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Souls Wars by Josh Reynolds


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2 hours ago, xking said:

It's character flaw of Sigmar, He is too trusting of those who he should not be.  Like Malerion(https://malignportents.com/story/a-rescued-soul/).

Nagash never regarded  Sigmar as his brother, He was planing on betraying Sigmar and the other gods from the moment Sigmar freed him, it was just a matter of when and how.  Sigmar should just take the L, and accept that  freeing Nagash was ultimately a terrible mistake.  

 

You're missing the point of the story. 

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23 minutes ago, xking said:

   Perhaps, but nothing I said was wrong.

Well in the book just for a moment Nagash did regard sigmar as possibly a brother, he has a flashback where Sigmar freed him and he remembers his hand reaching out towards him, but he quashes that memory. As GW said in a recent community article the Nagash we see now is the highly militarised aspect. The point of the book is that neither side is right or wrong. Sigmar can believe in human potential but in warhammer humans suck hence why chaos exists, Nagash is the other side of the coin where he does not believe in mortal potential. 

As long as mortal weakness exists so does chaos which is also true. But at the same time there will be a huge damper on free will if nagash gets his way.

 Hence why GW have said if Nagash wins it's the end of chaos but at what cost? I don't want to spoil the ending of the book but a certain character sums it up. Chaos was on the back foot when Sigmar and Nagash was working together, hence why Archaon moved to separate them. Sigmar is the shield, Nagash is the sword per the book. Neither god is "right." 

So yeah I think you are wrong. The battletomes are broad strokes, the Black Library books fill out the details. The whole situation surrounding Sigmar and Nagash is a lot more complicated than good or evil. Josh writes a whole introduction explaining this at the very start of the book. 

It's not black and white as you want to believe. 

Edited by shinros
Adding more to my point.
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3 hours ago, xking said:

Nagash is single-handedly responsible for the deaths of countless trillions and is no better then the dark gods. I am not wrong, There is nothing complicated about it.  Nagash's solution to chaos is too murder everything, that is not gray. It's just another form of black.  And Nagash  was planing on betraying Sigmar and the other gods from the moment Sigmar freed him. That is not a broad stroke, It a very specific thing called out in the LoN battletome. Black Library books are from the  personally created lore and opinions of the  author, It does not always mach up with the main lore and opinions of the creative director and lore team, Like phil kelly(who said Nagash is irredeemably evil in a twitch stream)

I don't need the book to tell me who is right or wrong, I can do that myself.   I think Nagash is wrong because he is a cruel, tyrannical, lying, genocidal egomaniac cosmic horror, Who is just as bad as the Chaos gods.  

But let's agree to disagree.

 

 

 

So have you read the book then? Josh Reynolds laid most of the ground work and gave details for most of AOS and yes it is broad strokes because in the book we see the betrayal is a lot more complicated since it's actually developed. And Nagash and Sigmar's feelings are actually developed and despite your opinions on Nagash he needed to stop chaos. Sigmar will not and will never win his crusade. All the stormcast he is throwing and destroying on the anvil is utterly pointless because he will never win by himself. That is something both GW and Josh pretty much said. And also the book is approved by editors and GW and going by his tweets they actually want to make sure it's lore accurate. You should read ADB's posts on writing they have for more consultants and information at their hands than we do.

as been said on the community article what we see in LON is Nagash's militarised aspect, maybe what we see is his current hard stance mind? Maybe things where different in the age of myth?

so let's agree to disagree. 

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8 minutes ago, xking said:

The Betrayal of Nagash was the great work. He was planning it since the  age of myth.  Nagash being militarized or not does not make him any less of a hypocrite or a tyrant. And sigmar does not fight alone. I am nearing the end of the book. I might respond to you later on the subject. 

Well the aelf gods are bloody useless they left the battle/went into seclusion soon as it suited them. They are not reliable allies.  Even the Everqueen now throws a fit at sigmar for daring to offer his hand in aid to a local problem. The pantheon is fragmented and concerned with their own problems. This is how chaos wins all the time. Nagash may be a hypocrite and a tyrant but he is the only person in the warhammer fantasy mythos that made all the chaos gods move at once due to his plans. Just like the vaunted 40k emperor, who is also a hypocrite and a tyrant.

And it's for one reason only, his grim fatalism all of that is on display in the book, Pharus did not fall to the desire of power, or Nagash displaying his godly might. It was just a Elder bones telling him how it is. 

It goes back all the way to times of legends sigmar. He shows sigmar his vision of the world if everyone was undead, or shackled to his will there will be peace. It's not a case of him wanting ultimate power. In his warped mind that is what will  be the end of chaos.  Nick the writer of LON confirmed that to be true.

It's quite simple, what feeds chaos and keeps it thriving? Mortal weakness, so the only answer is to remove it. But removing such a thing basically crushes free will, because to be mortal is to be flawed. Sigmar's goal is the end of chaos, he wants to beat the chaos gods not contain them. The writers have said that several times on stream and across books, battletomes etc. Then they went on to say Sigmar will never beat chaos as and I think this book clearly shows why. 

 And it's one simple reason because his belief in mortal potential. Mortals are their own monsters. He believed in the potential of Archaon, that he does not need his help in his most vulnerable moment. Look at him now, Grand Marshall of the apocalypse who has destroyed and conquered multiple worlds and almost bought the realms to it's knees.

 Grungi's words from spear of shadows epitomes that moment, Sigmar expects people to understand, he expects people to rise to meet him, he expects mortals to be up to the challenge when they are clearly not. Nagash has no faith in mortals what's so ever so it's his duty to rule and guide them, to show he is powerful. It's the reason why shyish endured and why the other realms fell.  

 Many of the daemons and chaos gods across battletomes and novels don't even view sigmar as a threat.  Don't you remember when they talked about Tzeentch's battletome on stream? Tzeentch doesn't give a flying toss about sigmar, to him he is small in the grand scheme of things. All he felt at most is mild annoyance at being surprised with stormcast. In Malign portent's Tzeentch bent his whole mind due Nagash's plan.

Another example look at Morathi, she is not a full goddess but due to her own weakness and desire for power slaanesh's prison is basically weakening putting Ulgu in peril. 

Mortal potential has it's place but there must be balance, Sigmar and Nagash are that balance, light and shadow. Sword and shield. They are opposed yet not. Those two gods working together is the best chance at ending chaos and retaining some semblance of the realm as is. It's why they broke the both of them apart in the first place.

What Nagash wants is the extreme outcome and the death of free will but chaos will no longer be a problem. 

What Sigmar wants will just lead to never ending war and suffering.  Chaos will hammer at the walls of reality until they finally decide to get serious and end them. Mallus is a clear reminder displaying when chaos wants to end something. 

As you said before, it's agree to disagree but overall I see this conflict in the context of warhammer in general to be a lot more complex than simple black and white. 

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5 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

Again, Nagash is a giant skeleton in a big hat who turns healing women into frenzied murderers for the crime of keeping souls from him for a little longer. There is no conceivable universe where he is a good guy.

Never said he was a good guy. What of all the criminals he actually punishes? The battletome shows his cruelty and warped sense of justice.

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I finished the book.

I enjoyed it more than I thought I would.  Because it's linked to a game starter set, I was worried it was going to be a Dark Imperium style crass sales pitch passed off as a novel.  It wasn't.

My favourite thing about the more sympathetic view of the death allegiance and Nagash is that it's held in tension with their murderous attack on a city.  All this talk about justice and then the creatures of death will kill any and every living thing.  It's so much better when an antagonist actually believes they are right rather than just wanting some trivial self aggrandising thing and not really believing in what they are doing. 

The Stormhosts chosen for the story were probably the right picks.  Had the Hallowed Knights been around it would have tilted things and made the death argument look way, way more valid as responding to Nagash's charges of inustice with chants of faith would have made Nagash seem way more reasonable than he is.  The more reasoned and introspective response across the board was probably needed.

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44 minutes ago, Nin Win said:

I finished the book.

I enjoyed it more than I thought I would.  Because it's linked to a game starter set, I was worried it was going to be a Dark Imperium style crass sales pitch passed off as a novel.  It wasn't.

My favourite thing about the more sympathetic view of the death allegiance and Nagash is that it's held in tension with their murderous attack on a city.  All this talk about justice and then the creatures of death will kill any and every living thing.  It's so much better when an antagonist actually believes they are right rather than just wanting some trivial self aggrandising thing and not really believing in what they are doing. 

The Stormhosts chosen for the story were probably the right picks.  Had the Hallowed Knights been around it would have tilted things and made the death argument look way, way more valid as responding to Nagash's charges of inustice with chants of faith would have made Nagash seem way more reasonable than he is.  The more reasoned and introspective response across the board was probably needed.

This story shows that you can have two sides be fundamentally right, but also smart without having one side appear to be dumb. 

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Nagash is right that turning everyone into Undead is probably the only way to permanently destroy chaos, but that is no better then chaos winning.

Nagash from minute one even back in the old world was a cruel and evil Tyrant that is not doing any of this for the greater good just for his own power. Nagash is no better then the Chaos Gods and outright plans to usurp them. 

 

I like Nagash and his armies, but he is a pure villain and there is nothing grey about him or good about his point. 

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9 hours ago, xking said:

I finished the book, It was alright. I Liked "Overlords of the Iron Dragon" and "Eight Lamentations: Spear of Shadows" more.

I feel like Glymmsforge is both too low-fanstasy and under powered.  Glymmsforge did not give me a sense of awe or wonder like say Shu’gohl or the Living City would. Ultimately to me Glymmsforge was boring, while at the same time, life in the city is  more interesting then the death stuff. 

I was not at all sympathetic with death, they sounded no different then the Nurgle worshippers who talk about how benevolent and awesome Nurgle is and how good it is to be infected with plague.

I did like Balthas, one of the best stormcast Characters. Behind Vandus Hammerhand, Gardus and Hamilcar Bear-Eater.  Hamilcar is the best!

It makes sense Balthas is a good character. Cause he was a good character before he was a Stormcast. The fact he has so much history behind him as Balthasar Gelt pretty much makes him the current best stormcast. (Not a huge fan of Vandus he is pretty basic and boring, plus his new name is lamer then his old one.) 

 

And it makes sense Glymmsforge is not amazing, It's not a major metropolis or anything. Of course stuff like the living city would be more impressive. But it does not need to be super impressive.  If every Order city or town was on par with stuff like the Living City, there would be nothing special about them.

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16 hours ago, MacDuff said:

If my choices are to live endlessly as a bag of rot under Nurgle, stumble around forever as an undead skeleton under Nagash, or be reformed by Sigmar until I forget where my car keys are, I'll take Sigmar.

But stormcasts don't forget the important stuff, just the unimportant stuff. They stay focused on the job, the way someone autistic would be, and there is nothing wrong with being like that. I like the fact that they are realistic in that way.

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2 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

Are there many stormcast who are confirmed to be reincarnations of Old World characters? I'd assumed they were all heroes from the age of myth before reading this book.

In other words, who is still kicking around, albeit with a different name?

Bathlas is the only one we know so far. 

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I'm still very much on the fence about buying this book, and I was hoping someone here could help me make up my mind. I'm not interested in reading about Stormcast or Nighthaunt (just not my cup of tea), but I do like other factions/characters (Neferata and Slaanesh primarily, but there are others I find interesting). Does this book have much in the way of information about other factions?

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21 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I'm still very much on the fence about buying this book, and I was hoping someone here could help me make up my mind. I'm not interested in reading about Stormcast or Nighthaunt (just not my cup of tea), but I do like other factions/characters (Neferata and Slaanesh primarily, but there are others I find interesting). Does this book have much in the way of information about other factions?

Only part of the way through but Neferata has made a guest appearance and there was a section about a slaanesh warband. I'm guessing they wont feature heavily in the rest though

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