AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[Moogypies]

Hey,

I am to play a game upcoming soon and wanted a lesser used allegiance to fit a nice Narrative Game (Matched Play rules still)

Game will take place in Realm of Life, using all realm rules/spells.
Battleplan is "For the Cascading Path" Slightly edited so the forces of chaos are invading Greywater Fastness instead of a realmgate.

The list is below-

Allegiance: Greywater Fastness
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Gunmaster (80)
Freeguild General on Griffon (260)
- Shield & Greathammer
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Shield & Sigmarite Weapon
- Trait: Inspiring
Freeguild General (100)
- Shield & Sigmarite Weapon
- Horse
-Stately War Banner
10 x Freeguild Crossbowmen (100)
30 x Freeguild Archers (300)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
40 x Freeguild Guard (280)
- Halberds and Shields
6 x Demigryph Knights (280)
- Lance and Sword
3 x Demigryph Knights (140)
- Lance and Sword
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 162


Now I know, I could very easily take the free peoples Alleigance here and have some better traits, but it wouldn't fit the 1 in 4 units can be allies rule, to include 2 artillery pieces and a gunmaster.

But my main decision i'm having a hard time is, would it be worth switching out one of the generals to a battlemage for access to spells/dispels (Opponent only has 1 mage) bearing in mind the Horse one is on a old griffon using horse rules and flies off with the demigryphs and foot one stays giving the free people immunity to battleshock.

I would also like to test this out further then narrative taking it to the table normally and seeing how it would work, I think hellblasters have the most potential with the extra hits and rerolls from the engineer.

[XReN]

On 3/27/2019 at 10:51 PM, Moogypies said:

Now I know, I could very easily take the free peoples Alleigance here and have some better traits, but it wouldn't fit the 1 in 4 units can be allies rule, to include 2 artillery pieces and a gunmaster.

You have precisely the right amount of allies and therefore must use Freepeoples Allegiance Abilities

[Moogypies]

4 hours ago, XReN said:

You have precisely the right amount of allies and therefore must use Freepeoples Allegiance Abilities

Swap a Freeguild General for a mage to make it legal then  

Edited April 4, 2019 by Moogypies

[Double Misfire]

On 4/4/2019 at 2:05 PM, XReN said:

You have precisely the right amount of allies and therefore must use Freepeoples Allegiance Abilities

Eh?

As long as you're not taking allegiance dependant battleline, you can always run a "pure" army as it's grand alliance allegiance (and by extension Firestorm/Free City allegiance), there just aren't normally a lot of gameplay advantages in doing so. 🤨

[Hannibal]

4 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Eh?

As long as you're not taking allegiance dependant battleline, you can always run a "pure" army as it's grand alliance allegiance (and by extension Firestorm/Free City allegiance), there just aren't normally a lot of gameplay advantages in doing so. 🤨

From the General´s Handbook Errata:

Page 62 – Pitched Battle Profiles, IntroductionAdd the following section:‘ARMIES WITHOUT ALLEGIANCE ABILITIESIf a faction army does not have a set of allegiance abilities, then you can use its Grand Alliance allegiance abilities instead. For example, if you had an Eshin army you could use the Grand Alliance Chaos allegiance abilities, and if you had an Order Draconis army you could use the Grand Alliance Order allegiance abilities. Note that if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.’

But it´s simple. All you have to do is include one "Order battline unit" which is not from your chosen faction and which you need to fill battleline requirements. That way you have to play Grand Alliance Order.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Hannibal

[Double Misfire]

46 minutes ago, Hannibal said:

From the General´s Handbook Errata:

Page 62 – Pitched Battle Profiles, IntroductionAdd the following section:‘ARMIES WITHOUT ALLEGIANCE ABILITIESIf a faction army does not have a set of allegiance abilities, then you can use its Grand Alliance allegiance abilities instead. For example, if you had an Eshin army you could use the Grand Alliance Chaos allegiance abilities, and if you had an Order Draconis army you could use the Grand Alliance Order allegiance abilities. Note that if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.’

But it´s simple. All you have to do is include one "Order battline unit" which is not from your chosen faction and which you need to fill battleline requirements. That way you have to play Grand Alliance Order.

A (matched play legal) Order grand alliance army made up entirely of Free Peoples units is still an Order army. if you want it to be. If you had an army that you couldn't take without filling your minimum battleline slots with Demigryph Knights and Greatswords, only then would you be forced to use it as Free Peoples faction army.

The examples given in the errata, Order Draconis and (pre Skaven battletome) Eshin both have allegiance dependant battleline, and (at the time of writing) did not have allegiance abilities of their own. In both instances they are faction armies without faction allegiance abilities of their own. The purpose of the errata is to allow factions who do not have their own set of allegiance abilities to use their grand alliance allegiance abilities instead. An army made up entirely of Free Peoples units, with minimum battleline slots filled by Freeguild Guard, Handgunners, Crossbowmen and Archers is not by default a faction army, and can be played as a grand alliance (and by extension) Firestorm/Free City army should you choose to.

The most recent Firestorm errata even uses the example of an Anvilgard army made up entirely of Stormcast units. 🤷‍♂️

[flamingwalnut]

46 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

A (matched play legal) Order grand alliance army made up entirely of Free Peoples units is still an Order army. if you want it to be. If you had an army that you couldn't take without filling your minimum battleline slots with Demigryph Knights and Greatswords, only then would you be forced to use it as Free Peoples faction army.

The examples given in the errata, Order Draconis and (pre Skaven battletome) Eshin both have allegiance dependant battleline, and (at the time of writing) did not have allegiance abilities of their own. In both instances they are faction armies without faction allegiance abilities of their own. The purpose of the errata is to allow factions who do not have their own set of allegiance abilities to use their grand alliance allegiance abilities instead. An army made up entirely of Free Peoples units, with minimum battleline slots filled by Freeguild Guard, Handgunners, Crossbowmen and Archers is not by default a faction army, and can be played as a grand alliance (and by extension) Firestorm/Free City army should you choose to.

The most recent Firestorm errata even uses the example of an Anvilgard army made up entirely of Stormcast units. 🤷‍♂️

Wow...the fact that the Firestorm errata uses full Stormcast as an example just throws this into craziness.

The last line in the above errata was the one that mattered the most: "If Allegiance ability exist for a faction army, you must use them." That means you can never have a Stormcast army that uses Grand Alliance Order rules, at least for that. They have an allegiance ability, you qualify for it, thus you use that. FEELS easy, until the Firestorm errata that mentions that SPECIFICALLY.

Personally, it feels like the example they gave was just poorly thought out. I would bet that they MEANT use that as an example of "use the factions that are listed on each city to build them. The rest are allies." Them saying an army made ENTIRELY of Stormcast can be Anvilguard, I think that was a poor choice? 

Either way, the two errata conflict. You NEED to use Grand Alliance rules to use the City rules, but you CAN'T use the Grand Alliance rules if you have access to a faction allegiance ability. I feel like the General's Handbook errata overrides the random example in the Firestorm errata, simply because one is a rule and the other is an example, they just chose the example poorly.

Of course, this all just highlights the overall problem of Firestorm and allegiances. It is just...confusing. I REALLY hope they clear this up with a Battletome, or at least a clearer example in the General's Handbook. For now, guess it kind of depends on who you face. Personally, I could care less, though I do prefer the idea of a Free City army mixing more than not. But whatever floats people's boat. 

[Thiagoma]

The whole battleline issue with Firestorm is a mess. Wish they would just make a 2.0 version of it.

[Charlo]

SO... Updated Sylvaneth rules means perhaps some new tricks for the Living City?

For one the Treelord Ancient is now one Guaranteed wood - so that's pretty cool! In addition the Stomp ability is quite nice!

Anything else cool?

[StapMyVitals]

From what I've heard, the new Wyldwoods will do potential damage to non-Sylvaneth every turn, rather than if they run or charge, so it might be slightly less effective (though that's not taking into account a guaranteed wood).

On the other hand, I can't believe I never considered the Living City before as a list. Sylvaneth and Stormcast do what they do but better, but it directly fixes a huge problem with Freeguild: mobility.

[flamingwalnut]

I have my fingers crossed that maybe, MAYBE, there may be some Free Cities allegiance acknowledgment in the next General's Handbook. I have no idea what it would be, but there is a lot of allegiances from last General's Handbook that now have books and not TOO many more that still don't have allegiances (assuming some condensing is done and there are just one or two High Elf ones...)

Would be absolutely delighted if they kept Firestorm "in the loop" by putting at least some of it into the General's Handbook. Not that I will hold my breath, but boy would I finally just pull the trigger and get my Order where I WANT it to be! 

[dekay]

As apparently GHB changed nothing regarding the Free Cities situation, I was wondering about one thing:

One of the controversial issues regarding Firestorm rules is if factions without allegiance abilities can use Firestorm ability while retaining their faction allegiance. Ie. pure phoenix temple army but with phoenicium ability on top of their standard Order one. There's no real way to get fully 'official' ruling on this, but has anyone tried asking GW tournament team? We wouldn't get 'is that legal' answer from them, but we could get 'can I use it in official events' one at least. And it's some sort of an indicator.

[JackStreicher]

5 minutes ago, dekay said:

As apparently GHB changed nothing regarding the Free Cities situation, I was wondering about one thing:

One of the controversial issues regarding Firestorm rules is if factions without allegiance abilities can use Firestorm ability while retaining their faction allegiance. Ie. pure phoenix temple army but with phoenicium ability on top of their standard Order one. There's no real way to get fully 'official' ruling on this, but has anyone tried asking GW tournament team? We wouldn't get 'is that legal' answer from them, but we could get 'can I use it in official events' one at least. And it's some sort of an indicator.

Wasn‘t that put in an errata? Something along the lines of „you have to choose the according grand Alliance as Allegiance and you lose your faction allegiance but you will also get the free city allegiance“

[dekay]

Yeah it kinda was.

"When you organise your collection to be an army from a specific city or under the command of a specific warlord, you must use the Grand Alliance allegiance abilities for your army, but you can also use the City & Warlord allegiance abilities on the following pages. Any units that do not have the keywords listed under the Organisation for the army can be taken as allies if they are part of the same Grand Alliance as the army."

However given how it is worded there's still some conflict what it actually means.

Factions with their own ability must always use it, so no choosing 'Stormcast' allegiance but using 'Order' ability. That is clear. You must use 'Order' army and fill it with whatever you want as long as it's in the city's allowed faction list.

But factions without their ability? Can there be an 'Eldritch Council' allegiance army using 'Order' allegiance ability [due to not having any other] and gaining a free city bonus on top of that? Faq mentions only allegiance *ability* not the allegiance itself, But for some it's not so clear cut, especially that warscroll builder lists every city as separate allegiance (which is not the case in the rules, but well, here we are..)

And the example provided doesn't help at all, as it mentions Stormcasts and Free Peoples, both factions with their own abilities.

 

[StapMyVitals]

I'm sure there was an errata or Warhammer Community post about factions like Devoted of Sigmar and Phoenix Temples where it said that any faction that didn't have allegiance abilities in the General's Handbook or a battletome just follow the rules of their Grand Alliance, so for example a Gutbuster allegiance army can use Ironguts as battleline but otherwise can only use the command traits and artefacts that Destruction provides. I can't find it right now, but my reading of it would be that Eldritch Council, for instance, has an allegiance ability which is the same as Grand Alliance: Order, which can therefore be switched with a Free City allegiance. This would mean that they can use the Free City rules for whichever cities they're included in (Hammerhal, Hallowheart, and Tempest's Eye) but would need to find a battleline unit other than Swordmasters if they did that.

[Charlo]

Yup that's the one. You only have Grand Alliance Order battleline in free cities.

[dekay]

7 hours ago, StapMyVitals said:

I'm sure there was an errata or Warhammer Community post about factions like Devoted of Sigmar and Phoenix Temples where it said that any faction that didn't have allegiance abilities in the General's Handbook or a battletome just follow the rules of their Grand Alliance, so for example a Gutbuster allegiance army can use Ironguts as battleline but otherwise can only use the command traits and artefacts that Destruction provides. I can't find it right now, but my reading of it would be that Eldritch Council, for instance, has an allegiance ability which is the same as Grand Alliance: Order, which can therefore be switched with a Free City allegiance. This would mean that they can use the Free City rules for whichever cities they're included in (Hammerhal, Hallowheart, and Tempest's Eye) but would need to find a battleline unit other than Swordmasters if they did that.

And that would be errata i'm looking for, as it would resolve the issue. Do you have the source?

Because rules as written firestorm ability interact only with allegiance *ability* not allegiance itself, generating some confusion (mine included ;)). I haven't found any clarification that firestorm army must have Order allegiance, only that it needs to use Order ability. Which, for instance, pure Devoted of Sigmar army does. Only thing they get from their allegiance are flagellants as battleline, while the ability is Order one.

[Lightbox]

So now that I have contrast paints to make the idea of painting white and blue kinda palatable I'm considering taking my free peoples & other mixed order back to my original root ideas of basing them on Dragon Age's grey wardens, because it perfectly fits the mixed race ideals of the free cities! Though it would be best to run them as a free city I'm struggling to decide which to pick.

Considerations of some cities:
-Tempests eye (Only dwarves are steampunky but as an army I already play having kharadrons in as my dwarves would be easy, though would be the wrong colour. Ability would be quite fun too)
-Hallowheart (High elves could work and the ability would be fun, though would work better fluff wise as a Templar heavy force as opposed to a grey warden heavy)
-The living city (Free peoples for humans, wanderers for dalish, dispossessed for dwarves and a fun looking ability for wardens? Sounds like a nice option, though no collegiate arcane is a shame as is relying on dispossessed because they're not my favourite looking dwarves, nor do I know what they'd bring that wanderers or freeguild wouldn't already kinda cover)
-Greywater (CANNONS! Okay so sure gunpowder isn't very themely for grey wardens, but dwarven cannons would be a cool addition to support my freeguild and wanderers, plus collegiate arcane for the fun luminark or hurricanum they bring, ability however would mean I'd have to go gunpowder heavy)
-Phoenicium (Ability feels really themely for a close-knit brotherhood like the wardens. But phoenix guard look kinda silly, headswaps would help. Lacking magic though without allies)

On the bright side I can use allies to help make up for any particular laps in theme. I'm hoping people might be able to suggest which cities work well with a combination of the races as opposed to just focusing on one. I would like primarily freeguild because I'm a human fan at heart (and tbh those games are like 70% humans at least.) I'm worried less about which city is the best theme wise as it would be a loose basis I will adapt for AoS and mostly I'm nabbing the colour scheme and the idea that they risk their lives to fight back tides of monsters and more interested in knowing which abilities or city unit selections allow for more fun and interesting playstyles. I can see pheonicium and living cities abilities making for some interesting play for sure.

[Double Misfire]

2 hours ago, Lightbox said:

So now that I have contrast paints to make the idea of painting white and blue kinda palatable I'm considering taking my free peoples & other mixed order back to my original root ideas of basing them on Dragon Age's grey wardens, because it perfectly fits the mixed race ideals of the free cities! Though it would be best to run them as a free city I'm struggling to decide which to pick.

Considerations of some cities:
-Tempests eye (Only dwarves are steampunky but as an army I already play having kharadrons in as my dwarves would be easy, though would be the wrong colour. Ability would be quite fun too)
-Hallowheart (High elves could work and the ability would be fun, though would work better fluff wise as a Templar heavy force as opposed to a grey warden heavy)
-The living city (Free peoples for humans, wanderers for dalish, dispossessed for dwarves and a fun looking ability for wardens? Sounds like a nice option, though no collegiate arcane is a shame as is relying on dispossessed because they're not my favourite looking dwarves, nor do I know what they'd bring that wanderers or freeguild wouldn't already kinda cover)
-Greywater (CANNONS! Okay so sure gunpowder isn't very themely for grey wardens, but dwarven cannons would be a cool addition to support my freeguild and wanderers, plus collegiate arcane for the fun luminark or hurricanum they bring, ability however would mean I'd have to go gunpowder heavy)
-Phoenicium (Ability feels really themely for a close-knit brotherhood like the wardens. But phoenix guard look kinda silly, headswaps would help. Lacking magic though without allies)

On the bright side I can use allies to help make up for any particular laps in theme. I'm hoping people might be able to suggest which cities work well with a combination of the races as opposed to just focusing on one. I would like primarily freeguild because I'm a human fan at heart (and tbh those games are like 70% humans at least.) I'm worried less about which city is the best theme wise as it would be a loose basis I will adapt for AoS and mostly I'm nabbing the colour scheme and the idea that they risk their lives to fight back tides of monsters and more interested in knowing which abilities or city unit selections allow for more fun and interesting playstyles. I can see pheonicium and living cities abilities making for some interesting play for sure.

I'd go for Tempest's Eye. You're planning on painting your dudes blue and white, and they've got the most useful rules and are my personal favourite and therefore obviously the premiere Free City.  

You do know Tempest's Eye have been updated to allow Dispossessed and Ironweld Arsenal in the errata, right?  

[Spears]

So firestorm organisation explicitly says you can include battalions with the relevant keyword is that still true post faqs etc?

[Lightbox]

39 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

I'd go for Tempest's Eye. You're planning on painting your dudes blue and white, and they've got the most useful rules and are my personal favourite and therefore obviously the premiere Free City.  

You do know Tempest's Eye have been updated to allow Dispossessed and Ironweld Arsenal in the errata, right?  

...

Ready the cannons!

[Double Misfire]

1 hour ago, Spears said:

So firestorm organisation explicitly says you can include battalions with the relevant keyword is that still true post faqs etc?

I hope so. There'd be no way to take an Ironweld Arsenal Artillery Detachment outside of Firestorm allegiances and bog standard Order if that were the case.

[Charlo]

So following the GHB19, do any cities now stand out more for people? Any new builds unlocked from points changes? 

Obviously the Hurricanum/ Luminark are big winners from the drops, but what about anything else? Are the ubiquitous Dawii Warriors still the goto battleline with their increase?!

[Lure Of The Gods]

Just a quick question just to make sure I'm not doing anything wrong.

As your now able to ally in anything from GA:Order does that mean we can ally in named heroes? eg. can I now ally Drycha into my Living City army? 

[Nick in York]

On 7/15/2019 at 1:56 AM, Lure Of The Gods said:

Just a quick question just to make sure I'm not doing anything wrong.

As your now able to ally in anything from GA:Order does that mean we can ally in named heroes? eg. can I now ally Drycha into my Living City army? 

I think I've missed something here - where does it say that Free Cities can have any GA: Order allies?