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I'm not making any plans until those numbers are confirmed. Some of them are weird, both with what is on the list and what isn't. I'm not saying they're necessarily fake, GW has done weird things before, but there are enough reasons to be suspicious about those.  Battlemage going up while the Sorceress, a really similar caster is still 90? Were Battlemage's innate spells REALLY that much better than Word of Pain AND command ability combined? Hurricanum, featuring heavily in most cities lists isn't here, and neither is griffon battlemage featuring in exactly none?

Also, other factions on that list are suspicious as well, does anyone think Kharadron Overlords needed almost factionwide point drop?

I'd really wait for official update before any tactical talk.

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Greatswords were already likely the best of the offensive elite infantry

Greatswords screamed to me they needed a price cut. 16 points per model is simply too much  for a 1 wound 4+ save infantry with zero mobility.


Would be kind of floored if eternal guard didn't get knocked down at least 10. Phoenix guard are a better defensive infantry in every way and have none of the drawbacks

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10 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

The elite infantry point changes don't make much sense to me at all. Greatswords were already likely the best of the offensive elite infantry options, and yet they are going down more than the worse Executioners? At 12 points per model greatswords are really quite impressive on offense and not that egregious defensively either. They still have the core problem of being a slow, offensively focused unit... but when they get stuck in they are going to do some serious work.

The elite infantry does make sense to me.  Basically, Phoenix Guard are too good compared to the other units for how many points they cost.  So they could either raise the points of phoenix guard, or lower the points of other elite infantry.  However, as good as phoenix guard are, they aren't exactly running the tables compared to what other factions can do, so GW probably decided that they were worth it at 160 points.  Therefore, other elite infantry needed to drop in points.

9 hours ago, dekay said:

I'm not making any plans until those numbers are confirmed. Some of them are weird, both with what is on the list and what isn't. I'm not saying they're necessarily fake, GW has done weird things before, but there are enough reasons to be suspicious about those.  Battlemage going up while the Sorceress, a really similar caster is still 90? Were Battlemage's innate spells REALLY that much better than Word of Pain AND command ability combined? Hurricanum, featuring heavily in most cities lists isn't here, and neither is griffon battlemage featuring in exactly none?

Also, other factions on that list are suspicious as well, does anyone think Kharadron Overlords needed almost factionwide point drop?

I'd really wait for official update before any tactical talk.

I agree that I'm not making any plans until the numbers are confirmed.  Luckily, we should know within a week (or is it coming out the weekend after?).

That being said, I can understand raising the points of the battlemage vs the sorceress.  The battlemage gives you a lot more flexibility in the warscroll spells, and lists are more likely to take multiple battlemages rather than multiple sorceresses.  Is that really worth it compared to the sorceress?  Ehhh... maybe?  But I can at least see that as a reasoning to raise their cost.  That being said, I'm kind of wondering if whoever made that change caught that the price of incantors was going down, because at 120 points for them, they are looking a LOT more appealing as a first wizard than a 110 point battlemage...

Also, I really don't understand both not touching the hurricanums, nor the luminark, griffon battlemage, or sorceress on black dragon.  Either the hurricanum needed to go up, or the other 3 needed to drop, because as is the hurricanum outshines the others so badly it isn't even funny.  Though maybe we're getting lucky and they decided to do a warscroll change and give the griffon and sorceress a second spell slot to make them worth bringing?  Yeah, doubtful.

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1 hour ago, readercolin said:

The elite infantry does make sense to me.  Basically, Phoenix Guard....

I should have been more clear that I mean the elite offensive infantry (greatswords, Executioners, Hammerers mainly and arguably Blackguard). What didn't make sense is that greatswords are already better than Executioners, but they are getting a bigger drop. So while Executioners are more viable than they were in a vacuum, they are less attractive than before when compared to greatswords.

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6 hours ago, readercolin said:

That being said, I can understand raising the points of the battlemage vs the sorceress.  The battlemage gives you a lot more flexibility in the warscroll spells, and lists are more likely to take multiple battlemages rather than multiple sorceresses.  Is that really worth it compared to the sorceress?  Ehhh... maybe?  But I can at least see that as a reasoning to raise their cost.  That being said, I'm kind of wondering if whoever made that change caught that the price of incantors was going down, because at 120 points for them, they are looking a LOT more appealing as a first wizard than a 110 point battlemage...

As you said, it would require some real miscommunication due to incantor dropping. Now between cheaper sorceress (with very strong blood sacrifice ability and really solid innate spell) and only a little bit expensive Incantor (with much better survivability and MW dealing skill), only reasons to take battlemages are their innate spells. And, alright, increased probability of getting +1 to cast due to new realm rules, but it's still just a random chance to get +1 (+2 with hurricanum) while Sorceress comes with +2 built in as long as she has minions to sacrifice (and if executioners and blackguard  got cheaper, the pool of availibie minions only grows).

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Hello gals & guys,

I am considering playing an Anvilguard force in a Path to Glory campaign since I have a few ex-dark elves units and I like the concept of PtG campaigns.

However I noticed that the PtG section of our battletome states that while we can use the common battle traits of the Cities of Sigmar + the battle traits of our chosen city, we cannot use any other allegiance abilities (artifacts, command traits, spells, etc.).

Does that mean that if I'm playing Anvilguard in a PtG campaign, I can kiss the Black Market Bounty/Dabblings in Sorcery/Drakeblood Curses good-bye? If yes, then that means the only Illicit Dealing I can use would be the Hidden Agents (+D3 command points).

Additionnally, the Cities of Sigmar PtG section also limits the champion/follower rewards to 1 per unit (yes, even the champion can earn only 1 reward).

I checked my other battletomes (Slaanesh & Stormcast) and saw no limitation to their allegiance ablities in their PtG section and no limit to the champion/followers rewards. Are there other recent battletomes that share those limitation or is it just a middle finger adressed specifically to the Cities of Sigmar?

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Just out of curiosity but with the price increase to Battlemages do you think there will be an updated warscroll to reflect the new update to the Realms ? Some of the spells have clearly changed (chamon is much more interesting now tbh). Logically you would say that these should replace the ones the Battlemages have on their warscrolls, but the question is, do you think GW will do it ?

Since they very rarely updated Warscrolls outside of when the whole book is released for individual army...

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4 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Just out of curiosity but with the price increase to Battlemages do you think there will be an updated warscroll to reflect the new update to the Realms ? Some of the spells have clearly changed (chamon is much more interesting now tbh). Logically you would say that these should replace the ones the Battlemages have on their warscrolls, but the question is, do you think GW will do it ?

Since they very rarely updated Warscrolls outside of when the whole book is released for individual army...

That would be very surprising. Although the battlemage nerf was also surprising. So I guess it's not LITERALLY impossible.

My first guess would be somebody on the team didn't like playing against Hallowheart and mistook the battlemage for a critical element of that army though.

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46 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

That would be very surprising. Although the battlemage nerf was also surprising. So I guess it's not LITERALLY impossible.

My first guess would be somebody on the team didn't like playing against Hallowheart and mistook the battlemage for a critical element of that army though.

Honestly, it was probably nerfed because that is the only mage that you would really run multiples of.

Think about it.  If you bring a sorceress, you get an ok spell and a potential for a +2 bonus to cast.  However, bring a second sorceress, and you get... the exact same thing, and the +2 to cast is going to cost you another model again.

Meanwhile, if you bring a battlemage, you get a spell, and you can get a +1 from a hurricanum.  However, if you bring a second battlemage, you can get another completely different spell, and it isn't costing you anything extra to continue getting your +1 from the hurricanum.  This means that if you are running multiple wizards, it really pays off more to run multiple battlemages over multiple sorceress's.

On top of all of this, you can say that you can always run a stormcast wizard instead.  However, stormcast units come with a tax, you can't just toss another one in.  Yes, the first unit is generally a free-roll, but getting the 2nd stormcast unit starts to get a little costly, and a 3rd one gets really expensive with the number of drops that you will have to run.  This introduces a tradeoff for them as well.

So what you get is a unit that you can benefit from running multiples of going up in points so that they cost a little more to do so.  20 points more for a sorceress generally isn't going to make a significant impact, just because you are going to run 1, maaaaaaybe 2 at most.  20 points more for a battlemage matters though, because you are much more likely to run 2-3 of them.

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10 hours ago, readercolin said:

Honestly, it was probably nerfed because that is the only mage that you would really run multiples of.

Think about it.  If you bring a sorceress, you get an ok spell and a potential for a +2 bonus to cast.  However, bring a second sorceress, and you get... the exact same thing, and the +2 to cast is going to cost you another model again.

Meanwhile, if you bring a battlemage, you get a spell, and you can get a +1 from a hurricanum.  However, if you bring a second battlemage, you can get another completely different spell, and it isn't costing you anything extra to continue getting your +1 from the hurricanum.  This means that if you are running multiple wizards, it really pays off more to run multiple battlemages over multiple sorceress's.

On top of all of this, you can say that you can always run a stormcast wizard instead.  However, stormcast units come with a tax, you can't just toss another one in.  Yes, the first unit is generally a free-roll, but getting the 2nd stormcast unit starts to get a little costly, and a 3rd one gets really expensive with the number of drops that you will have to run.  This introduces a tradeoff for them as well.

So what you get is a unit that you can benefit from running multiples of going up in points so that they cost a little more to do so.  20 points more for a sorceress generally isn't going to make a significant impact, just because you are going to run 1, maaaaaaybe 2 at most.  20 points more for a battlemage matters though, because you are much more likely to run 2-3 of them.

I think in Hallowheart you rarely can  go lower than 8 units, and for only 10 points more Knight Incantors are just so much better than battlemages. So currently i will probably just go for 2 Incantors, Hurricanum and a sorceress. Even the Lord-Arcanum is an option now, although probably still too expensive.

I think it sucks, because i liked the gimmicky battlemage spells, which i felt were nowhere close to being too strong, especially compared with the hallowheart city spells. Sure 90 points for 2 spells was quite good before, but i don't think magic-heavy hallowheart was too strong in the first place. Seems a bit off to me. Especially as the hurricanum was untouched, which i was almost certain of getting a point increase.

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Posted (edited)

I'm using a block of 30 Greatswords again in my Hammerhal army, and with some protection they performed really well; especially when I can get them fighting twice. They paired well with Demigryphs, as while there's no synergy between them, splitting threats across the army reduced my opponent's focus on them. At 30, they're 120 for 10 which is where they should be.

I ran a Luminark beside them for a -1 to hit 6+ ward which was enough to get them into combat vs shooty Tempest's Eye.

On another note, I had 2 unbuffed Demigryph Knights off 20 Ironbreakers; killing 11 and then rolled a 6 for battleshock.

Edited by Dankboss

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39 minutes ago, Dankboss said:

I ran a Luminark beside them for a -1 to hit 6+ ward which was enough to get them into combat vs shooty Tempest's Eye.

Is that -1 from Pha`s Protection ?

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Just now, Myrdin said:

Is that -1 from Pha`s Protection ?

Yep.

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I also thougt about playing Greatswords again. 30 seem like good investment if you screen then well. Do you guys think a Freeguild General on Foot is necessary to buff them or do you think the points would better be invested in a hurricanum or luminarc nearby? 

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Just now, Lord Hightower said:

I also thougt about playing Greatswords again. 30 seem like good investment if you screen then well. Do you guys think a Freeguild General on Foot is necessary to buff them or do you think the points would better be invested in a hurricanum or luminarc nearby? 

Honestly, I've used Hold the Line like 2-3 times since the book came out; the game moves too fast for it. All out Attack or just having a Freeguild General nearby is enough buffing for Greatswords.

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Posted (edited)

with the new realm magic and artifacts changes in the GHB2020 I think Chamon has become quite interesting option for us now. 

Allows for pushing some of the more beefier units to a 2+ save which is something to consider! 

Unless MW are involved those 6 chocobo riders with 4W and a magically buffed up to 2+ save (and possibly a pha`s protection in place) can become quite the anvil that also at the same time acts like a small hammer.

Makes me much more interested in trying a bigger unit of them, or maybe even Drakespawn knigts as the budget moving wall option might be a thing to consider.

Edited by Myrdin

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Just now, Myrdin said:

with the new realm magic and artifacts changes in the GHB2020 I think Chamon has become quite interesting option for us now. 

Allows for pushing some of the more beefier units to a 2+ save which is something to consider! 

Unless MW are involved those 6 chocobo riders with 4W and a magically buffed up 2+ (and possibly a pha`s protection in place) can become quite the anvil that also at the same time acts like a small hammer.

Makes me much more interested in trying a bigger unit of them, or maybe even Drakespawn knigts as the budget moving wall option might be a thing to consider.

I thought you have to be in the realm to cast the spell?

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Dankboss said:

I thought you have to be in the realm to cast the spell?

Correct. But since both players get to choose one realm its a 50/50 which one you`ll end up unless you decide beforehand  (narrative games, campaign or tournament where each table represents a realm come to mind as examples :) )

Edited by Myrdin
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The new GHB really raises a bunch of interesting questions for Cities.

Some brief thoughts on the new points:

Spoiler
  • Longbeards with shields are among the most defensively efficient units in the game in melee and are decent against ranged attacks as well. With their additional utility I think they deserve a thought in a lot more lists.
  • I don't like Scourgerunner chariots nearly as much now. As cheap drops for Living City they get beat out by gyros and Aetherwings now. In units they compete against pistoliers/outriders and gyros. In a unit of 3 they have a WDR (measure of offensive efficiency weighted across all armor types) of .0598 and a defensive efficiency vs. rend 0 of .129. Gyros have a pretty different usage profile, but suffice to say they are both a bit better on defense. Bombers are much better on offense when dropping their bombs while copters with steam guns are better of offense if they are targeting more than 8 models even if they don't drop their bombs. Pistoliers are also a bit different in usage, but are better on defense (.15) and much better on offense when charging (.0887 from ranged fire and an extra .0417 from melee). Outriders are the most similar usage and are better on defense (.15) while being a bit worse on offense (.0433). So yeah, still viable I think but not nearly as outstanding.
  • Greatswords are incredibly efficient on offense and average-ish on defense now. Statistically they are a very solid unit but they still have a difficult niche (offense focused infantry).

Beyond that I think the new battleplans and auxiliaries system pushes our list building even further. We need to think more about leaders, battleline, and fielding a balanced force now. The good news is that we have tons of options for battleline, but many options are conditional. We need to be really thoughtful about which units we extend battleline to now if we are expecting to see the "battleline matters" battleplans.

 

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On 7/22/2020 at 12:12 AM, readercolin said:

Honestly, it was probably nerfed because that is the only mage that you would really run multiples of.

Think about it.  If you bring a sorceress, you get an ok spell and a potential for a +2 bonus to cast.  However, bring a second sorceress, and you get... the exact same thing, and the +2 to cast is going to cost you another model again.

Meanwhile, if you bring a battlemage, you get a spell, and you can get a +1 from a hurricanum.  However, if you bring a second battlemage, you can get another completely different spell, and it isn't costing you anything extra to continue getting your +1 from the hurricanum.  This means that if you are running multiple wizards, it really pays off more to run multiple battlemages over multiple sorceress's.

On top of all of this, you can say that you can always run a stormcast wizard instead.  However, stormcast units come with a tax, you can't just toss another one in.  Yes, the first unit is generally a free-roll, but getting the 2nd stormcast unit starts to get a little costly, and a 3rd one gets really expensive with the number of drops that you will have to run.  This introduces a tradeoff for them as well.

So what you get is a unit that you can benefit from running multiples of going up in points so that they cost a little more to do so.  20 points more for a sorceress generally isn't going to make a significant impact, just because you are going to run 1, maaaaaaybe 2 at most.  20 points more for a battlemage matters though, because you are much more likely to run 2-3 of them.

I discussed the Battlemage's point increase with my fellow players and at first we couldn't imagine a reason for this. But now we think that the only reason could be the new realm rules. At the start of the game you roll a dice and the winner chooses the realm where the battle takes place. As a Cities of Sigmar player you have a 50% chance of winning this roll and thus deciding that the battle takes place in the realm where your Battlemage is from and thus granting him a +1 to cast bonus. So you always have a 50% chance to get the bonus. In my opinion it's still not worth a 20 points increase and I would prefer the Knight-Incanctor over the Battlemage.

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Posted (edited)

You know, I kinda had a very interesting idea for a Hallowheart - double Lord-Arcanum on a Glyph-Charger isntead of usual Hurricanum core for Channeling CA. But wait, they only have 7 wounds! Too risky if one of them takes damage and then you roll a 6 on Channeling. Well, the thing is, as long as they are both alive, they can revive each other every turn. Also they can heal with potential 2D6 from spells alone.

 

The only question though is how exactly this interaction will work. Let's say you have a Lord-Arcanum with one wound, you use CA Arcane Channeling, you roll a 6, he sufferes 6 MW and dies, but is instantly revived with 1 wound again by other Lord-Arcanum. Does this means that you get a casting bonus of 6, 1 or neither?

 

P.S. A few people mentioned that Stormcast have gone down in points dramatically, but I could not find Stormcast Errata on FAQ page for some reason. Where is it? oO

Edited by Zeblasky

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

 

Edited by Zeblasky

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18 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

You know, I kinda had a very interesting idea for a Hallowheart - double Lord-Arcanum on a Glyph-Charger isntead of usual Hurricanum core for Channeling CA. But wait, they only have 7 wounds! Too risky if one of them takes damage and then you roll a 6 on Channeling. Well, the thing is, as long as they are both alive, they can revive each other every turn. Also they can heal with potential 2D6 from spells alone.

 

The only question though is how exactly this interaction will work. Let's say you have a Lord-Arcanum with one wound, you use CA Arcane Channeling, you roll a 6, he sufferes 6 MW and dies, but is instantly revived with 1 wound again by other Lord-Arcanum. Does this means that you get a casting bonus of 6, 1 or neither?

 

P.S. A few people mentioned that Stormcast have gone down in points dramatically, but I could not find Stormcast Errata on FAQ page for some reason. Where is it? oO

A few things here:

First off, the stormcast don't have any new errata, and their points were included in the general's handbook, so don't show up in the errata.  To see their new points, you need the GHB.

Second, you need to re-read cycle of the storm.

"Once per turn, when a friendly Stormcast Eternal model is slain within 18" of this model, instead of removing the slain model, you can heal 1 wound allocated to it.  This model cannot use this ability on itself"

This means that if he has 1 wound left, and you roll a 1, then he takes 1 damage, would normally get removed, but instead of doing so he heals and is back at 1 damage.  However, if he takes 2 damage, then he would take 1, normally get removed, cycle of the storm kicks in, he is back at 1 wound, but there is still a wound allocated to him which then goes on and he dies.

Note, the Lord-Arcanum on Gryph Charger is still a decent idea for a unit to bring.  After all, you get units with a 3+ save, a heal that they can cast on themselves/other stormcast units, they still give you access to the Everblaze Comet, and should you ever need to cast Arcane Bolt, they still give you "Prime Electrids".

However, before you go all in on your Gryph Charger, you might actually want to take a look at the Taurelion now.  10 wounds, 3+ save, still gives you cycle of the storm, but most importantly it is the 1 unit that you can bring in cities of sigmar that has 2 casts BASE, which means that in hallowheart he can cast 3 spells.  In case that wasn't enough though, his points dropped - now he is only 280 points, the exact same as a hurricanum.  His built in spell is kind of poor admittedly, but between prime electrids and the hallowheart spells, and the probability of having a realm spell available more frequently now, he isn't going to be suffering all that much.

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52 minutes ago, ProbablyBalthus19 said:

How would the tauralon get 3 casts base. Isn't that just for non stormcast models?

Nope! Stormcasts gain Hallowheart keyword, making them legible for all the special rules. Tauralon might be actually worth considering.

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