AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[ProbablyBalthus19]

1 minute ago, dekay said:

Nope! Stormcasts gain Hallowheart keyword, making them legible for all the special rules. Tauralon might be actually worth considering.

I agree. I might work him in with my hurricanum once I can actually muster even a 1k force. Currently I have a hurricanum, some ironbreakers, some longbeards and some wizards lol.

 

 

[Mace108]

I played my first cities of sigmar game last night. I took the hallowheart list below. I found it difficult to go for all the objectives at once. I could only really contest 2 objects and the game had 3 per side. I did table my opponent but they won on objectives. Something I am thinking about is how I play the objectives with cities. Anyone got advice? 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Hallowheart
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Battlemage (90)
- General
- Command Trait: Warden of the Flame
- Lore of Whitefire: Warding Brand
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Ignite Weapons 
- Mortal Realm: Hysh (-1 to hit a friendly target)
Battlemage (90)
- Lore of Whitefire: Warding Brand
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Ignite Weapons
- Mortal Realm: Ghur (+2 to run and charge on a friendly target)
Freeguild General (100)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Whitefire: Sear Wounds
- Hallowheart 2nd Spell: Roaming Wildfire

Battleline
40 x Flagellants (280)
Freeguild Crossbowmen, proxied with Peasant Bowmen (300)
30 x Freeguild Crossbowmen
30 x Freeguild Handgunners (300)

Units
20 x Phoenix Guard (320)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (100)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 156

[swarmofseals]

@Mace108 what battleplan was it?

[Mace108]

Forcing the hand GHB2020

[Deadkitten]

Thinking about this Hammerhall list

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Hammerhal
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
Celestant-Prime (300)
Freeguild General (100)
Freeguild General (100)
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
Scourgerunner Chariot (80)
Scourgerunner Chariot (80)
30 x Freeguild Greatswords (360)
30 x Freeguild Greatswords (360)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124
 

EDIT: I think the Chariots are better than more guard here.  Maybe only 1?

Edited July 27, 2020 by Deadkitten

[Deadkitten]

Thinking about this Hammerhall list

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Hammerhal
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
Celestant-Prime (300)
Freeguild General (100)
Freeguild General (100)
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
30 x Freeguild Greatswords (360)
30 x Freeguild Greatswords (360)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124

Maybe 2 Scourgerunner Chariots would be better than the Guard?

[Frowny]

Has anyone tried a mass pistoleer or an outrider list? They math out pretty solidly I think. Possibly in tempest eye for that turn 1 or maybe living call for the move after shooting. 

Thinking of a fun way to use some Brettonians or maybe mechanical horses from the admech range.

[dekay]

23 minutes ago, Frowny said:

Has anyone tried a mass pistoleer or an outrider list? They math out pretty solidly I think. Possibly in tempest eye for that turn 1 or maybe living call for the move after shooting. 

Thinking of a fun way to use some Brettonians or maybe mechanical horses from the admech range.

In Tempest's Eye it can be very good, and it's one of very few viable low-drop lists in Cities. You can reasonably put 80% of your army into a single battalion. You have your general/big monster in the form of griffon, pistoliers are kinda-functionally-melee units, outriders do shooting and gunhaulers provide even more mobility and firepower.

All you need for this to work is some magic. However! One very important thing when it comes to 1st turn and pistoliers:

To work as intended, pistoliers must shoot, charge and then shoot again. That means they can't run this turn, because while TE allows shooting after running, you can't charge after that. This drastically lowers their effective alpha strike range. Another thing,, pistols are range 9. Meaning that despite wide range of charge move increases we have access to (you can pull off +6 if you really want to), pistoliers effective charge range is 'less than 9'.

What does it mean in practice? Well, a problem arises. Because most battleplans place you 'more than 24' from your nearest target. You have 12 move, +3 in your first turn. If you subtract 15 from 'more than 24' you are, annoyingly, 'more than 9' from the target, and that's not good enough. Yeah, you can run after that, giving you, with right budd, extra 9 inches of movement but you won't charge after that. You can forego shooting phase and charge even 2d6+6, rerolling failures, but then, you will also only shoot once.

So, what you can do with that? Well.

1: Use chronomantic cogs. +2 inches of movement and your pistoliers firepower effectively doubles. However, if you hinge your entire plan on this succeeding, terrible things happen if you fail. (Best way to cast it: either a hurricanum (+1 to cast) which you will find extremely useful anyway, outriders love it, or a sorceress with 10 men sacrificial unit (+2 to cast). Both can, obviously, just roll badly so I hope you're a betting man.)

2: You can likely control who goes first. So you can let enemy come closer, survive their initial shooting and whatnot with your extra saves and such, and then easily reach them turn 1. Maybe even get a double turn. But it hinges on your enemy actually coming closer. Will they make a push for objective? Or do they know you need them to move forward so they simply wont? Be prepared for an instance where all you will achieve with those pistoliers in the 1st turn is some impressive area denial. Which is also a good thing as well, you have outriders and gunhaulers to shoot those guys while they're keeping distance while pistoliers grab objectives.

3: Good opponent will know that pistoliers won't hit him with double shots 1st turn. And may count on you knowing that as well, planning for you to go second. Guess what, you can always go first, move forward, soften his screens with gunhaulers and outriders, charge anyway, buff yourself with general's command and be quite deadly even with just a single salvo and melee attacks.

Things pistolier/outrider based lists like:

Hurricanum. Every single thing you use gets much better with +1 to hit.

Knight Azyros. Great general material, actually. Can provide hawk eyed AND re-rolls of 1 to hit, while simultaneously benefiting from his pistolier honored retinue for not getting himself killed, all that while keeping up with your cavalry. And it allows you to use the griffon as a suicide unit when necessary.

Wildform. You want pistoliers to make their charge, +2 bonus is great.

Lifeswarm. You generally don't have the numbers infantry based list would have, so healing is always good. Every man counts.

Hawk Eyed. Other traits might be good, but when basically every unit in your army shoots, boosting shooting is what you do.

I wholly advise trying such a list, it's very fun and it's everything your opponents expect Cities NOT to be. It's fast, elite, hard hitting and aggressive, with potentially very low drop count giving you a huge chance for controlling the early game. And you won't be bored, everything wants to move a lot. If you get stuck in combat, you just retreat and shoot/re-charge. Is there a support character hidden somewhere? Gunhaulers. If there's an objective unclaimed? You just run up outriders there or high-fly a gunhauler if it's far enough.

[swarmofseals]

@dekay @Frowny IIRC a pistolier based list placed 4-1 at a major last year at bare minimum, so yeah it's a viable build for sure (as dekay explained).

The math on pistoliers is quite good. They are fast and pretty offensively efficient if they shoot twice. They also basically break sequence because most of their damage comes from their two shooting volleys, so you're not subject to the activation wars quite as much.

I like pistoliers in some of my Living City builds because they are very mobile and can clear lightly held objectives quite nicely. One thing to think about is how you equip the champion. I think in most cases you will just keep a brace of pistols, but in Living City an argument can be made for giving the champion a repeater handgun as the increased range will dramatically improve your ability to double move with the unit even when not close to the enemy. This question is something I hope to answer with a more testing.

Outriders are pretty poor, but their damage does actually become quite solid when taking buffs from a Freeguild General. That does mean staying stationary, however. They can do mediocre damage while on the move or quite solid damage while sitting still, so all in all a flexible unit.

[dekay]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

IIRC a pistolier based list placed 4-1 at a major last year at bare minimum, so yeah it's a viable build for sure

Do you recall what tournament was it and/or how did the list look?

[swarmofseals]

13 minutes ago, dekay said:

Do you recall what tournament was it and/or how did the list look?

I don't remember unfortunately. I just remember the vast majority of the list if not the entire list was a general on griffon and a ton of pistoliers.

[Maturin]

How about using a Bridge to get at 9" from tour opponents ? 

 

 

[dekay]

1 hour ago, Maturin said:

How about using a Bridge to get at 9" from tour opponents ? 

Bridge is 'more than 9' as well. For the same reason pistoliers can't be used for living city infiltrate->shoot->move thing, which is a shame.

[Dankboss]

9 hours ago, Deadkitten said:

Thinking about this Hammerhall list

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Hammerhal
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
Celestant-Prime (300)
Freeguild General (100)
Freeguild General (100)
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
30 x Freeguild Greatswords (360)
30 x Freeguild Greatswords (360)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124

Maybe 2 Scourgerunner Chariots would be better than the Guard?

I think 2 Generals are too many; sure you'll be able to get the Greatswords with +1 to hit more often, but that's really it. I find the game moves too fast for Hold the Line normally, yet alone 6 uses of it. I would drop 1 General and 1 unit of guard for 20 Handgunners/ Crossbows. If your Stardrake takes Twinstone then he can grant the +1 to hit for the Greatswords anyway; I do this with a Luminark.

[Maturin]

11 hours ago, dekay said:

Bridge is 'more than 9' as well. For the same reason pistoliers can't be used for living city infiltrate->shoot->move thing, which is a shame.

So we're back to no shooting, charge, shooting, melee, which is less useful. How about an Anvil of Apotheosis hero to go with them. A mage giving them +1 save would boost them to 3+, which could make them survive to the next turn.

I wanted to do such a list but the 5+ save and the T1 non shooting ability in the shooting phase put me off. I already got 15 outriders...
 

[dekay]

13 minutes ago, Maturin said:

I wanted to do such a list but the 5+ save and the T1 non shooting ability in the shooting phase put me off. I already got 15 outriders...

Outriders provide T1 shooting you need. And in any objective game, giving your opponent the first turn is actually great because they have a really terrible choice between not scoring anything in their first turn, or getting all the pistoliers to the face in yours. And if you're facing something that can reasonalby pull off the 1st turn charge, you can go first and charge them instead. Not having double shots but having all the oter buffs in place is still better for you than having their charge-reliant army charged is for them. Especially that pistolier salvo ignores the activation order altogether so whatever you're fighting, it won't have their full numbers AND you have your saves boosted.

I found the tournament mentioned earlier by the way, It was Sheffield Slaughter 2020, some of the TE cavalry list games are recorded and give quite a nice insight how it plays.

Here's the list:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar- City: Tempest's Eye

LeadersCelestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)

- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory

Freeguild General on Griffon (320)

- General- Shield & Lance- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed- Artefact: Patrician's Helm
Battleline

10 x Freeguild Outriders (200)

5 x Freeguild Outriders (100)

15 x Freeguild Pistoliers (300)

10 x Freeguild Pistoliers (200)

10 x Freeguild Pistoliers (200)

10 x Freeguild Pistoliers (200)

Battalions

Aetherguard Windrunners (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs

Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1970 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 144

And here you can see them completely rolling a Nagash Petrifex list:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dfli2x5Acs

[Maturin]

Cheers for the list and link. What are those 4 plastic circles on their gaming tables btw?

[Myrdin]

2 hours ago, Maturin said:

Cheers for the list and link. What are those 4 plastic circles on their gaming tables btw?

Thanks for sharing the video. Watched the Table 1 TE vs OB fight, and I think I should build another 10 I have waiting in the box for sure now

[Maturin]

7 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Thanks for sharing the video. Watched the Table 1 TE vs OB fight, and I think I should build another 10 I have waiting in the box for sure now

I didn't find thé vidéo. Dekay did :). Build Rhode pistolets!

[Frowny]

It does look fun. I'm surprised he doesn't have a general in there. At least for the outriders but sometimes the pistoliers might be close enough to use it too.

Is there any value in something besides tempest eye for pistoliers? 

Also I'm so sad that the battalions are city locked. It might be interesting to try pistoliers in living city or a tempest eye whitefire retinue or something. I keep wishing the book was more cross compatible

[swarmofseals]

17 hours ago, Frowny said:

It does look fun. I'm surprised he doesn't have a general in there. At least for the outriders but sometimes the pistoliers might be close enough to use it too.

Is there any value in something besides tempest eye for pistoliers? 

Also I'm so sad that the battalions are city locked. It might be interesting to try pistoliers in living city or a tempest eye whitefire retinue or something. I keep wishing the book was more cross compatible

He does have a general (it's required for the battalion). Or do you mean on foot? A general on foot is likely not worth it as it inflates the dropcount by 1 and will rarely be useful for pistoliers as the buff disappears as soon as they move, and they will basically always be moving.

Pistoliers are a solid warscroll over all. When they double shoot they are quite efficient and break sequence for most of their damage. They are fast and not that inefficient on defense. I definitely think they deserve a look in Living City lists, although not as a deepstrike unit.

[swarmofseals]

I posted this in the LC thread as well, but I'm curious if any of you have tried out allied Morsarr Guard in a serious list. They are more efficient than any of our fast melee units even without the benefit of any allegiance abilities and we don't really have any other flying combat units (at least aside from heroes)

[Popisdead]

So unless I'm mistaken, after hearing on the Honest WArgamer the talk about the latest GHB FAQ that if you lose your BL requirement you lose BL to score objectives.  Hurts armies like Wanderers who don't take 3 natural BL units and instead push for like spamming SotW.  If you lose the Nomad Prince those SotW can no longer score objectives.  

At least I think that's the gist of it...

[Spears]

10 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

So unless I'm mistaken, after hearing on the Honest WArgamer the talk about the latest GHB FAQ that if you lose your BL requirement you lose BL to score objectives.  Hurts armies like Wanderers who don't take 3 natural BL units and instead push for like spamming SotW.  If you lose the Nomad Prince those SotW can no longer score objectives.  

At least I think that's the gist of it...

No that's the opposite of the faq. You don't lose your battleline status if your unit was battleline when you created your army.

However summoned units don't get battleline status.

[Popisdead]

On 8/5/2020 at 9:30 AM, Spears said:

No that's the opposite of the faq. You don't lose your battleline status if your unit was battleline when you created your army.

However summoned units don't get battleline status.

Oh well thanks kindly.  That was confusing to me for sure