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I wonder if cities will be restricted in what subfactions they can take, as they are now. Given that battletome is no longer a collection of various separate factions with one rule slapped on top, as firestorm allegiances were, but rather something meant to unify them a bit more... who knows. Maybe every city will now be able to take all human, aelf and disposessed units, but for example battlelines will change from city to city.

If we treat 'Cities of Sigmar', the entire thing, as a new faction replacing several old small ones [basically like gloomspite gits and beasts of chaos did] we can probably expect severe changes in keywords.

It would be a bit weird if all the current faction keywords are kept separate, for instance, because then we'd have conditional buffs and auras working only on a unit or two, making Cities into a possibly least synergy capable faction in the game. And, in practice, not really different from playing mixed order.

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I dont belive they will get rid of the current keywords but more will be added. That way allies for other factions will still be valid.

ie: Eldritch Council is ally to Idoneth.

 

Maybe Gw will add like "Cities of Sigmar, Living City"

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Well, it´s quite tricky as there are plently of possible solutions. I can imagine GW to do both, either to make each City an Alligiance, or to keep City Rules as "Subfaction" of the Main-CoS Alligience like the Stormhosts f.e. are for SCE.

I really hope that GW will use all the cool ideas they´ve presented in current battletomes. From exotic battlelines or additional slots for monsters/warmachines (would love the latter for an Ironweld-Gunline List. 3 Ballistas, 3 Cannons and one Man with a Mustache want to be played) and also a quite modular set of rules that allows us tons of customization: Possibilities are great!

I would really like if GW would not give unique perks to subfaction-Alligiences, but would rather reward a mixed list. If I recall it correctly, Skaven have this kind of stuff where different Alligiences can be somehow utilised in an mixed list.

I am also really curious what the counselor mechanic may look like.

Also there are some potential risks for rather "bad" decisions: A too strict limitation of Factions to Cities could really to the faction some harm. Imagine you have Dispossesed and Aelfs and cannot find a City which supports both.

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3 hours ago, Charleston said:

Also there are some potential risks for rather "bad" decisions: A too strict limitation of Factions to Cities could really to the faction some harm. Imagine you have Dispossesed and Aelfs and cannot find a City which supports both.

The other possible and really inconsiderate bad decision would be removing a unit from a faction and not have any reasonable counts-as options within the same city. For instance, swordmasters disappearing while none of the cities utilising Eldritch Council having, for instance, greatswords, wildwood rangers, white lions or executioners availible, leaving you with no with no option of using your swordmaster models together with your mages and dragons.

 

I do hope for some cross-faction bonuses though, such as freeguild generals' banners boosting bravery of duardin and aelf units too. Some buffs like this would do wonders to make the Cities feel like a legitimate faction and not a compendium of minor races.

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3 hours ago, Thiagoma said:

That way allies for other factions will still be valid.

ie: Eldritch Council is ally to Idoneth.

That's a valid point. However, if I recall correctly, Gitmob are listed as an ally in Gloomspite battletome and yet they disappeared from the game shortly after, so no guarantee this holds any weight for battletome designers.

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3 hours ago, Charleston said:

Also there are some potential risks for rather "bad" decisions: A too strict limitation of Factions to Cities could really to the faction some harm. Imagine you have Dispossesed and Aelfs and cannot find a City which supports both.

I imagine Hammerhal will be the "everyone is welcomed" city as they are right now for all the in book factions.

Edited by kenshin620
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Curious if the cities will be like the hosts (greatfrays, temples etc) or allegiances.  If they are the hosts it could be that the 7 allegiance abilities are ones that belong to the individual factions like in Beasts of Chaos or Gloomspite Gitz. 

 

Also want to know what they mean by your general can take an advisor or retinue. 

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52 minutes ago, dekay said:

I do hope for some cross-faction bonuses though, such as freeguild generals' banners boosting bravery of duardin and aelf units too. Some buffs like this would do wonders to make the Cities feel like a legitimate faction and not a compendium of minor races.

I think we definitely will see some effects based on city keyword and some based on race/subfaction as well. Similar to how the verminlord warbringer cast dreaded death frenzy on any skaventide but their command ability only effects clan verminus, or how nurgle can be all nurgle, maggotkin only, nurgle demon only, nurgle mortal only etc etc.  

47 minutes ago, dekay said:

That's a valid point. However, if I recall correctly, Gitmob are listed as an ally in Gloomspite battletome and yet they disappeared from the game shortly after, so no guarantee this holds any weight for battletome designers.

Agreed no guarantees, but up until now they have kept the minor subfaction keywords for some allegiances. I think FEC can ally deadwalkers and deathmages but not LoN for example.

3 minutes ago, Tankman said:

Also want to know what they mean by your general can take an advisor or retinue. 

It means you can play not one mighty witch hunter, but units of 5! The smiting of the unrighteous will be immense!

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We might see battalions that stick to individual factions.  These could incorporate existing faction allegiance abilities such as the great company for freeguild and introduce new abilities for those like the Phoenix Guard who have had none.

It would be nice to have a militia battleline unit tailored for each city that could incorporate a mix of races in its ranks.  Would be great modelling-wise. 

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24 minutes ago, Dr Ben said:

I think we definitely will see some effects based on city keyword and some based on race/subfaction as well. Similar to how the verminlord warbringer cast dreaded death frenzy on any skaventide but their command ability only effects clan verminus, or how nurgle can be all nurgle, maggotkin only, nurgle demon only, nurgle mortal only etc etc.  

Agreed no guarantees, but up until now they have kept the minor subfaction keywords for some allegiances. I think FEC can ally deadwalkers and deathmages but not LoN for example.

I don't think they have ever allowed the full Legions as allies for Death. Namely since LoN as an actual allegiance doesn't exist and it's pretty redundant to print a single legion (I guess print Grand Host?)

 

21 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

We might see battalions that stick to individual factions. 

Hopefully in terms of keywords they learned their lesson from BoC battalions. That was a 'fun' RAW vs RAI debate.

(also as an example theres the argument that the Blood Knight Battalion cannot be used for the Soulblight Allegiance)

Edited by kenshin620
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I think it's important to split the factions into different roles; mainly being the factions that provide the fighting force and factions that provide support, so Freeguild and Collegiate Arcane. I highly highly doubt we will have synergies between fighting forces, as the cross faction synergy will come from the support forces. Otherwise, we will have a soup problem. I think Beasts of Chaos is our best point of reference on how things will play out.

As for different units fulfilling similar roles; that wouldn't be so much an issue if there is no overlapping faction rules; so Rousing Battlecry on Hammerers or something, unless that unit is 100% self-sufficient. I still expect there to be a clear divide, like Greatsword Kurnoth and Scythe Kurnoth. So let's say Executioners remain similar and are the elite infantry that deal mortal wounds, while Greatswords gain say +1 damage against single wound models (or are just able to go 2+ 2+ still) or something like that, while Wildwood rangers remain the monster busters they are. All have clear uses and won't outdo each other (hopefully). If we had cross fighting force buffs, that's where the elite infantry will blur and we will have problems, like in Nighthaunt. Who cares if Greatswords can go 2+ 2+? My Wildwood rangers can now do that with d3 damage against monsters!

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8 hours ago, Dr Ben said:

I think we definitely will see some effects based on city keyword and some based on race/subfaction as well. Similar to how the verminlord warbringer cast dreaded death frenzy on any skaventide but their command ability only effects clan verminus, or how nurgle can be all nurgle, maggotkin only, nurgle demon only, nurgle mortal only etc etc.  

Agreed no guarantees, but up until now they have kept the minor subfaction keywords for some allegiances. I think FEC can ally deadwalkers and deathmages but not LoN for example.

It means you can play not one mighty witch hunter, but units of 5! The smiting of the unrighteous will be immense!

Sorry for double post but if we gain certain effects based on our advisor, the Witchhunter would become awesome. Models affected by the General's command ability gain +1 damage against wizards and daemons (and death?)? That would be some spicy synergy that we haven't seen before.

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I just did some counting. And let me tell you all, we have a lot of warscrolls. Like, more characters than Stormcast [and, remember, we can *use* stormcast in cities] and twice the number of stormcast units. Either it will be a thickest battletome in game's history or a lot of it must go away., unless it's just 'GA: Order book 2.0' cleverly disguised as a faction

We have around 40 leaders and  50 units. Some of them *really* similar in function. Especially among former high/dark elves. We have basically 2 copies of every unit availible. I wonder how it will be resolved, but, well, honestly, and i write this as an Aelf player, I'm not sure if things like dreadlord/dragonlord, phoenix guard/black guard, drakespawn/lion chariot and so on actually deserve to be separate units if they're within a single faction.

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45 minutes ago, dekay said:

I just did some counting. And let me tell you all, we have a lot of warscrolls. Like, more characters than Stormcast [and, remember, we can *use* stormcast in cities] and twice the number of stormcast units. Either it will be a thickest battletome in game's history or a lot of it must go away., unless it's just 'GA: Order book 2.0' cleverly disguised as a faction

We have around 40 leaders and  50 units. Some of them *really* similar in function. Especially among former high/dark elves. We have basically 2 copies of every unit availible. I wonder how it will be resolved, but, well, honestly, and i write this as an Aelf player, I'm not sure if things like dreadlord/dragonlord, phoenix guard/black guard, drakespawn/lion chariot and so on actually deserve to be separate units if they're within a single faction.

I hipe they stay, i just finished painting my 2 Dragonlords lol.

But i think that since high and dark elfs belong to diferent cities, that they are probablygoing to stay.

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6 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

But i think that since high and dark elfs belong to diferent cities, that they are probablygoing to stay.

That's exactly what I mean, though. Does 'elf on a dragon' from Anvilgrad really need a separate warscroll from 'elf on a dragon' from Hallowheart? Any difference between former dragonlord and dreadlord can as well be done with city allegiance ability, unique comand abilities, mount abilities and artifacts. With city unique batalion ability on top of it. While avoiding having a battletome with nearly 100 warscrolls in it.

Similarily, i can easily imagine, for instance a unit of basically Aelf Knights, with boosts to either speed or mount's attack depending on the city.

Edited by dekay
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8 minutes ago, dekay said:

That's exactly what I mean, though. Does 'elf on a dragon' from Anvilgrad really need a separate warscroll from 'elf on a dragon' from Hallowheart? Any difference between former dragonlord and dreadlord can as well be done with city allegiance ability, unique comand abilities, mount abilities and artifacts. With city unique batalion ability on top of it. While avoiding having a battletome with nearly 100 warscrolls in it.

Similarily, i can easily imagine, for instance a unit of basically Aelf Knights, with boosts to either speed or mount's attack depending on the city.

And yet we've got seperate warscrolls for rank and file hand weapon and shield Stormcast and rank and file hand weapon and shield Stormcast wearing a bathrobe🤷‍♂️

It's not really GWs current style to streamline the amount of warscrolls available, heck in recent books (Slaanesh, Beasts of Chaos), they've got an far as splitting existing units into multiple warscrolls; all an overabundance of warscrolls means is more pages in the book.

I'd expect the only warscrolls to disappear to be those belonging to culled models, and if anything for more warscrolls to be drawn from what's left of the range (riderless Phoenixes and Hurricanums for example). Whether the models culled are due to overlap/redundancy, especially between the three former elf armies remains to be seen. :( 

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I think it is needed because they got different freatures on the Warscroll and assembly options, that is why the Dragonlord is way more expensive. 

That said i see your point.

On non related note let me ppst a pic lf the kids20190724_175956.jpg.6bd5938c436cfdb01c5baeb6b3513873.jpg20190724_180003.jpg.772ec7b05bafd1d9072fdedafcbf152e.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

And yet we've got seperate warscrolls for rank and file hand weapon and shield Stormcast and rank and file hand weapon and shield Stormcast wearing a bathrobe🤷‍♂️

It's not really GWs current style to streamline the amount of warscrolls available, heck in recent books (Slaanesh, Beasts of Chaos), they've got an far as splitting existing units into multiple warscrolls; all an overabundance of warscrolls means is more pages in the book.

I know reducing number of warscrolls is contrary to what GW is doing and i normally wouldn't anticipate them even cinsidering doing so.. however, here we are talking about battle tome consisting almost twice as many units as Stormcast (the faction that gets, as you mentioned, separate warscroll depending on wheather you prefer a hammer or a skirt on your basic soldiers). And if we were to get modern redesign of current scrolls, this number will only grow.

It's the 'more pages' thing that makes me think, actually. Like, where is the limit? Do we really get a tome twice as thick as others? I mean, I won't in any way *complain* if every single one of our units gets a proper redesigned warscroll, I just have a hard time believing we're really getting this.

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1 hour ago, dekay said:

I just did some counting. And let me tell you all, we have a lot of warscrolls. Like, more characters than Stormcast [and, remember, we can *use* stormcast in cities] and twice the number of stormcast units. Either it will be a thickest battletome in game's history or a lot of it must go away., unless it's just 'GA: Order book 2.0' cleverly disguised as a faction

We have around 40 leaders and  50 units. Some of them *really* similar in function. Especially among former high/dark elves. We have basically 2 copies of every unit availible. I wonder how it will be resolved, but, well, honestly, and i write this as an Aelf player, I'm not sure if things like dreadlord/dragonlord, phoenix guard/black guard, drakespawn/lion chariot and so on actually deserve to be separate units if they're within a single faction.

I honest expect them to combine warscrolls as you mentioned and have the city or faction you choose confer a different bonus on the unit... at least I hope so, will allow them to cut down quite a bit on the warscrolls and place the focus of the army in the different cities or battalions

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23 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Yeah, the "battleline if" should be extended for the new allegiances, it would allow for more varied builds. It need not be removed, just extended to include the cities they feature in.

I don't think "Battleline if"will be based on allegiances, but will be tied to your general like this:

Phoenix Guard: Battleline if General has the ANOINTED keyword
Dragon Blades: Battleline if General has the ORDER DRACONIS keyword
Greatswords/Demigryph Knights: Battleline if General has the FREE PEOPLES keyword
etc.

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4 minutes ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

I don't think "Battleline if"will be based on allegiances, but will be tied to your general like this:

Phoenix Guard: Battleline if General has the ANOINTED keyword
Dragon Blades: Battleline if General has the ORDER DRACONIS keyword
Greatswords/Demigryph Knights: Battleline if General has the FREE PEOPLES keyword
etc.

That would be cool.

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1 hour ago, dekay said:

I know reducing number of warscrolls is contrary to what GW is doing and i normally wouldn't anticipate them even cinsidering doing so.. however, here we are talking about battle tome consisting almost twice as many units as Stormcast (the faction that gets, as you mentioned, separate warscroll depending on wheather you prefer a hammer or a skirt on your basic soldiers). And if we were to get modern redesign of current scrolls, this number will only grow.

It's the 'more pages' thing that makes me think, actually. Like, where is the limit? Do we really get a tome twice as thick as others? I mean, I won't in any way *complain* if every single one of our units gets a proper redesigned warscroll, I just have a hard time believing we're really getting this.

Well, we have seen a side view of the tome, it seems thicker than Idoneth (which is 136), but not by that much. It has to serve as the battletome for 15 old factions, and still it spends pages on Stormcast and Kharadron. 150-175 pages would be my current estimate. Say 175, minus 5 for the pages you'd lose anyway at the front and back of a book, so 170.

That's 10 pages per faction if they only talk about factions, now let's say they readjust and halve the amount of factions, but also give some  10 pages to each of the cities (there were 10 before).

80 pages for cities, one with artwork, two with a description leaving 7 for rules. 10 more should at least be reserved for "build your own city".

70 for the newly condensed 7 factions, (Kharadron and Stormcast mentions would be folded in with the cities). I can't make a more positive estimation.

20 pages for warscrolls of units, if the warscrolls can be condensed from the current about 80 to 60, and 5 for warscrolls for battallions (15 batallions), this is generous, with 3 warscrolls per page and no loss. Also without fluff or picture.

We're now at 175 pages, so over the more generous amount considering the thickness of the book.

 

I wonder what Stormcast players would think if they received a 10 page battletome once every three years.

Edited by zilberfrid
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44 minutes ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

I don't think "Battleline if"will be based on allegiances, but will be tied to your general like this:

Phoenix Guard: Battleline if General has the ANOINTED keyword
Dragon Blades: Battleline if General has the ORDER DRACONIS keyword
Greatswords/Demigryph Knights: Battleline if General has the FREE PEOPLES keyword
etc.

This does give you some freedom, and matching the general to the city isn't that much of a bother.

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