AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[AthelLoren]

10 hours ago, Batch said:

So just go my Cogsmith and first batch of Irondrakes in, had this fellow for a while and decided to mess with what scheme I wanted for my Greywater, I think I'll roll with this, bit more regal. Wish it would stop raining so I can prime my Dorf bois up

Looks good! I'm painting my Stormcast in bronze and green, personally. 

[Remus Prime]

There’s a little passage in the book that intrigued me.

https://imgur.com/a/bFZ0iAv

I love the scale and scope of the realms, where imagination is the limit.  In the Hamilcar short story, I think he had some interaction with some sort of serpent or lizard race, too.

How would you guys use Seraphon in lists?  Just “counts as” battlemages I suppose.

I’m certainly going to be converting lots of keyword breaking things, getting gigants, ogors and goblins in a city.

 

[JackStreicher]

On 10/10/2019 at 3:49 PM, SwampHeart said:

Think that misses The Living City which has some potent tools as well. I know the kneejerk was Hallowheart is the best but I don't know how that's holding up (I personally love Hallowheart because I love magic). 

Imo hammerhal is quite powerful as well.

[kuroyume]

I've finally managed to get a few games. Meeting Engagements, as there is a tournament for the format coming soon. 

I've basically been running the HammerhaolLancers battalion split in 3. Overall the list pretty fun and fairly solid. It loses quite badly to FEC (but really, what doesn't) but against less broken armies it does well.

I have found it hard to get into positive n for the CA, as the 12" range and need to be wholly within enemy territory makes it quite tricky

Edited October 13, 2019 by kuroyume

[Furythrow2]

Hey all, I quite like the idea of an army built around a core steam tanks and their hero but I'm not sure what to compliment them with. Outriders for a mobile gunline? Iron breakers for a solid screen? I'd love to here people's thoughts.

[soots]

Did my own efficiency ratings for decent units

Damage = unsaved wounds per100 points (doesnt say if rend or mw, but does include wounds)

Rend0 = (lower better) Relative defensive value against rend 0 (value for each wound per point) (Rend1 and Rend2 with their rend respectively)

Blue = melee ratings. grey is missile ratings.

(a few assumptions made - e.g. typical unit size to get bonuses, typical loadouts etc)

Melee Conclusions: 

• You pay for rend and mw
• Cost for movement is effectively ignored. Dwarfs do not get a discount for mv4 vs elven mv6. Saw this with Skaven. IMO big oversight
• Pistoliers > gryphon knights at nearly everything.  Better defense, better move, better offense.
• Eternal guard (rated at standing still) is possibly the most efficient unit in the game if it does not charge.
• Corsairs with a fleetmaster are at around Plaguemonk output.
• Sequitors are amazing. 
• Melee elites. imo. . id go executioner/blackguard.  The sorcerer character is a near must include, and their ca makes darkling units charger farther than cavalry (basically 14" + D6 with CAs).  Especially with the synergy from the sorc who will be +2/3 to cast you can get a bridge off easier for alpha striking. 
• There are a few alpha striking SC units that i didnt include. They have very poor efficiency from my last review

Missile Conclusions

• Shooting efficiency is similar to melee. This is the first game ive played that does this. Scratch that, first army. I wasnt expecting this. Usually doing ranged damage involves a greater cost. It will  be feasible to not take in any melee at all considering you can shoot in combat and we can msu. Everyones gonna hate us
• Hurricanum is a near must include. Every unit benefits. and it doesnt have the "Wholly" requisite. 2 May even be worthwhile to cover more area and do some crazy character sniping.
• Crossbowmen vs darkshards has been discussed to death.  Corsairs are more efficient, but i dislike the 9" range because thats guaranteed charge range whereas 16/24 isnt. I dont like stand and shoot crossbowmen, let alone sisters/irondrake with shorter range for obvious reasons (maybe in living city with a guaranteed range drop to alpha enemy off table)
•  Ballista is the most efficient -2 shot we have.

 

[TheGreatEnchanter]

Can anyone recommend a decent starter list for an all-dark elf army? Wanting to capture glory of Naggaroth of old. 

[Fundre]

On 10/11/2019 at 6:03 AM, kreossjmw said:

Hey guys! I need some advice on CoS! With the new Cities of Sigmar book, I can finally bring my old Empire models out from storage! I'm want to use Greatswords as a mainstay of my list because I love their model. What do you guys think of them? I heard they do good damage but are expensive. Here is my 2k list.

Leaders
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Trait: Blood of the Twelve
- Artifact: Saint's Blade
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Wings of Fire

Battleline
30x Freeguild Greatswords (420)
30x Freeguild Greatswords (420)
3 x Demigryph Knights (180)
- Lance and Sword
3 x Demigryph Knights (180)
- Lance and Sword
20x Freeguild Handgunners (200)
- Long Rifle
20x Freeguild Handgunners (200)
- Long Rifle
20x Freeguild Handgunners (200)
- Long Rifle

Total: 1990/ 2000
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
City: Hammerhall

The plan is to play defensively and whittle down the enemy with my handgunners. The general will be buffing the Handgunners, making them hit on 2+/2+. The Greatswords will act as my defensive line with the Demigryphs as flankers. I'm thinking changing the Handgunners into Crossbowmen instead due to the range and extra shots. I'm also debating on maxing out the Handgunners by exchanging the Demigryphs. What do you guys think?

That looks really solid. Some speed with the demis, lots of shooting and solid line troops. I would maybe take some crossbows in stead of gunners cause crossbows have better range as you mentioned. keep 20 gunners though as no one will want to charge them...place crossbows behind them

 

[dekay]

3 hours ago, TheGreatEnchanter said:

Can anyone recommend a decent starter list for an all-dark elf army? Wanting to capture glory of Naggaroth of old. 

There's many ways to do this, so it won't be a list per se, just some ideas:

first (and saddest) of all, it'd be in your best interest to avoid drakespawn knights. They might be the most overpriced unit we have. A shame.

Second thing: Sorceresses, Darkshards, Scourgerunners and Dark Riders are your friends. Universally.

Third: Executioners are quite literally 'greatswords but worse'. If you want pure dark elf, they'reprobably best avoided. Black guard are fast and hit hard, recommend those instead.

Fourth: City choice dictates a lot when it comes to recommended units. So, cities that could be fun for Dark Aelf army and why:

-Anvilgard: regarded as the weakest city, it still has some perks. Their battalion consists solely of DE units,  Making it the only city where you can build a low-drop DE army. They make big monsters battleline, opening possibilites for some fun builds, PLUS they get unique upgrades for hydra, kharybdiss and dragon. Their battalion makes already good scourgerunners even better against monsters. Sorceress, with her casting bonus, is great for casting a spell removing enemy's armour save entirely. However. Anvilgard battalion relies on corsairs and fleetmasters which are, at best, a cheap chaff unit and can't be easily buffed.

-Living City: solely for the fact that, using their deploy-shoot-move-charge skill they can install a dragon right into the opponents face, as long as the dreadlord has a crossbow. The same technique can also work with Dark Riders, that are reliable, very cheap in large units and easily delivered to the enemy.

-Tempest's Eye: their speed and shooting bonuses make buffed darkshards a dangerous unit with great threat range. Dark Riders are even faster than usual, as are dragons and chariots. In *theory* it's the only city where I would even consider drakespawn, due to increased 1st turn survivability, greater chance of 1st turn charge [speed buff and access to the charge re-roll], and +1 Attack spell. Still wouldn't really recommend it, but it might be worth a try.

-Hallowheart: Sorceresses are great. Hallowheart boosts wizards. Sorceress on dragon can't possibly kill herself with magical overload and is easily healable. Numerous buff that darkling units in particular can enjoy. You won't make any friends, though - Group of hallowheart sorceresses make your magic game utterly one sided.

Bonus fifth: Shadow Warriors, while not technically old DE, now share a subfaction with Asassins and Dark Riders. And they're great and can operate without any support. Worth considering in any city.

Bonus sixth: Celestial Hurricanum is one of the best things cities have, If you're feeling creative, go and convert one from Cauldron of Blood to fit DE theme. Not taking one is putting yourself at disadvantage, thing is just that useful.

[Gwendar]

@soots That breakdown has really helped me in theorycrafting a non LC alpha strike list. Wonder if it has legs competitively...

Spoiler

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Freeguild General on Griffon (320)
- General
- Shield & Runesword
- Trait: Swift as the Wind
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory (Tempest's Eye Wizard)
Sorceress (90)
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Celestial Visions (Tempest's Eye Wizard)
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory (Tempest's Eye Wizard)
- Mortal Realm: Ghur

Battleline
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)
40 x Darkshards (400)

Units
30 x Executioners (330)

Battalions
Aetherguard Windrunners (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 134
 

T1 with 3-5 CP. Give Darkshards and Executioner's the Sorceress CA and auto run them if needed/have CP to spare. Looking at 32" threat range for the Darkshards and a +3 charge for the Executioners if the Battlemage spell goes off. The Hurricanum should be able to keep up with either unit for the +1 hit and can give a charge rr if needed. Pistoliers/Griffon smash screens if needed... 6 drops, but can easily wait out a t2 if needed. Alternatives could be to drop the CP for a Scourgerunner for a screen, but not sure that'll be worth it when this is CP heavy.

[The Cranky Dwarf]

OK any thoughts on this as a casual/ low competitive list?

 

My idea is to divide my force into 3 main groups, calvary led by the general, shooting led by free guild general, and foot troops led by the warden king.

Edited October 14, 2019 by The Cranky Dwarf
added tactics

[Furythrow2]

@Gwendar a couple of things that jump out at me:

As other people have pointed out, executioners are the weakest of the great weapon troops as their MWs stop their attack sequence. Maybe black guard would be better? People speak quite highly of them.

That big unit of darkshards only has 16" range iirc. Do you think the back ranks will be able to get in range while the unit keeps out of effective charge range? Obviously making smaller units helps but then you need more CPs to get everyone running.

Just my thoughts.

[Gwendar]

49 minutes ago, Furythrow2 said:

@Gwendar a couple of things that jump out at me:

As other people have pointed out, executioners are the weakest of the great weapon troops as their MWs stop their attack sequence. Maybe black guard would be better? People speak quite highly of them.

That big unit of darkshards only has 16" range iirc. Do you think the back ranks will be able to get in range while the unit keeps out of effective charge range? Obviously making smaller units helps but then you need more CPs to get everyone running.

Just my thoughts.

Simple math suggests 30 Executioner's are doing more than 20 Black Guard. If I could fit in 30 then absolutely... Damage isn't that far off between them honestly, though you're more likely to get in all attacks from the Black Guard unit with the reach.

The point here is to screen the Darkshards with Pistoliers if needed, otherwise they will delete whatever threat is nearest to them. Obviously certain battleplans deployments can make this difficult, but that's why we premeasure and position accordingly 😉

Edited October 14, 2019 by Gwendar

[Furythrow2]

@Gwendar I hadn't done the maths but yeah ideal circumstances against 4+ they're nearly identical. 

When you say screen with pistoliers is that with all 40 darkshards in range? Do you then rely on the retreat and shoot from the battalion in the following turn?

I'm fairly new to AoS so I'm interested to learn a bit more.

[Gwendar]

@Furythrow2 Depends on the damage done which is why understanding average damage against particular units is necessary. If I throw away 5 Pistoliers by charging into something to make sure the Darkshards kill something then I've only lost 100 points. If they live to do the same thing to another unit then great.. otherwise yeah, they literally just sit longways to form a charge screen.

Basically, the Pistoliers don't need to charge, you just put them in front (which they will do with their movement in this batallion and city) of the Darkshards to soak any scary units charging them. They can also clear chaff screens if needed, making room for Executioner's.

[dekay]

2 hours ago, Furythrow2 said:

That big unit of darkshards only has 16" range iirc. Do you think the back ranks will be able to get in range while the unit keeps out of effective charge range?

It's impossible to keep them from charge range anyway - 16 is something any reasonably mobile unit can do with no stress (our very own *infantry* can go up to 30, and that's before we even take magic into account :D). Hell, even 24 range shooters require a screen if you want them safe, because determined enemy will reach them in one turn. So yeah, as @Gwendar says - it's a matter of screening. And just deleting potential chargers, which Tempest's Eye darkshards can do (it's a shame there's no Hawk Eyed in this list, though, but given the general choice, current trait makes sense)

[Gwendar]

55 minutes ago, dekay said:

it's a shame there's no Hawk Eyed in this list, though, but given the general choice, current trait makes sense

Thought about it, but I imagine he will up there fighting another monster with his 2+, 4+ MW save T1 and fighting first would be beneficial, especially since you always fight first. Seems we didn't learn our lesson from Gristlegore... granted, a Griffon isn't quite on the same level.

I have a solid shooting threat, chaff clearing\screens, and 2 solid melee threats here. Trying to tick as many boxes as I can and I don't think sacrificing that AFF to squeeze a bit more damage out of the Darkshards is worth it.

[dekay]

8 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Thought about it, but I imagine he will up there fighting another monster with his 2+, 4+ MW save T1 and fighting first would be beneficial, especially since you always fight first. Seems we didn't learn our lesson from Gristlegore... granted, a Griffon isn't quite on the same level.

I have a solid shooting threat, chaff clearing\screens, and 2 solid melee threats here. Trying to tick as many boxes as I can and I don't think sacrificing that AFF to squeeze a bit more damage out of the Darkshards is worth it.

Exactly, it makes sense. A question, though, if you're taking aetherguard, why sword and not lance on the general? If my math isn't wrong (and, admittedly, it might be ; )), ability to retreat/charge every turn makes the lance more killy against armoured targets, and that extra inch of range can be useful when fighting improperly screened heroes.

[Gwendar]

36 minutes ago, dekay said:

Exactly, it makes sense. A question, though, if you're taking aetherguard, why sword and not lance on the general? If my math isn't wrong (and, admittedly, it might be ; )), ability to retreat/charge every turn makes the lance more killy against armoured targets, and that extra inch of range can be useful when fighting improperly screened heroes.

Actually, I believe the damage is identical with no buffs (which it won't be getting here) so the Sword ends up being more consistent throughout with that +1 attack, especially if you can't\don't want to retreat and charge. A lot of the damage is coming from the mount attacks anyway.

[Arathorn185]

Straight question, do you think a Cities List really needs an infantry block to hold the line or can make due with much shooting?

[Edoval]

Hi,

French player here, sorry i don't speak English well.

I want to build a city of sigmar army but i am afraid that the army is just a one shot with nothing after. (no new model, no battletome in the next edition, etc...)

Do you think it's safe to start this army from nothing or do you not recommand to start this army ?

[Verengard]

13 minutes ago, Edoval said:

Hi,

French player here, sorry i don't speak English well.

I want to build a city of sigmar army but i am afraid that the army is just a one shot with nothing after. (no new model, no battletome in the next edition, etc...)

Do you think it's safe to start this army from nothing or do you not recommand to start this army ?

If you can't decide between CoS and some other army I would take something else - more future proof.

But if you realy like the CoS then go for it.

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Edoval said:

Hi,

French player here, sorry i don't speak English well.

I want to build a city of sigmar army but i am afraid that the army is just a one shot with nothing after. (no new model, no battletome in the next edition, etc...)

Do you think it's safe to start this army from nothing or do you not recommand to start this army ?

Within GW, CoS is possibly not safe, but if other systems are played where you live, CoS is the safest. It could work for Malifeax, 9thage, saga, frostheart etc, which other armies can not.

[Charlo]

I can't see them getting rid of CoS anytime soon. That would create a LOT of bad blood in the community.

[Forrix]

3 hours ago, Charlo said:

I can't see them getting rid of CoS anytime soon. That would create a LOT of bad blood in the community.

Yeah, I really think the CoS paranoia is a little out of hand. I would say everything in it is safe for the forseeable future. Down the road, who knows? I think there is a good chance for future battletomes to break down by city (though we have been seeing a trend towards bigger battletomes lately)  or to break out by faction (Like Battletome: Wanderers). The time to remove models they didn't want to support in CoS would have been before it released and we certainly saw them do that. The silver lining to such a big cull is that it gives even less reason to do one after the battletome releases.