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That's true. I hope the strongest builds come from taking a city and building as intended, and not the cherry picking or 'my executioners are now greatswords because better rules' approach. This is mostly enforced by keyword locked buffs which is fortunate. I can't really see other faction units being useful in my Freeguild, aside from those like Collegiate that were always there.

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I wonder why some version of Lethisian Defenders weren’t included? 

On that same note, why they didn’t try to include one or two new cities from realms that don’t have representation?

as it is right now, every city has to be set in its realm, naturally, but would have liked some smaller thing to allow you to pick a realm an artifact a spell and city/ army attribute.

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Haven't been religiously following this thread, so apologies if I repeat some things that others have said already. I've finally gotten a chance to digest the book as reviewed by GMG, and I am thoroughly impressed. There are definitely some things that I am concerned about from a balance perspective, but overall the book does an excellent job of making basically every city compelling and interesting. I think there are a lot of competitive builds in this book and a huge number of warscrolls that have jumped from being next to useless to being seriously good. I plan to do my typical mathhammer analysis of as much as I can in a future post.

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34 minutes ago, spenson said:

My issue with the Darkshards is that they don't compare very favorably against the shadow warriors. The darkshards are 2 shots 3+/4+/- while the shadow warriors can easily be 1 shot 2+/3+/-1. The darkshards may deal a tiny bit more damage and are slightly cheaper but they can't deapstrike. As you said, the darkshards will require the sorceress CA if you have the first turn and want to shoot.

I would call Darkshards superior in actual line combat; that comes from their mobility being available when ever you have a CP to spend, versus one turn of deep striking. That means that if a situation gets a little dicey, or you need to do a big aggressive power play with them, you've got options. Once a Shadow Warrior drops, they are pretty much hugging cover 24/7 while being stuck at 6" move. That Deepstrike can be super awesome, and really help board control, but in terms of actual mobility after the deepstrike, they sorely lack. And if I want to do some first turn pressure, I think that the Soulscream bridge via Sorceress can be quite effective due to its extended range.

 

Secondly, as for damage, one thing to remember is just how much stuff we have to buff with. With the right combination, like having a Hurricanum nearby and casting the Hallow Heart +1 to wound spell, you can get the same hit values with an extra attack instead of rend. 

I think competition wise, only Irondrakes and Sisters of the Watch can really compete with Darkshards; Irondrakes have a pretty good gun, the torpedo and similiar number of shots, while Sisters of the Watch can put out a decent number of MW. 

My problem with Shadow Warriors is that while they make awesome objective holders/stealers, their innate squishyness and weak CC power kinda makes their deepstrike hard to use. Plus, Darkshards are murder bait for Sorceress, so 10 points a turn for +2 to cast is pretty great.

 

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7 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

I would call Darkshards superior in actual line combat; that comes from their mobility being available when ever you have a CP to spend, versus one turn of deep striking. That means that if a situation gets a little dicey, or you need to do a big aggressive power play with them, you've got options. Once a Shadow Warrior drops, they are pretty much hugging cover 24/7 while being stuck at 6" move. That Deepstrike can be super awesome, and really help board control, but in terms of actual mobility after the deepstrike, they sorely lack. And if I want to do some first turn pressure, I think that the Soulscream bridge via Sorceress can be quite effective due to its extended range.

 

Secondly, as for damage, one thing to remember is just how much stuff we have to buff with. With the right combination, like having a Hurricanum nearby and casting the Hallow Heart +1 to wound spell, you can get the same hit values with an extra attack instead of rend. 

I think competition wise, only Irondrakes and Sisters of the Watch can really compete with Darkshards; Irondrakes have a pretty good gun, the torpedo and similiar number of shots, while Sisters of the Watch can put out a decent number of MW. 

My problem with Shadow Warriors is that while they make awesome objective holders/stealers, their innate squishyness and weak CC power kinda makes their deepstrike hard to use. Plus, Darkshards are murder bait for Sorceress, so 10 points a turn for +2 to cast is pretty great.

 

Hmmmm I think you're right. 

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1 hour ago, spenson said:

I think it's a bit of a shame not to take the 60 points discount for the max size unit of phoenix guards.

Did you choose a city yet? Living City is one of the best in my opinion if your general is an anointed on phoenix. The command trait to give +1 save (and +1 to wound) is awesome and their spell lore is my favorite.  There's nothing like having a frostheart phoenix with -2 to wound and a 2+/4++ save.

Otherwwise I'd probably play Hammerhal. Blood of the Twelve (one the battlemage if he's your general because the anointed already has his CA) or academic prodigy on the anointed and Twinstone give massive buff to your units. The battle traits are also very cool. If you use the anointed CA, your phoenix guards will be 2" / 2+ / 3+ (rerolling) / rend 1 / damage 1. Wow.

I will probably try Living city with Drycha vs Hammerhal with an anointed (general) and a battlemage.

Yea it is hammerhall, trying To get as many Command points without running too many MSU’s so I can just wombo-combo abilities. Anointed on foot and his sorceress to get the command points, 6 attempts to get command points a turn, and two phoenixes to hit hard and fast. Thanks to 1d4chan I think I would go blood of the twelve on the anointed because he’s going to be with as many Phoenix guards he can be with  anyways , and give one of the phoenixes the special swords to hit harder. Then send him in to get objectives and swing away with his new amazing weapon, all the while spending cp’s on buffs and the like to maximize everything.

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12 minutes ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

Wasn't there talk of a section in the book about conversions and things. Haven't seen it in any reviews yet

Sinceit's just ghyran and aqshi, will that be limited to "put leaves on it" and "set it on fire"?

I don't think they'll speak about convering dumped sets to survivors.

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Was there a restriction on stormcast being a general? Wanted to include a lord-ordinator as general of a greywater army

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9 minutes ago, Brodylan said:

Was there a restriction on stormcast being a general? Wanted to include a lord-ordinator as general of a greywater army

Nope, in fact one of the cities encourages it!

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I think a Knight azyros general in tempests eye will also be useful. Most of the other support style heroes are too slow to keep up. Not him! Boosts right to the front! And he as a rr1s to go with the +1 wound.

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6 minutes ago, Frowny said:

I think a Knight azyros general in tempests eye will also be useful. Most of the other support style heroes are too slow to keep up. Not him! Boosts right to the front! And he as a rr1s to go with the +1 wound.

I think people are missing what is good about tempest’s eye. It isn’t great to just mindlessly zoom outriders about cause they come in that battalion and are fast. And if you want a melee alpha army; the living city is much better (deep strike a max size unit of DGK, with some cp they get plus 3 to charge). Tempest’s eye allows for basic footslogging infantry to have a more effective board presence. It increases the threat range for basic shooting attacks by a lot while not exposing your skirmish contingent without a screen

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Right so after writing a few lists, I think ive come up with a decent gunline dwarf army (yes I know, not competitive because of objectives but theres a grudge book thats not been written off yet).  All points have been adjusted with the new book.
Here goes!

 

Allegiance: Greywater Fastness
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Warden King (110)
- General
- Trait: Ghyran Mere Ranger
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Runelord (90)
Runelord (90)

Battleline
20 x Hammerers (280)
20 x Irondrakes (300)
20 x Irondrakes (300)

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
3 x Gyrocopters (180)
- Gun: Steam Gun
3 x Gyrocopters (180)
- Gun: Steam Gun

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 125

 

So the Runelords are there to give each separate Irondrakes unit an extra -1 to their guns, while the Warden King allows them to run and shoot with the general trait, adding much needed movement to the army. Hammerers are there as a mortal wound output and also as counter combat unit. Im sort of tempted to replace them with 30 shield longbeards to buff the Irondrakes even more. The Warden King would probably benefit more from 'Betty's Magnificent Magnifier' for that extra command point on the first turn to help with adding +1 to hit for the Irondrakes when needed.

Gyrocopters get +3" on their steam guns, so I thought this was a no brainer.

The Celestar Ballistas are still way better than the fixed artillery choices from Ironweld Arsenal. Taking 3 of them with the Lord Ordinator gives a lot of good backfield ranged power.

Fluff wise, I intend on using my Organ guns as the Ballistas as they match pretty evenly in the fact they both shoot lots of shots.

 

The main issue im seeing with this list is 1. Command Points are lacking, and 2. Dwarfs are slow. Ive tried to mitigate this as much as possible.

Lemme know what you guys think!

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I think your list is illegal since only 1 in 4 units can be stormcast. I wanted to play something similar but it's too hard to fit the lord ordinator and 3 ballistas.

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2 minutes ago, spenson said:

I think your list is illegal since only 1 in 4 units can be stormcast. I wanted to play something similar but it's too hard to fit the lord ordinator and 3 ballistas.

Oh! I thought it was 4 total could be stormcast! Will change the list up then.

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12 minutes ago, Broken Netcode said:

Oh! I thought it was 4 total could be stormcast! Will change the list up then.

Keep the 6 gyros though!

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3 hours ago, spenson said:

My issue with the Darkshards is that they don't compare very favorably against the shadow warriors. The darkshards are 2 shots 3+/4+/- while the shadow warriors can easily be 1 shot 2+/3+/-1. The darkshards may deal a tiny bit more damage and are slightly cheaper but they can't deapstrike. As you said, the darkshards will require the sorceress CA if you have the first turn and want to shoot.

You can clearly see the "intended" distribution of factions in the composition of the battalions. Hallowheart is collegiate arcane and tempests eye is Free People/KO.

 

I mean, Tempest's eye was swifthawk agents, which is why they lack an identity now. GW deleted it.

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Ok, after a bit of thought and listening to the review videos again, I think I found the first list I want to try out.

image.png.baa3b431a9fcff036b548586017c52c9.png

 

Not sure yet on what spells go where, but there is a LOT of crazy potential with this list. Potentially +8 to cast with all my wizards, each being able to cast 2 spells a piece. It can be insane.

Now, I know the Longbeards are off, it is a fluffy choice and I love that they can grumble a spell off so I can recast it in a better place. If I went to a competitive area, they would, at least, be switched to guard to get 60 more points of Endless Spells. 

It is...surprisingly simple. And only 4 drops (99% positive that the battalion is 3-6 wizards...). No idea how much firepower it will have and if it can really survive, but as far as skew lists go, this one feels pretty right. PEW PEW, MAGIC! 

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17 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

Keep the 6 gyros though!

Oh absolutely! Zhufbar Air Corps ride again!

My current thoughts are in order of most probable:
- A Celestial Hurricanum IF their +1 to hit ability works on Stormcast CoS units. That way I can buff the Celestar Ballistas and have some pretty good mortal wound output

-20 Handgunners (will just use thunderer models) and an extra command point, as they would benefit from the Greywater buffs.

-A General on Griffon, because Karl Franz is still awesome (albeit leading dwarfs) and the statline is pretty good for the price point despite not having any synergy with the allegiance or units.

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8 minutes ago, flamingwalnut said:

Ok, after a bit of thought and listening to the review videos again, I think I found the first list I want to try out.

image.png.baa3b431a9fcff036b548586017c52c9.png

 

Not sure yet on what spells go where, but there is a LOT of crazy potential with this list. Potentially +8 to cast with all my wizards, each being able to cast 2 spells a piece. It can be insane.

Now, I know the Longbeards are off, it is a fluffy choice and I love that they can grumble a spell off so I can recast it in a better place. If I went to a competitive area, they would, at least, be switched to guard to get 60 more points of Endless Spells. 

It is...surprisingly simple. And only 4 drops (99% positive that the battalion is 3-6 wizards...). No idea how much firepower it will have and if it can really survive, but as far as skew lists go, this one feels pretty right. PEW PEW, MAGIC! 

I built a similar list with gotrek in it. Gotrek and wizards. And like 5 endless spells.

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1 hour ago, stratigo said:

I built a similar list with gotrek in it. Gotrek and wizards. And like 5 endless spells.

Gotrek makes everything better.

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So the Greywater Battalion.  Is it worth it? Considering Line of sight is necessary for the rockets now?

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Right, ive checked and the Hurricanum does indeed buff Stormcast units! Hurricanum is a go!

Allegiance: Greywater Fastness
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Warden King (110)
- General
- Trait: Ghoul Mere Ranger
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Runelord (90)
Runelord (90)

Battleline
20 x Hammerers (280) - Retinue
20 x Irondrakes (300)
20 x Irondrakes (300)

Behemoths
Celestial Hurricanum (220)

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
3 x Gyrocopters (180)
- Gun: Steam Gun
3 x Gyrocopters (180)
- Gun: Steam Gun

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124

 

Copied mostly from the last post:

So the Runelords are there to give each separate Irondrakes unit an extra -1 to their guns, while the Warden King allows them to run and shoot with the general trait, adding much needed movement to the army. Hammerers are there as a mortal wound output and also as counter combat unit. Im sort of tempted to replace them with 30 shield longbeards to buff the Irondrakes even more. The Warden King would probably benefit more from 'Betty's Magnificent Magnifier' for that extra command point on the first turn to help with adding +1 to hit for the Irondrakes when needed.

Gyrocopters get +3" on their steam guns, so I thought this was a no brainer.

The Celestar Ballistas are still way better than the fixed artillery choices from Ironweld Arsenal. Taking 2 of them with the Hurricanum gives a lot of good backfield ranged power. The Hurricanum can also pop off Mortal Wounds very reliably which is a big bonus in an army with little MW output.

Fluff wise, I intend on using my Organ guns as the Ballistas as they match pretty evenly in the fact they both shoot lots of shots. Also, I intend to make my own Dwarven Hurricanum using the Arkanaut Frigate as the base, Hurricanum satellite as a sort of gyroscope, and then swapping the levitation orbs for helicopter rotor blades.

 

The main issue im seeing with this list is 1. Command Points are lacking apart from the 1.5 generation a turn, and 2. Dwarfs are slow. Ive tried to mitigate this as much as possible.

Lemme know what you guys think!

 

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MATHHAMMER REVIEW PT 1.: THE SHOOTENING

I've completed my basic number crunching for shooting, and wow is this book's balance tight! I'm going to split things out into different categories and go in depth from there.

A note on the statistics I am using: I use a self made formula called Weighted Damage Rating to compare damage types across rend. It's not perfect but it gives a pretty accurate estimate of the value of different rend types and mortal wounds. Note that it is a measure of efficiency not absolute power: it shows basically the average expected damage (weighted for rend) that a unit will cause per point that you spent on it.

For defense, I use simple defensive efficiency: the expected wounds pre-save wounds it will take to kill a unit per point that the unit cost. I provide two ratings, one vs. rend - and one vs. mortal wounds. Performance for other rend types will fall somewhere in between these two numbers.

In both cases higher numbers are better.

I've used max unit sizes for all calculations.

ARTILLERY

Spoiler

Helblaster Volley Gun offense: .0216/.0251/.0287/.0335 for long range no engineer/long range engineer/point blank no engineer/point blank engineer firing 2 decks. For 3 decks its: .0194/.0291/.0259/.0388. This math assumes that with an engineer you will reroll any double and keep any other result. This may not be quite optimized. 

Helstorm Rockets offense: .0255/.0297 for salvo without/with engineer. Numbers are lower if you don't use salvo fire. 

Celestar Ballista: .0235/.0469 for single/multi shot

Analysis: 

Overall these numbers are quite low at baseline, but they can be buffed quite a bit. A Lord-ordinator would help, and it might be that with the Greywater Fastness battalion, a Lord Ordinator, and a Runelord you can start getting things up to respectable levels for at least a turn. Personally I think there are better choices but I could see it working.

MISSILE INFANTRY

Spoiler

Offense:

Darkshards: .0671 - can benefit from additional +1 to hit/+2 to wound

Crossbows: .0674/.112 without/with freeguild general CA - can benefit from additional +1 to hit

Handgunners: .0611/.0954 without/with freeguild general CA - hit/wound capped

Irondrakes: .0827/.0876/.1026/.1082 non-monster/monster/with runelord buff vs. non-monster/with runelord buff vs. monster. Can benefit from +1 hit and +1 wound.

Shadow Warriors: .0406/.0672 outside/inside cover. Can benefit from +1 to wound (+1 to hit/+2 to wound outside cover)

Sisters of the Watch: .0877/.1096 without/with Nomad Prince CA. Can benefit from +1 wound.

Black Ark Corsairs:  .084. Can benefit from +2 hit and +2 wound

 

Defense:

Darkshards: .15/.1 vs. r- and mw respectively

Crossbows/Handgunners: .12/.1

Irondrakes: .133/.067 vs. melee .2/.067 vs. ranged

Shadow Warriors: .136/.091

Sisters of the Watch: .09375/.0625

Black Ark Corsairs:  .25/.167 vs, melee .333/.167 vs. ranged.

 

Analysis:

I think every one of these units is viable. While some clearly have much more efficient offense than others, the ones that have lower offense have other strengths that give them a role. Specifically, Darkshards enjoy greater mobility and have a bit more room for buffs than the other warscrolls. They don't need to stand still to get full value. Shadow Warriors, on the other hand, get that nice deepstrike.

The other options are all quite close together. For all of those folks upset over the crossbow nerf: it was needed. Crossbows are still the most efficient choice at baseline and they also enjoy excellent range. Their downside is that they can't stand and shoot. Aside from raw efficiency, their major buffer (the Freeguild General) can tag three units for one CP, which makes these a great choice as the backbone of a gunline.

Handgunners are still very good, albeit noticeably less efficient than crossbows. They do get the benefit of stand and shoot, however. They also have a more potent champion than most other units, with the long rifle providing very valuable hero sniping. Handgunners could be great in large numbers as a frontline or screen or good in MSU configuration to get a bunch of long rifles. The fact that the Freeguild General tags three with one CP could go a long way toward making MSU doable. It's worth noting that with just the FG buff, these guys should be at 2+/2+, so they don't benefit from any further buffs to scale them.

Irondrakes are a bit tougher and fall between crossbows and handguns in terms of efficiency. That said they offer nice rend, especially when buffed by a Runelord. If you want rend at range, these guys are a great choice. They don't get stand and shoot, but they sit at 3+/3+ normally and thus can be scaled to be even more efficient with further hit and wound bonuses. If you can get Irondrakes to 2+/2+, they end up much more efficient than even crossbows. That said, you do need a Runelord for every unit and even then the buff will sometimes fail... so it might not be viable to take 90 of them in the way you could with crossbows. Note that they do perform better than either handgunners or crossbows at baseline without any buffs.

Sisters of the Watch are almost as efficient as crossbows with basic buffs, can benefit from an extra +1 to wound, are more efficient without buffs, and can stand and shoot. All around great, but the most defensively inefficient. EDIT: corrected misinformation about the Nomad Prince CP.

Corsairs are perfectly fine efficiency wise, but I don't really see the point of handbows as they are super short range and the melee version of the unit seems more potent.

MISSILE "CAVALRY"

Spoiler

Offense:

Gyrocopter bombs (once per battle): .06

Gyrocopter steam guns: .0074 per model hit (again, I'm assuming the full size three copter unit)

Gyrobomber bombs: .0514

Gyrobomber clattergun: .0253

Outriders: .0443/.0831 without/with general buff

Pistoliers: .0443/.0886 not charging/charging. I didn't factor in the general buff here because it's not realistic to pull off with Pistoliers.

Dark Riders: .0285

Scourgerunner Chariots: .0838

 

Defense:

Gyrocopters: .1333/.067

Gyrobombers: .143/.071

Outriders: .15/.1

Pistoliers: .15/.1

Dark Riders: .222/.111

Scourgerunner Chariots: .18/.12

 

Analysis:

Dark Riders are the only warscroll with really weak shooting efficiency. I was surprised at how good the chariots are. I don't think I'd take Outriders personally, but they are fine if you like them. Pistoliers are a bit more interesting, albeit at very short range. The gyros are both potentially very useful. The Gyrobomber can pick off heroes quite effectively with the bombs and the clattergun adds a bit of extra damage. The copters have a one shot bomb, but their steam guns can really do work against hordes. If you can reach 13 models with each copter, they will be just as efficient as any of the infantry (not counting the bombs either).  

EDIT: Steam Tanks!

Spoiler

Steam Tank Cannon: .0121/.0161/.0202 default/+1hit/+2hit

Steam Gun: .0146/.0194 default/+1hit

Steam Gun (more pressure): .0188/.025 default/+1hit

Defense: .18/.06

The commander version will just be 25% worse on each mark.

Overall, I think these fall flat unfortunately. Even with impact hits and their command ability running their melee profile is also terrible. Combine that with random move and you have a very cool unit that just doesn't measure up.

 

Edited by swarmofseals
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