AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[Nevar]

I have been considering a Grey Water force that includes four tanks. 

Knight-Incantor

Lord-Ordinator

Gunmaster

Freeguild Guard x10

Freeguild Guard x10

Freeguild Guard x10

Cannon

Cannon

Steam Tank

Steam Tank

Steam Tank

Steam Tank

Quicksilver Swords

Soulsnare Shackles

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but Grey Water applies to "warmachines" so the Tanks can use it also?

[Gwendar]

Yeah, I think 2 tanks and 4 artillery pieces is good enough for me. I still want some semblance of a frontline. But as far as I know it should work since they have the proper keyword.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Gwendar

[Nevar]

12 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Yeah, I think 2 tanks and 4 artillery pieces is good enough for me. I still want some semblance of a frontline. But as far as I know it should work since they have the proper keyword.

I have just ran on the idea that the tanks -are- the front line.  I put the guild guard in there just as screens or backup for the tanks.  The list will struggle against deep-striking armies like the Nighthaunt, but I face a lot of elephant riders, orruks, skaven, and lizards.  For the most part I expect 1 or 2 turns of shooting before my tanks and infantry are all embroiled in combat.  However, by that point I hopefully was able to do enough damage to secure the wins for the tanks in the combat phases.

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, Nevar said:

the tanks -are- the front line.

I mean, it worked for the Germans for awhile, so it will surely work with their Empire cousins, right?

I'll definitely see what happens with 2 tanks, especially since the griffon general is less useful for his buffs and the whole point is to go shooting heavy anyway. This is more of a fun list that will surprise me if I win, but not disappoint me when I take a loss. I think I am just stuck on the battleline. There's a few ideas I'm tossing around with competitiveness in mind, either:

• 2x20 Guard & 3x10 Handgunners
• 2x20 Guard & 1x30 Handgunners
• Drop a ballista, 3x20 Guard and 3x10 Handgunners

I'm gravitating towards the last one in order to provide myself with 3 solid lines for each section of the board/objectives with the general being in range of at least one of these group to support and having 1 less ballista for a more solid core seems like a good tradeoff. I face similar defensive armies/players locally and my heavy shooting Skryre lists have done decently up until recently (shoot away until they get close and finish them off with your average CC output), but even this has a little more push to it than those do so this should work out better.

[Nevar]

I personally plan to take 3x10 Guild Guard with Militia weapons for fluff and modeling fun reasons.  The average melee and additional guns seem to potentially work well.  Likewise i do not intend to win any tourneys with my list either, it is more of a modelling/fluff project than a truly competitive one.

It seems to me any unit with moderate shooting and moderate melee is actually better than people think because you can cause damage in two different phases thanks to shooting in melee.  While Guild Militia are definately not good, I am not sure they are as bad as people think.  Plus they do the shooting without making me want to keep them still like crossbows or handgunners and they are only 80 pts for 10 guys and a filled Battleline Slot.

As to your handgunners, they -really- seem like they want to be in 30 man blocks.  They hit much better in blocks of 30, and they protect their buffs in 30s.  Even if they get charged, they can still shoot whoever is in melee with them, so having 30 of the guys is almost the same as having 30 halberds.  I would not take them in small 10 man units if I were you.

As to tanks making a front line... you can either turn them longways and leave only 6" between them like a cassock wagon wall giving you a really long frontline of pure steel.  Or you can just have them steam forward to cover terrain and engage enemies out at range away from what you are defending.  I intend to basically abandon my cannons with a steel clad charge with militia running along beside and behind the tanks as support/objective bodies.  With four steam tanks and two Stormcasts with 30 mad militia members all plowing down on the enemy army, I am not sure they will be able to worry so much about my two measly cannons in the backfield.  Time will tell.

[Gwendar]

True, they do prefer to be in 30's, but even in 10's, not moving + general buff they are still at 3's and 2's and I now have 3 Long Rifles instead of 1. I mean if I wanted, I could just take out the guard altogether and go completely into shooting, but I'm already doing that with my Wanderers army and not sure I want that again. I'm really looking for a "Hold the line" style army. Free People allegiance would be best for that thanks to Great Companies, but again, I then miss out on 3-4 pieces of artillery and 2 tanks, so.

I may just get everything needed and play around with 3x10 or 1x30 along with 60 guard and see how it works out. I think the main idea here is really just to park guard on an obj with handgunners behind, with artillery in range of everything to whittle away at units going towards said obj's (not hard with 36" range) and tanks as well...tanks. I'm also justifying potentially running one side lighter than the rest (so one side of the board heavy with guard and 1x30 handgunners while the other is just a tank+guard unit?)

So many possibilities.

[Frowny]

Commenting on the above, couldn't you take a free peoples army and then ally in 3-4 Ballistas? Would give you some artillery and still let you use the free companies? Also stormcast fit in any of the cities if you are going that route. I'm not sure if anyone has done the math but they seem stronger than more traditional cannons in a lot of ways and are a lot less vulnerable for sure. Doesn't help you with the tank question though. 

 

On a somewhat different note, I was really liking the look of some of the collegiate arcane stuff, and was considering building a list around them. Has anyone tried this out recently? I know the hurricanum has accumulated quite a few nerfs along the way. I'm mostly interested in just painting and using the models, so It doesn't necessarily need to be the most competitive list. 

I was thinking

• 380 Celestial Hurricanum
• 240 Luminarch of Hysh 
• 120 Battlemage (Jade for the healing spell)
• 100 10x handgunners
• 100 10x handgunners

As a core for ~940  points. Some screening, some range, hopefully to advance up the field.  The goal being to keep my big guys safe for a few turns, use spells to kill off little tie up units and to pin/tank big units on something sturdy (a seige tank or pheonix, see below)

In terms of finishing this out, I was thinking some combination of either 

• Steam Tank
• Frostheart Pheonix
• 2x 5 reavers (mobility, more shooting, maybe claim an objective early)
• 10x Dragon Blades (advance up the field, hit hard, sturdy)
• 6x Demigryph Knights (redundent with the dragon blades, sturdier but hit noticeably less hard, cooler models)
• Loremaster (goes great with all the big models)
• 30x Pheonix Guard (Big and sturdy and wear buffs well)
• 5x Sisters of Thorn (especially great with the phoenix although seem expensive and I'd only really be taking them for their spell)
• More collegiate wizards (chain lightning and fireball both seem useful and go great with +1 to dispel and cast)
• 30 x Free peoples guard w/ swords. 
• Some units of dryads to wall?
• A big block of stormcast to advance and make a wall

Any thoughts on how to finish out the list? Also and unrelated,  can I ally in a steam tank to keep the possibility of using one of the free cities? Hallowheart seems like the best fit, although may be redundent with the luminarch. I think these things are listed approximately in the order I'm interested in them.... I don't really like the idea of painting tooooo many models and would prefer to do a good job on a smaller number.

One worry is being a bit too immobile. I don't really want to play a gunline, although I know things like the hurricanum and Luminarch tend to lend themselves best to exactly that. Also is there anything similar to skinks that would fit more thematically with human/elf appearing list? Cheap screeners seem like exactly what this list wants.

 

Thanks for any help

 

 

[Double Misfire]

Hi @Frowny  

The Collegiate Arcane stuff is generally pretty usable (if a little costly in the Hurricanum's case). If you're looking at taking both the Hurricanum and Lumiark, why not add a Battlemage on Griffon and take the War Council battalion? The bonuses to cast are now great for getting crucial endless spells off, and the spell range bonuses mean you can guarantee getting offensive spells off in the first turn of the game, and have a lot of fun with realm spells.]

If you're worried about being a static/a gunline, then don't take handgunners. Take mobile reavers or cheap Freeguild Guard as battleline, you'll have a lot more fun while being able to take objectives, and your opponents will hate you a lot less.

You can use a Steam Tank alongside Collegiate stuff in both Greywater Fastness and (ubiquitous) Hammerhal armies. If you're looking for a similar cheap screeny unit to Skinks that isn't Skinks... Aetherwings? 50 points for 3, the're much more objective grabbers/redirectors than low key tarpits, but can be equally annoying in the hands of a competent player.

[Frowny]

The problem I can see with the war council is it's quite a lot of points. Like 1200 for the whole thing. And then you are almost  guaranteed another 100 for endless spells. Doesn'tme much more room to play with, since it would be neat to try out other things as well... Seems like a cool idea and battalion limits by no battle line, as are most of the smaller order factions

[Gwendar]

13 hours ago, Frowny said:

Commenting on the above, couldn't you take a free peoples army and then ally in 3-4 Ballistas? Would give you some artillery and still let you use the free companies? Also stormcast fit in any of the cities if you are going that route. I'm not sure if anyone has done the math but they seem stronger than more traditional cannons in a lot of ways and are a lot less vulnerable for sure. Doesn't help you with the tank question though. 

Sure, I thought of that and just replacing the crew with freeguild guys to make it not look so...stormcast. I'm not exactly tied to the idea of the rocket batteries, and I can easily see the ballistas would be better and save some points. But no matter what, I want at least 2 tanks, so I would be a little forced into GA Order, which is fine since I would want to run Greywater with that much artillery/tanks.

The latest question was more or less; Do I want to do 3x10 handgunners, or 1x30? To be honest, I'm starting to think about dropping the handgunners altogether, going 3x20 Guard, 2x10 Greatswords and 4 ballistas along with 2 tanks, an Ordinator and General. That may be a little more solid as I should have enough ranged punch from the ballistas and tanks to not really need the handgunners. Leaves me with 80 points for something as well.

[Charlo]

23 hours ago, Frowny said:

The problem I can see with the war council is it's quite a lot of points. Like 1200 for the whole thing. And then you are almost  guaranteed another 100 for endless spells. Doesn'tme much more room to play with, since it would be neat to try out other things as well... Seems like a cool idea and battalion limits by no battle line, as are most of the smaller order factions

Very true...

But considering you could then take some hardy battleline and start dropping Endless Spells with a massive range boost and +5 to cast on the other side of the board, could end up being rather powerful in a roundabout way. Which spells would be best? Go balls out with a Purple Sun with an extra range and maybe some swords for extra fun?

May have to try this for lols....

Speaking of, which battleline would you use? Options are:

• Dwarf Warriors
• Free Guild Guns/ Bows/ Crossbows/ Guard
• Vulkite 'Zerkers
• Liberators

Warriors seem the best choice, they work well in big and small units and can get a very good shield and some rend. Could even include a Runesmith for more rend if need be?

Edited September 19, 2018 by Charlo

[Hannibal]

Hi, just a short question:

 

Can the free cities rules still be used in matched play? Is it tournament legal?

[flamingwalnut]

38 minutes ago, Hannibal said:

Hi, just a short question:

 

Can the free cities rules still be used in matched play? Is it tournament legal?

Some tournaments may ban them, but they are still intended and legal for Matched Play. And honestly, they should be perfectly fine, none of them are really that broken in practice. When in doubt, though, as the Tournament Organizer before the event.

Edited September 20, 2018 by flamingwalnut

[Gwendar]

Looking back at previous conversations, I've redone the list a bit. Perhaps this is more attractive/competitive:

Allegiance: Greywater Fastness
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Stately War Banner
- Trait: Inspiring 
- Artefact: Phoenix Stone
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Excelsior Warpriest (80)
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Swords and Shields
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Swords and Shields
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Swords and Shields
10 x Freeguild Greatswords (140)
10 x Freeguild Greatswords (140)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Steam Tank (260)
Steam Tank (260)

Total: 2000 / 2000

An unbind+heals from the warpriest, and bit more CC punch from the greatswords. I started to feel like handgunners weren't really needed with the emphasis on artillery, and hopefully 20 guard can hold an objective decently after artillery soften things up. My other idea was to drop a ballista and get in an Archmage for the Elemental shield spell, further improving the guards defense. And that would be an additional unbind.

The second option is dump the ballistas, priest and Greatsword units for 4 rocket batteries. I've no experience with the ballista or rocket batteries, but the 4 rocket battery averages seem good when combined with the Ordinator and that's not counting Greywater allegiance. Not sure how 4 ballistas compare to 4 rocket batteries. Thoughts?

Edited September 20, 2018 by Gwendar

[Mikeboll]

Hi!

Is it possible to play a order draconis army  with dragon blades as battleline in an hallowheart allegiance or do I need to take generic battleline for that?

[Charlo]

 

5 hours ago, Mikeboll said:

Hi!

Is it possible to play a order draconis army  with dragon blades as battleline in an hallowheart allegiance or do I need to take generic battleline for that?

Sadly your battleline is limited to non-specifics in a Hallowheart army.

===

So I've decided to give the War Council a go in a list...

Allegiance: Hallowheart

Realm: Chamon

War Council

Battlemage on Gryphon - Relic: Argent Armour

Celestial Hurricanum with Battlemage

Luminark of Hyish with Battlemage

Battlemage - Jade (Lifesurge)

Battlemage - Grey (Mystifying Miasma)

Battlemage - Gold (Final Transmutation)

Warrior Kinband

Auric Runeson - General: Inspiring - Relic: Runeblade

10 Vulkite 'Zerkers - Picks & Shields

10 Vulkite 'Zerkers - Picks & Shields

10 Vulkite 'Zerkers - Picks & Shields

Purple Sun of Shyish

Umbral Spellportal

TOTAL: 2000

Wizards and their mercenaries who fight on the promise of GOLD!

General idea is using the War Council to easily cast a Purple Sun with silly range to get the opponent sweating and castle up the wizards with a Pallisade to keep them safe while they heal, debuff and maybe try and get a cheeky transmutation off.

EDIT: Just seen in the FAQ that you cannot increase the range of an endless spell and would need to use the Portals to do it. Argh. Swords + Pallisade removed for spellportal!

Luminark/ Hurricanum have strong spells, support abilities and shooting.

Fyreslayers are the battleline of choice as they do a bit of everything; Good Defence, some Rend & Shooting the latter being helped by the buff auras and Kinband. Runeson is the general as he'll be among the Slayers and is not as big a target as the Gryphon. Swords were to keep the theme and eat up a few points.

Runeblade on the Runeson (duh!) gives him a very solid melee profile and Argent Armour keeps the Gryphon safer in melee while he tears it up. I think I have one more relic to choose too, maybe the Godwrought Helm for one of the Wizard Warmachines for a 6+ save after save?

Think it works quite okay being two drops and giving me some bonus CP and relics. Let me know if I've missed anything

One question too... How does the Luminark's Aura of Protection and the Fyreslayer's runes work? Do you roll two dice per lost wound? Or does just one ability take precedent?

Edited September 21, 2018 by Charlo

[Yoshiya]

I believe that list would be illegal as you'd have one too many heroes (6 in the battalion and then the Runeson). Also, whilst I don't know much about Fyreslayers I thought they were generally a go big or go home on their troops to get the ward save. Are they any good without that save?

[flamingwalnut]

On 9/21/2018 at 4:35 AM, Mikeboll said:

Hi!

Is it possible to play a order draconis army  with dragon blades as battleline in an hallowheart allegiance or do I need to take generic battleline for that?

There has been a lot of confusion over this, but yes, you should be able to. The way it works is this: When building an army, you use an allegiance to build your list, and then pick an allegiance ability to use. So, being Order Draconis for list building will allow for Dragon Blade battleline (assuming you stick within allies rules, as you are keeping to a more specific faction. Get too many allies or the wrong allies, and you'd lose Dragon Blade battleline just like any other list)

Then when picking the allegiance ability to use, you only have access to Order Grand Alliance. IF you ever use Order Grand Alliance, you can look to see if you qualify for any Firestorm allegiances. If you have only taken the factions listed in the desired Firestorm allegiance, which Order Draconis will work for Hallowheart. So, assuming all before it has been followed and works, you are good to go, and have a Order Draconis Army with additional rules of Hallowheart. 

Another thing to remember, if you CAN take a more specific allegiance (like Stormcast Eternal, Sylvaneth, etc.) you MUST take that, which invalidates all Firestorm stuff. Honestly, all of this is awfully complicated, I can't wait for a Free Cities battletome.

[Yoshiya]

As far as I'm aware if you can take a specific ability you're not forced to. However, you lose access to faction specific batteline, artefacts and spells.

For example if you're using Judicator battleline you'd have to take the Stormcast abilities otherwise you'd no longer count as a Stormcast army for conditional battleline. However, a 2000pt Stormcast army could take the Order abilities (and any cities) however they'd be limited to Liberators for battleline, only be able to use generic artefacts and warlord traits, and any wizards would only have access to generic spells and the one on their warscroll.

Factions like Order Draconis only have the Order abilities available to them however and as such are allowed to take them even when benefiting from conditional battleline. Since the only condition for cities is that you are an order army using only models from certain factions, you'd thus be able to take Hallowheart abilities.

The only downside is that you'd only be allowed to take allies that Order Draconis can normally take that are also part of the Hallowheart faction.

Like you say, it's needlessly complicated and I hope they make a real battletome for Free Cities one day that simplifies it.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Yoshiya

[Charlo]

On 9/22/2018 at 7:09 AM, Yoshiya said:

I believe that list would be illegal as you'd have one too many heroes (6 in the battalion and then the Runeson). Also, whilst I don't know much about Fyreslayers I thought they were generally a go big or go home on their troops to get the ward save. Are they any good without that save?

You're right, was probably thinking in terms of not using the mages on the war machines... I'll just lose one of the spells.

I thought that about Fyreslayers too but they seem decent in the battalion, double shooting, more pile in etc. Plus they still get a ward save it's just 5/6+ imo theyre pretty good with some rend and potential mortal wounds - however I'm yet to play a game!

What alternative battleline would you go with from generic order?

[Beliman]

7 hours ago, Yoshiya said:

As far as I'm aware if you can take a specific ability you're not forced to. However, you lose access to faction specific batteline, artefacts and spells.

For example if you're using Judicator battleline you'd have to take the Stormcast abilities otherwise you'd no longer count as a Stormcast army for conditional battleline. However, a 2000pt Stormcast army could take the Order abilities (and any cities) however they'd be limited to Liberators for battleline, only be able to use generic artefacts and warlord traits, and any wizards would only have access to generic spells and the one on their warscroll.

Factions like Order Draconis only have the Order abilities available to them however and as such are allowed to take them even when benefiting from conditional battleline. Since the only condition for cities is that you are an order army using only models from certain factions, you'd thus be able to take Hallowheart abilities.

The only downside is that you'd only be allowed to take allies that Order Draconis can normally take that are also part of the Hallowheart faction.

Like you say, it's needlessly complicated and I hope they make a real battletome for Free Cities one day that simplifies it.

Our gaming group plays a bit diferent, but we usually  follow the same points:

1-You build a list. To build that list, you need to have at least the same keyword in all your units (can be Order, Stormcast, whatever...).

1.1-Doing your list, you can unlock some new battlelines (taking X general or whatever*).

1.2: Allies don't need to have the same keyword but they have their own rules to be allowed to be taken (Allegiance keywords from point 2).

2-Chose your Allegiance. If all your units (ignoring allies, 1.2) have the same keyword (point 1), you can chose your Allegiance and unlock some Allegiance Abilities: Battle traits, Artefacts of Power, Spell Lores and Unique Abilities (prayers, hosts, mount traits, etc...). If your army can chose multiple Allegiances Abilities (for example, Order and Stormcast), they must chose their specific Allegiance Abilitites (FAQ**). Some armies don't have Allegiance Abilitites, so you can chose the GA Allegiance Abilities (ex.: Swifthawk Agents army has the Swifthawk Agent keyword, but don't have any Allegiance Abilitites, still they have the option of  "Battleline If...").

2.1- If your army took the GA Allegiance Abilities, then, you can take a Free City (if your units have the keyword for that city).

2.2- Don't know if allies needs to have the same keywords to be from that city too, or they don't recieve the Freecity abilitites. Anybody knows something about that?

3-After building your list, chosing your Allegiance, unlocking Allegiance Abilitites and (if you are allowed) Free Cities abilities, your can chose a Realm for your army to unlock new Artefacts and Weapons (they are from that realm).

4-Chose the Battle Realm where your match will play to unlock New Spells.

5-Equip your heroes with all the unlocked Artefacts, Spells, Prayers, etc... following their rules.

6-PLAY THE GAME!!!!!

*-The Warscroll builder seems to follow another rules. It seems that the Allegiance  is what unlocks this "Battlelin if...", but I can't find anything in the rules. maybe someone can find any rule to clarify that?

**-Faq: Page 62 – Pitched Battle Profile, Introduction Add the following section: ‘ARMIES WITHOUT ALLEGIANCE ABILITIES If a faction army does not have a set of allegiance abilities, then you can use its Grand Alliance allegiance abilities instead. For example, if you had an Eshin army you could use the Grand Alliance Chaos allegiance abilities, and if you had an Order Draconis army you could use the Grand Alliance Order allegiance abilities. Note that if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.’

 

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Beliman

[Yoshiya]

I can understand how your group might reach that conclusion but personally I think you pick allegiance before you make the list. Otherwise your list will be illegal and not able to move onto step 2 in the case of conditional battleline.

Based on this you can chose GA allegiance and then build a list using only one factions units but not gain access to the stuff that makes that faction unique.

That said, given how vague it is and how rarely this comes up I think you could see either way as correct until specified by GW.

[Beliman]

2 hours ago, Yoshiya said:

I can understand how your group might reach that conclusion but personally I think you pick allegiance before you make the list. Otherwise your list will be illegal and not able to move onto step 2 in the case of conditional battleline.

It seems to be the case. But from the core rules, you don't chose an Allegiance, you unlock them (so you need to make a list, taking in mind what you want). At least, that's what we interpreted just reading the rules (there is even an exemple).

2 hours ago, Yoshiya said:

Based on this you can chose GA allegiance and then build a list using only one factions units but not gain access to the stuff that makes that faction unique.

From the FAQ, you unlock what you can chose. So, if you take GA but you still have another (more specific) keyword (ex.:Stormcast Eternals), and that keyword  unlocks another Allegiance Abilities, you must take them (removing your option to take the GA ones).

2 hours ago, Yoshiya said:

That said, given how vague it is and how rarely this comes up I think you could see either way as correct until specified by GW.

I think that RAI, you are right. You take an Allegiance, and then, if your Allegiance doesn't have any Allegiance Abilities (so you are forces to take GA), then, you can use the free city abilitites.

P.D: They need to clean up the rules about when you can take "battleline if...".

[Gwendar]

New ideas, especially now that I really like the idea of a Hurricanum. Unsure of realm artifacts to give out.

Allegiance: Greywater Fastness
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (380)
Archmage (100)
Lord-Ordinator (140)
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Swords and Shields
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Swords and Shields
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Steam Tank (260)
Steam Tank (260)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000

This gives me +1 to hit from both the Ordinator and the Hurricanum, and plan to have everything within 18" range if possible. Archmage provides some defensive buffs with Elemental Shield to everything within 18" as well, which is increased with the BW. Again, meant to be a fluff list, but if it could be made  a little more competitive I'm all ears. I realize this is mostly an ultra-turtle list and objective capture will not be in my favor.

The other option I considered was adding a Luminark and dropping 10 more Guard, Archmage, and endless spells. Thoughts?

Edited September 28, 2018 by Gwendar

[flamingwalnut]

The Luminark and Archmage are a great combo, if you add one I'd keep the Archmage. But really, I am mostly just iffy on the number of boots on the ground that will screen you. As well, making sure everyone is packed around the Hurricanum can make LoS awkward. But it could be awesome. Try a game with it, would be curious how well it does in practice.