff said:

so i just finished it and here are my take-aways. For context, its the first aos book i've read. 

  Reveal hidden contents

• Glymsforge and the humans and dwarfs etc in it were super interesting. I only wish they were the focus of the story more. It was sad to see the humans treated as liabilities and burdensome fools rather than the able-bodied fighters of dead-things that we know they are and can be. There was a bit where an interesting warrior priesty dude (the vulture?) showed up and i was like "aaaah, up til now the author has made me think humans are useless deliberately, and now this guy will shatter that expectation!" ... nope, he was dead the next page. 
• I loved the little glimpses into other 'factions' perspectives and POV of the quake etc, like the slaanesh dude chapter. caught me off-guard with the story (thinking he would be a continuing part of the story but then wasn't), in a good way. would have been nice to get an equivalent chapter for a grot shaman POV of what was going on with the quake etc. (i appreciate its an order versus death book though)
• I thought the cats were going to be tzeentch spies, and I'm sad i was wrong!
• Stormcast characters other than Balthas and Pharus were boring and inter-changeable - even at the end I couldn't remember which was which. I'd heard the criticisms about aos books before which was part of why i'd never bothered reading them (they're almost all stormcast books), and sadly i've discovered this is still true. Regardless, I enjoyed the book overall. 
• I wanted Pharus to win, was a good character. so was sad to see him get vaporized forever. Malenrek seems cool too, hope to read more about him at some point. What 'unit' was Pharus in the Nighthaunt army? Was he another Knight of Shrouds? I get the feeling he was something else but I couldn't figure it out. Loved the description of him and his armour, and how he feels when wearing it. Basically all the Pharus POV bits were great. 
• Loved the dancing ghoul jester too -  i wanna hear his backstory! i reckon he pissed off nagash somehow and this is a great punishment.

I think i will read another aos book, but will pick very carefully, prioritizing the non-stormcast ones, or only the 'best' ones like this one. 

 

Spoiler

Pharus become a Knight of Shrouds. 

 

[Envyus]

6 hours ago, shinros said:

Yup Nagash was a mad cackling necromancer. When he made her undead she sort of just sat there. Then he killed her to break the covenant. He was bitter that he was forced to become a priest and the fact his brother sucked as king. He only developed naunce in times of legend sigmar when he has killed off most of his humanity and emotions. Honestly his origin book series was not all that good the author seemed like he prefered writing other characters. (After the first book he focused more on skaven.)

One common compliant that there are not enough chapters dealing with the actual character and he made some lore mistakes.

I don't his brother sucked as King and it was more that was Nagash's justification for wanting to usurp him and take what he viewed as rightfully his.

[Envyus]

There is another new book that is focused on some humans. Which looks interesting. 

[shinros]

3 minutes ago, Envyus said:

I don't his brother sucked as King and it was more that was Nagash's justification for wanting to usurp him and take what he viewed as rightfully his.

No he did suck as king, he was a essentially a joke to everyone else because he did not actually act like a Nehekaran king and vied for peace etc. Nagash also used it as an excuse as well. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by shinros