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@flamingwalnut True, but including both the Archmage and Luminark together would be tough unless I drop some artillery, which is kind of the point of this list Not sure if losing 1 ballista is worth an Archmages shield.

I can't think of anything that could screen better at their point cost, plus I have a nice conversion in mind for the Guard anyway. Like I said, definitely more of a fluff list and I don't expect to win anything from it other than an opponents eyes gleaming at all the artillery + magic carts. Thinking on it I don't think there is much I could really do to make it more competitive without losing more of the fluff I want. May just proxy some models and see how it goes.

Edited by Gwendar

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So... the Hurricanum gives a +1 to hit to all ORDER units within 10" to start.  That is huge, and severely increases the lethality of the Stormcast Ballistas.

This has made me completely rework my potential list, what do you guys think?

Celestial Hurricanum with Mage  (The mage is free, why -not- take him?)

Knight-Incantor

Lord-Ordinator

Freeguild General

x10 Freeguild Handgunners

x10 Freeguild Handgunners

x10 Freeguild Handgunners

Celestar Ballista

Celestar Ballista

Celestar Ballista

Celestar Ballista

Steam Tank

Steam Tank

Soulsnare Shackles

 

So correct me if I am wrong... but the Hurricanum deals anywhere between 3 - 18 Mortal Wounds per shooting phase.  It says to roll a dice for each time you attack, and the damage chart says 3 attacks to start.  Each dice is between 1, d3, or d6 Mortal Wounds at 18".  That is amazing 'artillery' though it does not benefit from Grey Water Fastness, it does also give a +1 to hit aura.

So... With the Lord-Ordinator the Ballistas are hitting on 2+ at range, and a 4+ with the rapid shot... but with the Hurricanum the Ballistas hit on 3+ at rapid fire range... that is around 3 hits per ballista... 12 hits... 12d6 Celestar Ballista hits per shooting phase on average.  That kind of fire with Rend -2 can remove units... if I could fine another +1 to hit they could be hitting on 2's.  That seems way better than the Cannons at that point.

Additionally... if the Freeguild Handgunners don't move, and get targeted by their general for HOLD THE LINE! they hit on 2+ and wound on 2+ in units of 10.

That damage output is before any additional shots from the Greywater benefit, and doesn't include any spell damage from the two wizards.  Comet of Casandora is funny, but could backfire badly, so I imagine that wizard would throw Shackles or Arcane Bolt.  Knight-Incantor will use her storm for sure.

Lastly... a question about the Freeguild General... it says occasionally he can carry the war banner... if he is carrying the war banner, does he have no weapons?  Or does he pick a weapon set -and- carry the banner?  Theoretically if he is on foot with a banner he would have no attacks at all?

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10 hours ago, Nevar said:

that is around 3 hits per ballista... 12 hits... 12d6 Celestar Ballista hits per shooting phase on average.  That kind of fire with Rend -2 can remove units...

 

 

that‘s digusting.

 

can you ally units into a Mixed Order list?

Edited by JackStreicher
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3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

 

 

that‘s digusting.

 

can you ally units into a Mixed Order list?

Looking at this list, I could not use this in a GreyWater freecity because the Hurricanum is a Arcana unit.  However, this list is still legal as a mixed Order army.  When you play your Grand Alliance, you can freely use any and all 'Order' or 'Death' or whatever units.

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15 minutes ago, Nevar said:

Looking at this list, I could not use this in a GreyWater freecity because the Hurricanum is a Arcana unit.  However, this list is still legal as a mixed Order army.  When you play your Grand Alliance, you can freely use any and all 'Order' or 'Death' or whatever units.

Yes, but why couldn‘t I play for example Anvilguard and ally an ironweld Arsenal Canon?

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Oh you mean ally into the Free City?

I am pretty sure the Free Cities do not have an 'allies' list like other factions.  The problem is, things like Free Guild, or Wanderers, or Stormcast Eternals, have a list of which 'Order' units can get included into their armies using the 'allies' points.

Free Cities are not a faction in the same way those armies are, they are a set of bonus rules you can use if you use the factions listed as living in that Free City.  Unless I am mistaken, GreyWater does not have an 'allies' list, because the Free Cities are already in essence large allied collection of models.

 

Also, I double checked, GreyWater does allow the Magic School units... so the Hurricanum can be in GreyWater giving all of the artillery and tanks in this list the ability to fire in the Hero Phase on a d6 roll of 6.  So you have odds to fire at least one of the ballistas or Steam Tanks in the Hero Phase as well.  Unfortunately the Hurricanum does not have the Warmachine keyword and can't roll for the Free City bonus.

Edited by Nevar
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14 hours ago, Nevar said:

Comet of Casandora is funny, but could backfire badly, so I imagine that wizard would throw Shackles or Arcane Bolt.

I like the list, largely what I have decided on but I'm doing Guard over Handgunners and throwing in a Luminark. That Luminark shot can be nasty, and it's spell is great vs. hordes.

Anyway, I don't think the Comet really has that much capability to "backfire" since your opponent has to select one of their own units, so either way you will be doing d6 MW's to something of your opponents.

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17 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I like the list, largely what I have decided on but I'm doing Guard over Handgunners and throwing in a Luminark. That Luminark shot can be nasty, and it's spell is great vs. hordes.

Anyway, I don't think the Comet really has that much capability to "backfire" since your opponent has to select one of their own units, so either way you will be doing d6 MW's to something of your opponents.

Mind blown.

I just read that wrong and assumed it was the downside of the spell that the enemy got to choose one of your units and it was a 50/50 if it hit your guys or his guys.  You are right though, you are doing d6 Mortal Wounds to someone on his side of the table... this just makes it better.

Looking at the Luminark I just can't justify the defense aura when I am trying to maximize long range death.  Plus, the Luminark's gun is a singe 6 damage shot hitting on 3+.  A Lord-Ordinator can't even buff it to a 2+ because it does not have the Warmachine key word.

The Hurricanum doesn't even have to roll to hit, and deal Mortal Wounds.  Minimum damage from a Hurricanum is 3 Mortal Wounds, half as much as the Luminark, but requiring no hit or wound, and bypassing the vast majority of defenses.  Obviously the Luminark's 30" range is nice, but there is a concept I learned to master playing the Tau Empire in 40k when it comes to GW shooting armies.  In fluff the Tau call it Mont'Ka, but in general games like this people refer to it as target priority and destruction, and you can maximize your ability to completely remove an enemy unit through unifying your weapon ranges so you can coordinate a kill zone/range.  When you have a lot of disparate ranges, you have to position your forces much more scattered to make sure they can all bring their weapons to bear, or you can focus on one range and plan your strikes for that specific kill zone.

Hurricanum is most lethal around 18".  This is the best lethal range for the Celestar Ballista as well.  Freeguild Handguns are annoyingly 16" but since you will want them strung out as a screen in front, this actually gets them in range in the same turn that the rest of your lethal weaponry comes into most effective range.  Having the Steam Cannons on the tanks, and the long range profile of the Celestars and Longriflemen allows the army to put ranges pressure on the enemy from turn one.

Likewise with spells, the burning gaze on the Luminark is good... but it's max damage is 3d3 Mortal Wounds against large hordes.  That is the normal shooting damage of the Hurricanum.  Comet of Cassendora is also an 18" spell, causing decision to be made when an enemy is considering crossing that 'line in the sand' that brings them into the kill range of everything.  If they send only one unit... it will 100% get hit by the comet.  If they send more it randomizes the comet, but gives the rest of your army more target choices.

I dunno, to me it seems like the Hurricanum is just completely superior for a shooting heavy army.  +1 to hit on artillery and rifles/blades is just so good.  If you are using the 6++ from the Luminark your arty is already having a bad day.

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@Nevar Yeah, thought it was a little odd in you saying you didn't want to use the spell so I assumed you misread it. And while I see your points with the Luminark, I just appreciate it aesthetically. It would probably be better to leave it out in favor of more bodies, and while it isn't an artillery piece, it almost acts like one regardless of it gets buffed or not. Especially if you take its spell into account as well and not just the beam. A 3+ (or 4+ with Look out, sir if you target a Hero) is still pretty good.

You already have disparate ranges with the tanks, handgunners and the ballistas 2 different profiles, so adding a Luminarks 30" shot range doesn't change this. Your ideal range is 16" as you have said, which lets you have everything in range. So really, you're just adding another Steam Tank in with the Luminark, except it gets a nice anti-horde spell, since it has the potential to do 12 MW's against a unit of 20+. Add in the -2 rend Luminark shot and you have a good chance to delete a 10-20 man unit in 1 phase from 1 unit alone. To me, Burning Gaze reads that you double or triple the wounds it inflicts, so it isn't actually 2d3 or 3d3, you roll 1d3, and then double or triple the result. At least, that's how I read it unless there is an faq stating otherwise, which I have yet to find. This seems to be the way everyone uses it.

I'm not making a case to use the Luminark over the Hurricanum for an artillery-based army; It's a no-brainer that the Hurricanum is best for that. I was only making a case that as an inclusion to work alongside the Hurricanum in such an army, it can be pretty great and can potentially help keep your weak frontline around a little longer with its aura. Also, you get another unbind which is great in todays meta, not to mention the Hurricanum's +1 to casting and the Luminarks +1 to unbinding work with each other (and themselves since they're auras).

Edited by Gwendar

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I think people are suggesting the luminarch in addition the hurricanum. For example, if you dropped the archmage, the endless spells and a ballista you could afford one, for example. Still has a 6++ for your team, still has good long-range shooting and plausibly adds some more consistency, since it gets +1/+1 to its casting and dispelling. It would then be hitting on 2+, addressing your concern. Alternatively you could substitute it in for a tank. Mostly, however, I just think it is a lovely model and want excuses to suggest others field.

I also think 'good chance to delete at 20 man unit in 1 turn' is a bit of an exaggeration. 2d3 MW averages 4, and someone probably wounded it quickly twice to get it down to the d6 wound shot profile, which still could miss or whatnot. Maybe averaging more like 6 wounds per turn. 

But its so pretty.....

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@Frowny Exactly, and it essentially does what the archmage already does without a spellcast, granted at a lower range. I hadn't even thought about the Hurricanums +1 to hit aura for the beam; even better as it can allow you to delete the average hero character since it will be hitting on 3's with Look out, Sir in mind.

I wouldn't call it an exaggeration all that much. Best case scenario in mind, it will do 3 MW's to a unit of 20, 1 wound each models which then gets tripled to 9. Hit with the 6 damage shot to bring the total up to 15. Assuming they do not have a CP available to use for IP or some other battleshock ability, then battleshock will most likely take care of the rest. Even if not, you took that unit of 20 down to 5, allowing for something else to do some easy cleanup.

Is it a stretch? Maybe, but even on average it still does decently against the right target in my book. And I can't argue with it's aesthetic obviously making it seem better than it may or may not be.

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3 hours ago, Frowny said:

I think people are suggesting the luminarch in addition the hurricanum. For example, if you dropped the archmage, the endless spells and a ballista you could afford one, for example. Still has a 6++ for your team, still has good long-range shooting and plausibly adds some more consistency, since it gets +1/+1 to its casting and dispelling. It would then be hitting on 2+, addressing your concern. Alternatively you could substitute it in for a tank. Mostly, however, I just think it is a lovely model and want excuses to suggest others field.

I also think 'good chance to delete at 20 man unit in 1 turn' is a bit of an exaggeration. 2d3 MW averages 4, and someone probably wounded it quickly twice to get it down to the d6 wound shot profile, which still could miss or whatnot. Maybe averaging more like 6 wounds per turn. 

But its so pretty.....

Unlike the Knight-Incantor, the Luminark cannot use a void scroll to cancel clutch spells.  Void scroll can win you the game against Nagash for instance.  Auto-unbind his spell portal, and you don't have to worry about getting wiped out by spells on Turn 1.  That gives you a turn of artillery fire to knock the big bad down.

Not to mention dozens of clutch Endless Spells and even random Warscroll spells.  I would pay the price of a Knight-Incantor just for the one use scroll, everything else she does is gravy.

I think the damage output of the Luminark is too situational in comparison to say a Celestar Ballista.  I prefer predictable and reliable to 'hopefully'.  White Mage's spell is only good on large units, and the one shot of the Luminark can get shrugged off by a 4+ Ethereal save from a Nighthaunt.  Even some Stormcasts will have an armor save against it.  Too many dice gates to get through.  Have to hit, have to wound, have to hope they don't make their save.  With the spell you also hope your enemy brings a massive blob. Useless against Beast Claw and Stormcasts for instance.

The huge amount of points less the Luminark costs -is- a big deal, but I can get two Celestars for the price of one Luminark.

Also I really don't like either the Hurricanum or the Luminark model.  I will have to convert a command tank or something to count as my Hurricanum.  Maybe a hellstorm rocket battery fixed to the tank with an observation platform for a wizard or something.

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True, but even with Nagash the spellportal is nothing compared to what it used to be since it only allows 1 spell to be cast through it per turn. Then again, there are no Nagash players in my area so I cannot really testify to how useful that auto-unbind is outside of just looking at it on paper, even taking Hand of Dust into account I wouldn't care for it...Then again I just really dislike Stormcast. (I'm just dressing up my Ordinator and replacing the crew of the Ballistas with kitbashed models).

The damage potential may be situational, sure, but personally I would rather have a bit more damage potential, a 6+ aura save and +1 to unbinds on top of the beam. The spell is just insurance against someone potentially bringing that blob which is still pretty likely to happen in this meta, especially locally where I have Fyreslayers bringing blobs of 30, 20+ units of Witch Aelves, Seraphon Skinks\Undead\etc...Bottom line is tons of things have these Save ++'s now that your ballistas would need to get through regardless. I would rather have even a small answer to a Horde situation than nothing.

I guess looking back, I'm more in favor of the Luminark for what it could do in my area, rather than at some big tournament which I would never bring a list like this to anyway unless I just wanted to mess around. For 140 points more, I would rather max out on the "go big or go home" war-machine\magic-machine aspect than having another standard wizard. No matter what I plan to have 4 Ballistas and 2 Tanks for my list, so I would never consider dropping any of that for a Luminark, I just sacrificed some of my Guard in order to make it work.

Also, the Hurricanum and Luminark have wonderful potential to be kitbashed. I've played against Tom Lyons Luminark before which is essentially a Dwarven Deathstar shown near the end here: 

 

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On 9/30/2018 at 4:35 AM, Nevar said:

 

So... With the Lord-Ordinator the Ballistas are hitting on 2+ at range, and a 4+ with the rapid shot... but with the Hurricanum the Ballistas hit on 3+ at rapid fire range... that is around 3 hits per ballista... 12 hits... 12d6 Celestar Ballista hits per shooting phase on average.  That kind of fire with Rend -2 can remove units... if I could fine another +1 to hit they could be hitting on 2's.  That seems way better than the Cannons at that point.

Knight Azyros? Only a temporary +1 most likely, but fly him up within 10" of something and there's another bonus. And a couple more mortal wounds available from him too.

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7 hours ago, divineauthority said:

Knight Azyros? Only a temporary +1 most likely, but fly him up within 10" of something and there's another bonus. And a couple more mortal wounds available from him too.

Would help with hitting, but I think the list already is really low on bodies, and I wound need to drop a Steam Tank to squeeze him in.  A Steam Tank is a Warmachine, and has 12 wounds and good armor.  They can fight in melee for a round or two but the Azyros would probably not be able to screen as well.  I am not generally a fan of 'throw away' units, and the poor Azyros would be dead almost immediately.

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I think I've finally decided on a list. Definitely going with Longbeards, as I think in minimum units they're just as good\better than 10-20 Guard when you take the shield wall into account. Excited to get to get started with it to see how it performs.

Allegiance: Greywater Fastness
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (380)
- General
Luminark Of Hysh With White Battlemage (240)
Lord-Ordinator (140)

10 x Longbeards (100)
- Great Axes & Shields
10 x Longbeards (100)
- Great Axes & Shields
10 x Longbeards (100)
- Great Axes & Shields

Steam Tank (260)
Steam Tank (260)

Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)

Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000

Edited by Gwendar
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5 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I think I've finally decided on a list. Definitely going with Longbeards, as I think in minimum units they're just as good\better than 10-20 Guard when you take the shield wall into account. Excited to get to get started with it to see how it performs.

Allegiance: Greywater Fastness
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (380)
- General
Luminark Of Hysh With White Battlemage (240)
Lord-Ordinator (140)

10 x Longbeards (100)
- Great Axes & Shields
10 x Longbeards (100)
- Great Axes & Shields
10 x Longbeards (100)
- Great Axes & Shields

Steam Tank (260)
Steam Tank (260)

Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)

Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000

Looks like a fun list. I found myself drawn to Longbeards for my slow-grow Living City army too. The rend and rerollable 4+ are just so nice on a cheap-ish batteline, even if you cant really expect them to output too much damage due to low weight of attacks.

 

Edited by Yoshiya

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33 minutes ago, Yoshiya said:

Looks like a fun list. I found myself drawn to Longbeards for my slow-grow Living City army too. The rend and rerollable 4+ are just so nice on a cheap-ish batteline, even if you cant really expect them to output too much damage due to low weight of attacks.

That's the idea, definitely not expecting to win games but I'm a huge fan of volley firing artillery\tanks so...It had to be done and ballistas are much more efficient for their points than rocket batteries would be, at least on paper. All the strength is in the War Machines, Luminark and Hurricanum, which can hopefully whittle everything down in time.

I was stuck on using kitbashed Freeguild Guard for the longest time until I really looked into the Longbeards. Plus they're Dwarfs, so.

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On Monday, October 08, 2018 at 6:18 PM, Gwendar said:

I think I've finally decided on a list. Definitely going with Longbeards, as I think in minimum units they're just as good\better than 10-20 Guard when you take the shield wall into account. Excited to get to get started with it to see how it performs.

Allegiance: Greywater Fastness
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (380)
- General
Luminark Of Hysh With White Battlemage (240)
Lord-Ordinator (140)

10 x Longbeards (100)
- Great Axes & Shields
10 x Longbeards (100)
- Great Axes & Shields
10 x Longbeards (100)
- Great Axes & Shields

Steam Tank (260)
Steam Tank (260)

Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)

Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000

Beautiful...

Eager to see a battle report from this. May try and mock up something similar.

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1 hour ago, flamingwalnut said:

Beautiful...

Eager to see a battle report from this. May try and mock up something similar.

I'm excited to get one out! Will probably start getting everything bought up in the next month or so...I may try a proxy game if I get impatient and see how it goes.

I went back and forth on what artillery to use, but the Ballistas are undercosted for what they do and they easily allow me to fit in the Hurricanum and Luminark while still maxing out on 4 pieces of artillery. My second choice would've been rocket batteries, but I would have to take out too many important things for arguably worse artillery. Either way, 6 things having a chance to shoot twice per phase can be wonderful.

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Im looking into playing a dispossessed heavy list with a treelord under the living city rules and I have a few questions regarding wyldwoods. Does it cost points to include wyldwoods in my army? How many wyldwoods can I summon with the tree lord over the course of the game? Do I start the match with wyldwoods out on the field like sylvaneth players? Any information people can provide for me on this would be greatly apreciated. Also if you have a FAQ or document that supports the rules for anything related to my questions I would love to see those for reference. Thanks!

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3 hours ago, Clise said:

Im looking into playing a dispossessed heavy list with a treelord under the living city rules and I have a few questions regarding wyldwoods. Does it cost points to include wyldwoods in my army? How many wyldwoods can I summon with the tree lord over the course of the game? Do I start the match with wyldwoods out on the field like sylvaneth players? Any information people can provide for me on this would be greatly apreciated. Also if you have a FAQ or document that supports the rules for anything related to my questions I would love to see those for reference. Thanks!

1) Wyldwoods don't cost any points (they used to but not anymore).

2) You can summon as many as you have hero phases. Ie. You get one chance per hero phase for having a Treelord Ancient alive (only one Treelord Ancient can activate the ability per turn). If you succeed on all your hero phases you can summon each time for a maximum of 5 in a normal game. (I believe this is in the Slyvaneth Designers commentary or FAQ)

3) You do not start with any on the board in a Living City army. The ability to place a Wyldwood on the board is part of the Sylvaneth allegiance abilities and requires you to be playing a Slyvaneth army to use.

 

Hope this helps :) I'm also making a Living City army and play Slyvaneth too so I should be able to answer your questions.

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So I've been tossing around the idea of a 'Grand Alliance: Dwarf' army for a while, and I figured I'd ask here, if anywhere, about which Free City rules work best? 

The idea is that I'd only use models from Dispossessed, Ironweld, Fyreslayers and Kharadron. With a possible addition of Stormcast for magic support. 

The issue therein is that I don't think Fyreslayers are included in many of the free cities, which is a bother. At the end of the day I *could* just drop Fyreslayers entirely, though. Food for thought. 

What do you guys think? 

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8 hours ago, RaritanAnon said:

So I've been tossing around the idea of a 'Grand Alliance: Dwarf' army for a while, and I figured I'd ask here, if anywhere, about which Free City rules work best? 

The idea is that I'd only use models from Dispossessed, Ironweld, Fyreslayers and Kharadron. With a possible addition of Stormcast for magic support. 

The issue therein is that I don't think Fyreslayers are included in many of the free cities, which is a bother. At the end of the day I *could* just drop Fyreslayers entirely, though. Food for thought. 

What do you guys think? 

The idea is sound and would be really cool. I've had a similar thought as I pondered my need for more Dwarf in my life. Sadly, yes, you are kind of in a tough spot for a city that includes everything. Hammerhal is your only bet and...it is so meh. So, you either day whatever just build Hammerhal and play the models you want, or focus on either what I call Tech or Classic. Tech (Tempest's Eye) allows you to build a big air force lots of fire power. Classic (Hallowheart) lets you take just big piles of stubborn stunties. Greywater Fastness is also possible as a pure "Old School Only" dwarf list focused on actual artillery.

My suggestion? Make a list of all the units you REALLY want, in order from most wanted to least wanted. Start building an army list with that list and see if any sub-faction takes more of a focus than others, that should help guide you to a decision.

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