Destruction FW changes

[ForumAccount]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

I could be wrong, but the Bonegrinder did not seem to previously have the Aleguzzler keyword and now he does.

Yeah that's new. He can be taken in the Sons of Behemat battalion now and would completely annihilate everything as the Gargant King (not for matched play though.)

[Thostos]

To me,the general improvement of the Squigs is a sign that the moonclan tome is just around the corner,,as in priming to sell models.

 

  

[Skabnoze]

17 minutes ago, Thostos said:

To me,the general improvement of the Squigs is a sign that the moonclan tome is just around the corner,,as in priming to sell models.

 

  

I am really hopeful that the Colossal Squig losing the ability for rolling doubles on a charge might mean that the design team is looking to replace those abilities across the rest of the Squig units.  I don't have an issue with the effects of those abilities and simply the fact that it is extremely rare for them to trigger.  I hate fun abilities that you never get to use.  I'll take less powerful but fun abilities that you can regularly use over strong abilities that hardly ever happen.

[PlasticCraic]

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

Edit: There is also a really important rules point which makes her unique spell fantastic.

From the rules far.

Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied?
A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied, so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll. 

That's not a buff, that was always the case. Used to come up a lot with things like Kurnoths hunkered down - a save roll of 4 was not failed, so they couldn't reroll. Then you applied modifiers and it became a 5 and failed. 

She only gets 1 unbind with no bonuses, and you still have to roll a 4+, so nice as it sounds it really is an edge case bonus. I used her quite aggressively a lot last year and i don't think I got anything from it. 

Also her unique spell is probably better described as her warscroll spell, given that Curse of Rust (Chamon) is identical in every way, and Nurgle has one that is identical but better. 

Overall in a world where a GUO still costs 340 points I see her as being a poor second. I don't think she needed to drop wounds and go up in points.

[svnvaldez]

Have you guys read the realm of beast yet? Lol I'm showing up with a free Rogue Idol each game to start 9 away from my opponent. The worst part is Realm rules are not optional RAW. You can state you want to play in the realm of beasts and if your opp. disagrees its a roll off. ie 50/50% 

[mcbrain]

Magma Dragon has only increased 20 points, not 40. 

 

Was previously 520, now is 540. 

[Malakree]

6 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Also her unique spell is probably better described as her warscroll spell, given that Curse of Rust (Chamon) is identical in every way, and Nurgle has one that is identical but better. 

The big question is, do they stack!

[Moonlightwolf]

16 hours ago, Malakree said:

Overall though she might have been nerfed I think the changes around her mean she was actually BUFFED.

This is how I feel, initially I was miffed about the wound reduction and points increase but then I realised how much power spell spite has gained, plus like every wizard she can now cast endless spells so her utility has just got a massive boost.

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

So at first I was reading Warscroll builder and thought I stumbled on a spoiler bow I think it may be linked to open play with the mention of a Gargant King,

 

I saw his and though fimir might be coming but is the from other rules?

If so where can I find them? I only have the Malign magic of the new book

[Skabnoze]

On 6/29/2018 at 11:45 PM, Malakree said:

The big question is, do they stack!

Why would they not? 

In most games the rule of thumb is that differently named abilities stack.  Or the game system uses keywords and explains how those stack or do not and then abilities grant keyword bonuses.

But Age of Sigmar seems to have eschewed those concepts and instead it either limits how many times you can use an ability in total (like 1 cast per spell a turn) or it freely allows abilities to stack and then adds a rules clause to abilities that they do not want to stack.

So as far as I can tell if you have 2 different spells that both do the same thing then it is perfectly within the rules to stack them.  Although in public personal opinion they should not have done this as it is what opens the doors to abuse and ends up causing issues further down the line.

I also think that it was a dumb move for GW to allow the same command abilities to be stacked on a target multiple times.  The Moonclan warboss is already 10-tons of broken and I expect he is not the only one in the game like that.  It will also make their job much tougher to come up with interesting new abilities in future books.  Stacking different command abilities on one target is already going to be combo-crazy enough.  I foresee them probably having to do a course correction on this similar to the big errata that they dropped on 40k not that long ago.

I mostly play these games for fun anymore, and I don’t really have too much of an issue with total insanity.  In fact, I plan to use the Moonclan warboss to one-shot an Archaon someone in my area is a bit overly fond of.  But having said that, I have seen game systems buckle under the weight of bad rules, overly broken combos, etc.  Best case the game gets a rapid new edition.  Worst case the game sheds too many players and is dumped.  GW has large enough player bases for their main games to make this difficult, but it has happened to them before.  Epic was a core game back in the 90s and they torpedoed it with an edition change the player base rejected wholesale - it also had some really busted parts that they were not able to quickly fix.

I think this new edition of Age of Sigmar is great on the whole, but I do think they may end up reversing a bit on command abilities.

[Malakree]

My point is that people saying the realm spell is just better are missing that you can put both on something like a stardrake. Combine that with a -3 relic on a footbosses choppa and we are now looking at -5 to saves. Suddenly that stardrake looks way more killable

[Skabnoze]

10 minutes ago, Malakree said:

My point is that people saying the realm spell is just better are missing that you can put both on something like a stardrake. Combine that with a -3 relic on a footbosses choppa and we are now looking at -5 to saves. Suddenly that stardrake looks way more killable

This is true.

While I still think that GW is going to get themselves into problems with ability stacking, I do say that I appreciate them erring on the side of things being killable.  There is a nice middle-ground to be found between durability and damage to be found in a rules system, but if things have to swing one way more than the other I would prefer the swing to be towards more things dying.

I really did not like the 2+ reroll 1s save throw on big stuff in the last edition.  Anything with that much defense should be very specific by design and probably pretty pillow-fisted to compensate.  I would rather see heavily stacked rend be more common than heavily stacked saves.

[PlasticCraic]

5 hours ago, Malakree said:

My point is that people saying the realm spell is just better are missing that you can put both on something like a stardrake. Combine that with a -3 relic on a footbosses choppa and we are now looking at -5 to saves. Suddenly that stardrake looks way more killable

Nah the Realm spell is not better, it's identical.  And absolutely it would stack. 

It's the Nurgle one that's better (identical, but with further range and also debuffs wounds into the bargain).  So although it will be nice to take say her and a second caster for 460+ points to cast both, a GUO could cast both for 340 (he is a 2 spell caster and can know both spells himself).

So I'm not saying that it's not a nice combo - at all - just reiterating my point that I believe she is worse than and more expensive than what other armies have access to.  Like I said, in a world where a GUO is 340, I don't think she needed to drop wounds and go up to 380.

[Skabnoze]

Bear in mind that in games such as this point values are somewhat based within the faction and not always externally.  So you will sometimes get some direct cross faction comparisons that look out of place.  For example, ranged units may end up costed higher in factions with few ranged options.  

I’m not saying that in this case there is not a cost discrepancy, just saying that cross faction point costs cannot always be directly compared.

[PlasticCraic]

@Skabnoze yeah that's definitely true.  In this specific case I'm not seeing much that should attract a discount for a GUO, but as a general point I agree.

[Shearl]

@TeddyMadeMeDoIt Unfortunately that is a hold over from the previous edition/warscroll. Not only is that battleline option gone but they've gone up 20 points

[Ephor]

Could you then have spiderfang grots with a bone grinder tyrant as a ally in matched play? I’m kinda new to AOS and not sure where I can find out 

[NemoVonUtopia]

21 minutes ago, Ephor said:

Could you then have spiderfang grots with a bone grinder tyrant as a ally in matched play? I’m kinda new to AOS and not sure where I can find out 

There should be a table at the end of the destruction points tables in the general handbooks that lists out all the allies. I am certain that spiderfang can ally with aleguzzlers.

[Ephor]

Ah nice the only problem is when making my Warscroll is that the spiderfang grots ain’t showing as a battalion is that just a bug with Warscroll builder? 

[Malakree]

39 minutes ago, Ephor said:

Could you then have spiderfang grots with a bone grinder tyrant as a ally in matched play? I’m kinda new to AOS and not sure where I can find out 

So what you are looking for is the allegiances of the different warscrolls. If you check the section @NemoVonUtopia pointed to you'll see it says (I've made it more easily readable)

Quote

Spiderfang Grots

• Aleguzzler Gargants
• Gitmob Grots
• Greenskinz
• Moonclan Grots
• Troggoths

So when you look at a warscroll if it has one of these as Keyword Bold in the list of keywords at the end of the warscroll then it fits into that keywords allegiance and can be used as an ally for spiderfang.

If we then look at the Bonegrinder Warscroll

Spoiler

You can see at the bottom it says "Aleguzzler" meaning it's part of the Aleguzzler Gargant allegiance and thus it can be used as an ally for spiderfang.

[Ephor]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

So what you are looking for is the allegiances of the different warscrolls. If you check the section @NemoVonUtopia pointed to you'll see it says (I've made it more easily readable)

So when you look at a warscroll if it has one of these as Keyword Bold in the list of keywords at the end of the warscroll then it fits into that keywords allegiance and can be used as an ally for spiderfang.

If we then look at the Bonegrinder Warscroll

  Hide contents

You can see at the bottom it says "Aleguzzler" meaning it's part of the Aleguzzler Gargant allegiance and thus it can be used as an ally for spiderfang.

Wow thanks man! I understand now, very detailed post.  Thanks again!! 

Think I might start investing in a spiderfang Grot army now