AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[tripchimeras]

5 hours ago, soots said:

I still dont rate Phoenix guard efficiency wise. Sequitors are tougher most of the time. and output considerably more. 16pts is a killer.

I agree with restrictive roll of Eternal guard.  The big bonus to them is they get their bonus every turn except for the turn they charge. So they are great at securing objectives or anvilling infront of a gunline. This is important to us because our shooting is an anomoly and is far more efficient than our melee. I definitely wouldnt take them as our only elite, but they are one of the best units in the game at what they do

Blackguard vs executioners is arguable. I agree blackguard are indeed better. But at 30x Blackguard are still 14pts and executioners become 11pts.  The only difference to me is rend vs mortal wounds.. The melee advantage of blackguard is easily offset by the point cost imo.  You can get an extra 20x 3/4 attacks and bodies with a crossbow unit you can buy with the savings.

From what I can tell, a Sequitors unit is never tougher...  They are identical toughness against no rend, everything else a phoenix guard unit has the better save.  And phoenix guard are getting double the models for 30 points more and on smaller base sizes (I think? I just assume all stormcast are 32mm).  You may be talking about 2 wounds when you are talking about their toughness, but less models with the same # of wounds is a weakness most of the time, especially when talking infantry, and would only make them tougher if their wounds equaled more then the PG at their relative prices, when instead their wound counts are identical, particularly since PG are going to be ignoring Battle shock most of the time...  Their damage output is worse as well, all for only a 30pt discount...  I just don't see the comparison here.  PG feel like the better play most of the time, army composition obviously matters here so I will concede there may be occasions those saved points are meaningful, but I am not sure the losses you take switching are worth it most of the time...

I could be missing something or mathing bad though, totally possible.

EDIT Yep I'm forgetting Castellant…  I see where you are coming from now.  But that changes the cost breakdown I think, because now you are adding a 120pt character who mostly exists to buff the sequitors, vs the PG who can operate almost completely independently of their support character at near optimal efficiency, and that character (assuming they are phoenix mounted) are independently strong and desirable from the PG.  This def gets into list creation preferences, but In essence the Sequitor are more expensive then the PG (depending on how you want to argue whether the castellant should basically be baked into their cost) and still are really only marginally stronger defensively, still significantly worse offensively, and Fd vs mortals etc.

Edited October 25, 2019 by tripchimeras

[soots]

1 hour ago, tripchimeras said:

From what I can tell, a Sequitors unit is never tougher...  They are identical toughness against no rend, everything else a phoenix guard unit has the better save.  And phoenix guard are getting double the models for 30 points more and on smaller base sizes (I think? I just assume all stormcast are 32mm).  You may be talking about 2 wounds when you are talking about their toughness, but less models with the same # of wounds is a weakness most of the time, especially when talking infantry, and would only make them tougher if their wounds equaled more then the PG at their relative prices, when instead their wound counts are identical, particularly since PG are going to be ignoring Battle shock most of the time...  Their damage output is worse as well, all for only a 30pt discount...  I just don't see the comparison here.  PG feel like the better play most of the time, army composition obviously matters here so I will concede there may be occasions those saved points are meaningful, but I am not sure the losses you take switching are worth it most of the time...

I could be missing something or mathing bad though, totally possible.

EDIT Yep I'm forgetting Castellant…  

Higher wounds. I would argue are better for battleshock since you only get -1 for every 2 wounds (though you lose 2 wounds per fail, but at those levels you are either IP or removing your unit anyways). Less susceptible to warpifre throwers and other "1 per model in range" abilities.  also smaller footprint has pros and cons. smaller = more in b2b to get all attacks. harder to get enemy models in range to attack.

Sequitors get reroll save as a built in ability. no need for castellant.  They are 25% more tougher against rend 0, and slightly tougher than phoenix guard at -1 rend.  (per 100 pts) Phoenix guard become tougher at rend -2 and higher -though we are looking at the big bad unit killers at that point so its moot. All this while having the ability to switch to reroll attacks to have the output of a greatsword unit (~55% more damage than phoenix guard), even in defensive mode, they are outputting about 15-20% more damage than phoenix guard (per 100pts).

Phoenix guard however have better move, dont need to take up an sc slot.

[XReN]

2 hours ago, soots said:

Higher wounds. I would argue are better for battleshock since you only get -1 for every 2 wounds (though you lose 2 wounds per fail, but at those levels you are either IP or removing your unit anyways). Less susceptible to warpifre throwers and other "1 per model in range" abilities.  also smaller footprint has pros and cons. smaller = more in b2b to get all attacks. harder to get enemy models in range to attack.

Sequitors get reroll save as a built in ability. no need for castellant.  They are 25% more tougher against rend 0, and slightly tougher than phoenix guard at -1 rend.  (per 100 pts) Phoenix guard become tougher at rend -2 and higher -though we are looking at the big bad unit killers at that point so its moot. All this while having the ability to switch to reroll attacks to have the output of a greatsword unit (~55% more damage than phoenix guard), even in defensive mode, they are outputting about 15-20% more damage than phoenix guard (per 100pts).

Phoenix guard however have better move, dont need to take up an sc slot.

There is a lot that I dissagree with:

The battleshock is irrelevant because you should have Anoited near the PG so they won't care.

Sequitors in defence mode won't do more damage than PG, it's also way harder to make them all fight than with PG because of enourmous 40mm bases and only 1" reach. They also do 1/3 less damage in offence mode against 4+ save than greatswords so that does not compare, whille also doing only about 1/4 more damage in offence mode than PG or less damage than PG if they have Anoited's CA on. I can't imagine how you made your calculations.

You need Lord Castellant BADLY, sequitors will die to anything except chaff otherwise, also units that fight at the begginning of the phase will do so in your opponent's turn before you get to channel shields.

Sequitors are also worse against shooting than PG

I agree that sequitors are somewhat tougher in CC against low rend, but when there is so many damn MWs flying left and right it's hardly worth it and they also cost more points.

[zilberfrid]

PG are also prettier. Especially if you change their heads.

[dekay]

PG are tougher than sequitors against anything high rend, they have comparatively smaller footprint so use auras more efficiently, are functionally immune to battleshock and have easier access to re-rolls. They are superior in almost any circumstance. Plus, due to larger numbers, they are better at recieving 'every model gains X types of buuffs, such as aura of glory).

However, there are some situatiions where black guard have some edge over them - yes, they're much more fragile and only a little cheaper (well, they cost the same as a full unit), but their access to run and charge makes them exceptionally better suited for aggressive use, especially if we take into account just how many run buffs we have availible (musician, wildform, tempes'ts eye, possibly more). Phoenix guard won't get a 1st turn charge, black guard will. Then, of course, they will start dying while PG won't, but still, in some matchups you'd prefer your halberd elites in enemy face. Executioners are, like, economy option of black guard and usually worse, but might be reasonable if you simply can't afford BG...

[Frowny]

I think there is some truth to both of you. I did the math back in the 50's. 

Sequitors are per point sturdier against rend 0 without a castellant. Remember that they are cheaper. That matters a bunch. Also with a castellant, as long as you buy ~10 sequitors, they are also do better against rend 1. They do trail off against 2 rend or better relative to pheonix guard, and certainly lose to mortal wounds.

With rerolls to hit, they also hit harder than pheonix guard per point against a 4+ save. 

This makes the other side true as well. Pheonix guard are sturdier if sequitors rr hits and killier then sequitors rerolling saves. So on any given turn, they are either sturdier OR fightier, but not both. That is also ignoring the castellant himself, who isn't an amazing fighter, but does have some wounds and reasonably good attacks, which probably puts them over the top in other situations as well. 

Overall, not obvious to me which is which, but it seems like it might be a bit of a wash, really. 

Sounds like well-balanced infantry!

Edited October 25, 2019 by Frowny
Typo

[Double Misfire]

15 hours ago, Sputnik said:

Could someone please do me a favour and let me know what leaders and units are options in Path To Glory? I'm particularly interested to know if Sylvaneth  are an option for a Living City Path To Glory campaign. Thanks!

There are no Sylvaneth (or Kharadon or Stormcast) available in the CoS Path to Glory charts.  

I'm sure whoever's running your campaign would be cool if you wanted to parachute in the occasional roll on the Sylvaneth charts in a Living City army though.

All the "regular" CoS heroes and units with warscrolls in the book are available for Path to Glory.  

[Double Misfire]

15 hours ago, Sputnik said:

Could someone please do me a favour and let me know what leaders and units are options in Path To Glory? I'm particularly interested to know if Sylvaneth  are an option for a Living City Path To Glory campaign. Thanks!

There are no Sylvaneth (or Kharadon or Stormcast) available in the CoS Path to Glory charts.  

I'm sure whoever's running your campaign would be cool if you wanted to parachute in the occasional roll on the Sylvaneth charts in a Living City army though.

All the "regular" CoS heroes and units with warscrolls in the book are available for Path to Glory.  

[zilberfrid]

5 minutes ago, Frowny said:

I think there is some truth to both of you. I did the math back in the 50's. 

Sequitors are per point sturdier against rend 0 without a castellant. Remember that they are cheaper. That matters a bunch. Also with a castellant, as long as you buy ~10 sequitors, they are also do better against rend 1. They do trail off against 2 rend or better relative to pheonix guard, and certainly lose to mortal wounds.

With rerolls to hit, they also hit harder than pheonix guard per point against a 4+ save. 

This makes the other side true as well. Pheonix guard are sturdier if sequitors rr hits and killier then sequitors rerolling hits. So on any given turn, they are either sturdier OR fightier, but not both. That is also ignoring the castellant himself, who isn't an amazing fighter, but does have some wounds and reasonably good attacks, which probably puts them over the top in other situations as well. 

Overall, not obvious to me which is which, but it seems like it might be a bit of a wash, really. 

Sounds like well-balanced infantry!

All in all, I get the idea that infantry choice is rather balanced for the most part, and that choices are made mostly because you want a particular faction, or a very specific function.

This pleases me.

• Guard, Greatswords and crossbowmen perform very well when near a General and stationary, but fall a bit behind when not. Handgunners are less dependent on the General, but perform just a bit less in general.
• The Sorceress really wants Coven infantry with her (they buff her, which is dissimilar from the General), and they are better when moving. 
• Disposessed like to have a hero near them, but seem a bit less dependent on it than Freeguild, not very mobile either.
• Shadow warriors are very good by themselves (primarily due to their way of entring the battlefield), but won't get any buffs from the hero.
• Phoenix guard are good by themselves, but better when near an Anointed.
• Eternal guard and Sisters are unique in being able to be buffed by Sisters of the Thorn (non-hero wizard), and like not moving, Rangers don't mind moving, and murderize monsters.

For cavalry, we can make a similar comparison

• Pistoleers do well when charging, especially in Tempest's Eye, they can shoot, charge (rerolling unfavourable results), then shoot again (sidestepping the activation wars) after which they really run out of steam a bit. Until next turn, when they do the same.
• Outriders have longer range, crucial if you want them as mercenaries, but don't have the raw damage output Pistoleers have.
• Demigryph knights are true heavy cav, 3+ save, lots of rending attacks, and more wounds per unit than the rest of the cav.
• Dark Riders have lots of non-rending shots, lots of speed, and a 2 damage lance on the charge, and do well in big blobs due to cost reduction, and of course have their 4+ save.
• Sisters of the Thorn are non-hero wizards, who also have a mixed melee/ranged profile and good speed.
• Wild Riders have 2 lance attacks, which are quite good when charging, which is rare, but do miss their save. I have not calculated whether these are worth it.
• Drakespawn Knights have 3+ save, which is brilliant, but move slowly, have only one lance attack, and are not worth their points.

I have not done a lot of thinking about the hydra and kharybdis.

[Double Misfire]

New Runelord complete. If you need to ask why he's on a pony, hit up the Warhammer Achievements thread.  

[SwampHeart]

No one seems to be acknowledging the fact that Sequitors aren't a Battle Line choice (and thus require an additional 3 units to be purchased) where PG are a situational Battle Line in cities. That by itself pushes PG beyond Sequitors. 

[Double Misfire]

Seriously discussing running any Battleline but Longbeards in a CoS force:

[tripchimeras]

With all the back and forth, I thought it useful to actually look at the real numbers as best I could rather then all of us just stating better at x or y.  How much better is relevant.

Sequitors 26 ppm:

offensive form-
Base damage dealt: 1.90
Damage vs 4+ save: 1.15
Damage received base: .54
With Castelant: .29
Damage received rend 1 : .63
With Castelant: .54

Defensive form-
Base damage dealt: 1.42
Damage vs 4+ save: .86
Damage received base: .25
With Castelant: .11
Damage received rend 1 : .44
With Castelant: .25

*Note that due to the mixed arm nature of the unit I couldn't just take the damage output of a single model, I had to take the proportion of the unit using each and add them together then divide by # of models.  Also I am ignoring the healing associated with the Castelants ability because it requires a bunch of assumptions like a model having a single wound on it already when the attacks are made and the fact that it is capped effectively at 1 wound for the unit per attack sequence which means that its effect on damage taken is proportional to the number of wounds taken decreasing the more wounds taken.

Phoenix Guard 16 ppm:

Base damage dealt: .93
with annointed: 1.24
Damage vs 4+ save: .62
with annointed: .83
Damage received base: .25
Damage received rend 1: .33
 

*Note that Command abilities exist for rerolling 1's to hit and rerolling 1's on save.  This is significant because Offensive sequitors don't benefit from the first and sequitors in any stance don't benefit from the second.  This means that PG have ability to improve further in the comparison, while sequitors don't.

 

On top of this comparison it should also be noted that with annointed PG are immune to battleshock and are battleline, and in general have +1 movement on sequitors. 

Additionally in analysing damage output, 3 ranks of PG are going to be able to attack while for the most part only 1 rank of sequitors will.  So you are rarely going to get a full unit of sequitors attacking all at once, while with PG it is not improbable at all for a large percentage of a 30 man unit to get their strikes in.  Additionally while 10 PG is a thing, 5 Sequitors probably is not due to SCE unit limitations in Cities.  So we really should only be comparing a unit of 30 PG to 15 or 20 sequitors.  I think the most common thing is a unit of 30 PG or a unit of 20 sequitors.  The one big advantage here for Sequitors is not that their blocks are 30pts cheaper (I think PG are 30pts better) its that their last 5 only cost 30pts total.   For me PG makes significantly more sense even with this consideration, due to all the intangibles and their superiority as an unbuffed unit that can just do it all regardless of situation.  While Sequitors are slightly better in specific situations, they completely crumble in others, while PG are strong in all.  There are definitely specific lists Sequitors may end up being better in, but as a generality I stand by putting PG as tier 1 of elite infantry, and think this bears it out.  As @mmimzie noted too, PG do better in the slaaneshi matchup, while sequitor are going to make you cry.  Given that Slaanesh stand at the tippy top of the meta, despite that being 1 specific matchup that is quite significant as well.

EDIT In summary per block of 5 Seq vs block of 10 PG*:
Wounds: Tie
S - 10 vs PG 10

Sequitors Attacking: Advantage to PG
Base SA- 9.5 vs PG - 9.3 (difference SA +2%)
vs 4+  SA- 5.75 vs  PG - 6.2 (difference PG +7%)
Base Defense SA - .54 vs PG - .25 (difference PG+53%)
Defense rend 1: SA - .63 vs PG - .33 (difference PG+48%)

Sequitors Defending: Advantage to PG
Base SD - 7.1 vs PG - 9.3 (difference PG +24%)
vs 4+ SD - 4.3 vs PG - 6.2 (difference PG+32%)
Base Defense SD - .25 vs PG - .25 (difference even)
Defensse rend 1: SD - .44 vs PG - .33 (difference PG+25%)

Sequitos defending with character vs PG with character: Very slight advantage PG
Base SD - 7.1 vs PG - 12.4 (difference PG+43%)
vs 4+ SD - 4.3 vs PG- 8.3 (difference PG+48%)
Base Defense SD - .11 vs PG - .25 (difference SD+56%)
Defense rend 1: SD - .25 - PG -.33 (difference SD+24%)

*I admit using % difference isn't the best metric, as the smaller the number the less it matters most of the time.  The fact that only 25% of damage is going through for PG vs 11% for sequitors, is less meaningful to the flow of the game then say 25% vs 50%.  But I am getting lazy so, that's what I used because it seemed easiest.  Potentially would have been better instead of going 5 vs 10 for damage to go 1 vs 2 as it compares easier to the defense differences.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Sputnik]

5 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

There are no Sylvaneth (or Kharadon or Stormcast) available in the CoS Path to Glory charts.  

I'm sure whoever's running your campaign would be cool if you wanted to parachute in the occasional roll on the Sylvaneth charts in a Living City army though.

All the "regular" CoS heroes and units with warscrolls in the book are available for Path to Glory.  

Thanks very much. I've decided to make it simpler for myself and just play Path To Glory with Sylvaneth and then expand into Living City later. 

[mmimzie]

16 hours ago, soots said:

Higher wounds. I would argue are better for battleshock since you only get -1 for every 2 wounds

PG effectively have 2 wounds as they half all damage they take via thier save.  WHile it subject to some randomness the randomness can help as much as it harms. So this between the two is a none issue. 

 

7 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

No one seems to be acknowledging the fact that Sequitors aren't a Battle Line choice (and thus require an additional 3 units to be purchased) where PG are a situational Battle Line in cities. That by itself pushes PG beyond Sequitors. 

This is ture but it helps as much as it hurts because unless you are bringing a pheonix in your army simply because you want the pheonix and you want it with an annoited, and you want it to be your general than the PG battle line can be consider free. However, if the above things aren't the case it is a cost to make the PG battle line even at just an annointed that puts the max unit cost at 500+pts vs 20 sequitors at ~400pts. Which is rather signifigant, but it does lessen if you take more PG. Either way we do have some very mean general options out there and the PG have to compete with this as well. 

I still thing PG are alittle better in my book than sequitors, but only by alittle over all. The main advantage being more damage all the time (vs the sequitor modes), and more models for objecting purposes, and if you want a pheonix general or your general doesn't matter than PG also edge out the sequitors a little more. 

I think you can make arguement for both, but i think both will cost you some where.

[overtninja]

On 10/25/2019 at 3:56 AM, Sputnik said:

Could someone please do me a favour and let me know what leaders and units are options in Path To Glory? I'm particularly interested to know if Sylvaneth  are an option for a Living City Path To Glory campaign. Thanks!

No Sylvaneth options in P2G for Living City, it's all CoS units in the lists.

Basic gist for P2G is you choose your general from a big list of most characters, which gives you between 2 rolls on the follower table (for Annointed on Phoenix and other monster riders), 3 rolls for a Luminark or Hurricanum with Battlemage or Steam Tank Commander, 4 for most foot Heroes, and 5 for a Fleetmaster. Then, you have Duardin, Human, and Aelf Follower tables, Aelf and Human Cavalry tables, Elite followers (elite melee and ranged infantry), and Hero followers (all the foot heroes not in the General table).

If you go with rolling a d6 on the tables to build your list as you go, you'll end up with an extremely mixed sub-faction list, which might not have the sorts of synergies that CoS depends on to do well, especially depending on the General you chose. It would suck to, for example, take a Nomad Prince and then roll a bunch of dwarves or humans.

While I'm generally a fan of rolling for the units that end up in my army, I think that it would be difficult in CoS.

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, overtninja said:

No Sylvaneth options in P2G for Living City, it's all CoS units in the lists.

Basic gist for P2G is you choose your general from a big list of most characters, which gives you between 2 rolls on the follower table (for Annointed on Phoenix and other monster riders), 3 rolls for a Luminark or Hurricanum with Battlemage or Steam Tank Commander, 4 for most foot Heroes, and 5 for a Fleetmaster. Then, you have Duardin, Human, and Aelf Follower tables, Aelf and Human Cavalry tables, Elite followers (elite melee and ranged infantry), and Hero followers (all the foot heroes not in the General table).

If you go with rolling a d6 on the tables to build your list as you go, you'll end up with an extremely mixed sub-faction list, which might not have the sorts of synergies that CoS depends on to do well, especially depending on the General you chose. It would suck to, for example, take a Nomad Prince and then roll a bunch of dwarves or humans.

While I'm generally a fan of rolling for the units that end up in my army, I think that it would be difficult in CoS.

I think it is best to make Path to Glory tables based on the people around the table. Good to have a rough draft in the book, but Cities isn't really integrated enough for those tables to work.

Edited October 27, 2019 by zilberfrid

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

I’m not involved with playing so I’m not sure if this is a trend or not.

I was clipping some Thralls I was going to model for apart of my cities project and noticed that it would seem most new things are put on 32mm bases. Seems odd that new IDK models are on 32 where things like all the old selves, humans dwarves are all on 25s.

not sure if it’s because they are smaller in scale or what. But thought it was something.

[Aloth_Corfiser]

Yeah it "worries" me a bit, because I like 25mm Bases personally Just for the fact that you can fit your models more realiably into Terrain and especially with Aelves it is a nice thing to have a smaller footprint. It becomes especially apparent when one compares Namarti Thralls to Wildwood Rangers:
-Wildwood Rangers have 25mm Bases but a 2" reach
-whereas Thralls have 32mm Bases and a 1" reach - despite their huge weapons    
I always considered that bizarre if not unintentionally funny - granted the Thralls have wider stances and such and the Rangers were designed for rank and file and maybe GW gave Thralls 1" for balancing reasons, but who knows.
Just yesterday i built a unit Champion for my Sisters of the Watch using a Namarti Reaver Body - the legs did barely fit onto the Base 😁
When hopefuly at some time in the Future "Tyrion - Hysh - Aelves" see the light of day I am unsure about my Base size preference - 32s offer more freedom for Base customization afterall. 
I would consider it a Trend for new Stuff to be mostly on 32mm Bases though.
 

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

I’m not involved with playing so I’m not sure if this is a trend or not.

I was clipping some Thralls I was going to model for apart of my cities project and noticed that it would seem most new things are put on 32mm bases. Seems odd that new IDK models are on 32 where things like all the old selves, humans dwarves are all on 25s.

not sure if it’s because they are smaller in scale or what. But thought it was something.

It has to do with scale creep.

25 mm for the old 28mm scale, everything is a lot bigger than the mid-'90s.

[dekay]

Good thing is, as smaller base is mostly an advantage, that as we'll probably never get new models,our armies will be able to get comparatively more models to combat or under aura range.

[Aelfric]

38 minutes ago, Aloth_Corfiser said:

-Wildwood Rangers have 25mm Bases but a 2" reach
-whereas Thralls have 32mm Bases and a 1" reach - despite their huge weapons    
I always considered that bizarre if not unintentionally funny - granted the Thralls have wider stances and such and the Rangers were designed for rank and file and maybe GW gave Thralls 1" for balancing reasons, but who knows.

I always put it down to the fact that Thralls are blind and that their other senses can only compensate with this in battle within a relatively small area.

[stus67]

What weapon do you guys put on your Griffon? I'm thinking a lance because it just looks the best, but i'm also looking at the sword.

[SentinelGuy]

Does the 1 in 4 limit on Stormcast get rounded up? E.g if I have 7 units in total, can 2 of them be SC?

[dekay]

Just now, SentinelGuy said:

Does the 1 in 4 limit on Stormcast get rounded up? E.g if I have 7 units in total, can 2 of them be SC?

Nope, only 1. 1 for every full 4.