AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[Batch]

Still waiting for Helstorm Rockets to become available again....pls 

[kreossjmw]

Thanks overtninja! Yeah I just noticed the greatswords are only 1". That's a shame. You might be right, 20 might be a good number and they can be my General's Bodyguard.

Leaders
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Trait: Blood of the Twelve
- Artifact: The Twin Stone
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Wings of Fire

Battleline
20x Freeguild Greatswords (320)
20x Freeguild Greatswords (320)
3 x Demigryph Knights (180)
- Halberds
3 x Demigryph Knights (180)
- Lance and Sword
3 x Demigryph Knights (180)
- Lance and Sword
20x Freeguild Handgunners (200)
- Long Rifle
20x Freeguild Handgunners (200)
- Long Rifle
20x Freeguild Handgunners (200)
- Long Rifle

Total: 1970/ 2000
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
City: Hammerhall

I can't fit in a 3rd Greatsword so I added a 3rd Demigryph Knights and gave them Halberds. I dropped the Greatswords down to 20 and gave my General a Twin Stone so he can buff the Demigryph Knights when they make the charge. I could add a Stormcast unit instead of a 3rd Demigryph. What do you think?

[Arkhanist]

I'm trying to decide which way to build my 30 unbuilt ironbreakers/irondrakes (2017 tempest's eye box and new SC box) as I currently have neither unit and could use some advice for my duardin heavy force, which I'm probably going to run as Tempest Eye or Greywater (custom paint scheme though I'm currently testing)

Well, I do have a bunch of old marauder ironbreakers, but they really don't fit with the lighter armour, or the theme or size of modern duardin - they look more like warriors these days! I do have 30 hammerers which are going to be my big 'smash face' unit. I have a bunch of old 1st version plastic empire swordsmen, halberds, handgunners and crossbows. (I don't want to run my old thunderers/quarrelers as freeguild as I prefer WYSIWYG to avoid confusing an opponent, particularly as those warscrolls are still legal). I have probably 100 old metal warriors (many also marauder) and miners that could be converted to more longbeards with some greenstuff, and I do have some of those anyway. So I could run an entire army of longbeards if I wanted - maybe a fun project for later!

So my current choice is basically either 20/30/2x20 irondrakes (2x20 if I buy another box) with freeguild swords or halberds in front as chaff screens, or inverted with small units of ironbreakers in front of freeguild crossbows/handgunners (could run either). I could do irondrakes and longbeards, but it seems the old grumblers are outclassed by cheaper freeguild buffed by a general or tougher, harder hitting ironbreakers as speedbumps. I wish I could easy reuse the leftover bits of the irondrake/ironbreaker boxes, but bodies seem to be more expensive from bits sites than just buying a whole new box!

I do have 2 modern gyros (same boxes) unbuilt and several old ones, will be running a 3 steam gyrocopter unit I think. I will likely be buying a knight-azyros as a cheap target spotter, maybe with some new pistoliers as a cheap screen. I'll probably also kitbash an old anvil and new Hurricanum at some point later. I don't have any elves at all, (so no phoenix guard or darkshards!) I'd like to stay freeguild/duardin heavy for now, as that's  what I have!

Plenty of old wizards, runelords and warden kings for characters (and probably something I can run as a freeguild general) plus a stormcast incantor; also 6 prosecutors and castellant, neither of which seem that helpful to include.

Anyway - irondrakes or ironbreakers, which would you choose?

[Batch]

If you need a rock solid wall Ironbrakers are what you want, buffed by the a Runelord no one is getting past.

You want a gunline? Irondrakes then have a line or two of Longbeards defending them and giving them the reroll of 1 wounds.

[SentinelGuy]

After playing a few games I've reached the conclusion that drakespawn knights are one of the worst units in the game. It's hard to believe that GW took an already weak unit and actually made them worse, even more so when the designers think they have improved them. There's not a single reason to take them when demigryph knights, pistoliers and wild riders all exist in the same army book for cheaper or similar prices. At this point I'm convinced it's just deliberate trolling on the part of GW because they hate gamers who still want to play knights on normal sized horses/cold ones.

My excitement for the book has been somewhat diminished after a few test games. They've cut out too many useful units and there's little synergy in what's left. Overall it feels half-baked, plenty of useless spells and artifacts, weak and/or overcosted units (drakespawn knights, drakespawn chariot, freeguild spearmen, hellblaster, hellstorm, phoenixes without riders, executioners). A few standout cities and units that everybody will take.

They should have kept the old high elf general and standard bearer boxes in circulation and added the excelsior warpriest to the army. At least that way it would be possible to build an elven hero with a bow and have a hero on horseback to support the cavalry units. Then we could have had access to some cool magic banners that affect all CoS units and a supporting prayer list for the priest.

Edited October 11, 2019 by SentinelGuy

[Charlo]

On 10/9/2019 at 3:24 PM, Myrdin said:

You could run them as Gyrobombers, if you could add some nice fitting bits to represent the bombs. Like some stones with holy sigils, or pieces of sigmarite terrain, or the shrine from the old Bretonia miltia, etc.

Think the seraphon pterodactyls that can drop the firebombs. I mean its just something to think about if you have more then one of those and still want to use them

Funnily enough I had this idea too. Maybe 2 to a base, it can be a wizard on Pegasus or something...

[Mjolnertf]

3 hours ago, SentinelGuy said:

After playing a few games I've reached the conclusion that drakespawn knights are one of the worst units in the game. It's hard to believe that GW took an already weak unit and actually made them worse, even more so when the designers think they have improved them. There's not a single reason to take them when demigryph knights, pistoliers and wild riders all exist in the same army book for cheaper or similar prices. At this point I'm convinced it's just deliberate trolling on the part of GW because they hate gamers who still want to play knights on normal sized horses/cold ones.

My excitement for the book has been somewhat diminished after a few test games. They've cut out too many useful units and there's little synergy in what's left. Overall it feels half-baked, plenty of useless spells and artifacts, weak and/or overcosted units (drakespawn knights, drakespawn chariot, freeguild spearmen, hellblaster, hellstorm, phoenixes without riders, executioners). A few standout cities and units that everybody will take.

They should have kept the old high elf general and standard bearer boxes in circulation and added the excelsior warpriest to the army. At least that way it would be possible to build an elven hero with a bow and have a hero on horseback to support the cavalry units. Then we could have had access to some cool magic banners that affect all CoS units and a supporting prayer list for the priest.

hello, honestly what you say seems impossible to me, you can't make a book to everyone's taste, say things like that we have useless objects or that there is no synergy seems very hasty to me, it is a book that barely has two weeks in the market and an immense range of miniature, it is impossible to draw any clear and definitive conclusion of how the book will be.

gw does the books in the rough, I do not agree that he does not do them by testing or based on playing, they take it out and or they do well and ridiculously broken (flesh eater courts or slaneesh) or do things wrong.

we cannot propose that all the units of the book are playable and have their use, we are talking about there being: 19 heroes, 31 units, 7 behemoth and 2 war machines and that does not include stormcast, sylvaneth or Kharadrons.

I think you have to play with what we like (in my case I am determined to play dwarves) but if you play what you like, assume that it will not be the best.

all said from the utmost respect

[Frowny]

I just played a game against the new big Waagh. I felt a little bit outmached, made several mistakes (not remembering my own rules) but also noticed some bigger problems I'll have to address in list building.

My list:

Hallowheart

Hurricanum

Battlemage x3

Warden King -general, extra 4+ command pts

Ironbreakers x20

Longbeards x10

Irondrakes

2x Dark riders x 5

10x wild riders

3x gyrocopters -steam guns

Balewind vortex, geminids, swords

 

His list

1x old school wyvern with weird guy

2x dancing casters

1x Boar cast (general)

3x 30 Spear infantry

2x10 Boar boyz

If you count, you'll realize he has ~ 250 wounds on the board here with all a 6++. This is a nightmare for hallowheart armies...

 

Shifting Objectives

I deployed up on my line, ironbreakers in front, longbeards, casters and irondrakes behind. Right side was the gyros, wild riders, dark riders on each flank.

He deploys first, takes first turn, rolls for d3 extra CP's getting 3, rolls a 6 for his general to get more Waagh power, and immediately goes up to 19 Waagh with 1 CP, giving his entire army a 6++, move d6 after taking damage, +1 to hit, +1 to charge and +1 to wound. Absolutely Brutal. He then gets of a spell for double movement, using it on the boar boyz to charge 24 inches toward my copters, getting him to 20 waagh points for the full buff. Everything else advances, running 6 and 5 inches on the 2 middle blocks. His characters follow-suit.

This was my first mistake. I didn't realize he could so easily go 24 inches off the charge with such an incredibly easy t1 charge.  He killed all my copters, and a few dark riders, but also critically tied up my wild riders denying them the charge. Brutal start. I kill 2 boars in return.

On my turn, I do not get any bonus CP and spend mine for +2 to cast, but only take 1 wound, so don't have to heal anything. I jump on the balewind vortex and wildfire his front line. I also use elemental cyclone, hitting 19 in the central group but only doing 4 MW. My first bit of bad luck. Chain lightning does a few more wounds as well, and bounces to his characters. Geminids hits his characters for more MW. The  I buff up the ironbreakers with +1 wound, -1 to be hit. He uses his free d6 movement to keep away from my ironbreakers. Dark riders get the 4+ MW on death and jump on a far away objective. Other dark riders take the other flank objective. Ironbreakers move forward but are too slow to charge, so run. Irondrakes walk forward and shoot some orks. The hurricanum moves forward and snipes his 2 characters. 

Turn 2 he charges into my front line with endless orks. He moves his wyvern general up to behind his orks and uses 2 CP for +2 attacks on everyine. Ironbreakers hold like champs with -1 to be hit and -1 on him from the geminids, holding off 60 orks with 4 attacks each in a choke point in the middle of the board with my wizards behind. Glorious! He takes both flank objectives. I grind down his boarboyz eventually in the back line, although they do get my wizard. 

On my turn, everything is basically engaged, so I cast some spells and settle in for the grind. I again cast elemental cyclone, this time hitting 27 but only doing 5 MW. a second not-so-great luck. The irondrakes try to shoot his wyvern general, but I did not know he was both etheral and had a built in reroll for the out of date shield ability. Shoulda just plastered some orks. The hurricanum does 5 MW to it. Ironbreakers still hold with -1 to be hit, and kill a few more ork but take some casualties. I forgot to get my warden king up on his rock, and forgot to roll for more CP's, so the last ironbreakers end up fleeing. The warden king did pretty well in combat though....

He wins turn, and at this point I'm done for. I have nothing left to hold back still 60 orcs or so, so on his turn he will just smash my remaining units and he already holds every objective with me having no hope of taking it. 

 

Things learned/things that worked well/things that worked poorly

1) I felt pretty outclassed on the pure basis of our warscrolls. Ironbreakers at 130 points for 10 wounds at a 3+, 2 attacks each were just much much worse than his infantry at 110 points, 2 wounds with a 5+/6++ (much sturdier) and 3 attacks each (much killier). I'm not sure what I could have done differently there, but that was painful. His cavalry also put mine to shame. 15 wounds with a 6+/6+ for 140pts is noiceably sturdier than almost of our killy cav (10 wounds, 5+ save), and with 7 attacks each (rider +mount) on 3+/3+, they are also killier, and not nearly so dependent on the charge. His allegience ability also felt incredible. It seemed like he didn't have to try to get a huge range of awesome buffs. Based on this, I'm thinking of changing the ironbreakers for sequitors and the warden king for a lord castellant. The 3+ rerollable is much much sturdier. 

1b) Nothing I had felt broken. Double move + fly on a spell, for example, is game changing. The entire hallowheart spell list is excellent, but more in a reliably useful kind of way, not a game-changing one. Maybe I could improve this with the right endless spells, but I felt like everything was frustratingly balanced. Amazingly balanced, but also nothing that gave quite so many amazing options easily. I think this will be a very average battletome when everything evens out. 

2) Luck matters. He had good rolls on the most important ones, +6 to the Waagh for his general, getting the full buff t1, 3 CP at the start, big runs on T1 to get objectives) 7+ spell for double move without a cast buff, I never got the double turn. I had some good luck saving on the ironbreakers, but it didn't matter at that point. 

3) This felt like a terrible matchup. I just didn't feel like I had the tools to take out that many wounds. Elemental Cyclone let me down, and the gyros dying t1 didn't help but even if it went well, it seemed like an uphill battle. Any thoughts on how to deal with that many wounds? I really really want to avoid a hoard army, although do know that some big blocks of crossbows would be excellent here...

4) I really wish we had some more buffs besides +1 to hit and +1 to wound. +1 to save would be amazing. He had that as a spell AND a dance for easy access to +2 where he wanted it, although starting from a 5+ it wasn't as op as it would be in something with a baseline good save.

5) Hurricanum was amazing. +1 to cast made the wizards really reliable. +1 to hit sitting in the middle of my line was also very strong. And the sniping from the storm was also great for finishing off weak casters in the backline.

6) The whole ball of wizards was pretty affordable, had lots of utility and was great at assassinating heroes. I think it will be a staple of many of my lists. The balewind vortex to chain lightning + wildfire to the front line did a ton of MW distributed across his front, and hit several characters. Useful. However, I feel like more focused killing might be better. Geminids were amazing as always. The range is what sets them apart from other endless spells. They were also nice and consistent about giving out buffs (-1 to be hit, +1 to wound), which was nice. I wish I could fit a 5th wizard. 

7) Against rend 0, mystic shield on the ironbreakers would have been stronger than -1 to hit. 

8) Dark riders didn't seem to offer much. They were fast, but they didn't seem to excel in any dimension. Not sturdy enough to take a hit (like demigrphys) but not killy enough or shooty enough to really charge well (like pistoliers, outriders or wild riders). They will be dropped. 

9) irondrakes will not be returning. They are not for this list I think. They are too slow and their range too short. 

[Myrdin]

Seems like this wasnt really a match up determined by skill and planning, but a match determined purely by luck. Seems the rolls were completely in your opponents favor and you got avarage ones at best. I know it very well, when the dice gods are against you, the best of planning and strongest of warscroll wont help.

Those 10 Wild riders would be amazing, had they not been denied the charge. The fact that his boar boyz were able to do so much T1 could however serve as a learning point for you, to hide your bombers and wild riders with a screen or in the back line. Those are Orks, they will come to you, there is no need to go out there and meet them.

I hope you get a chance for a rematch, with the same lists. Hopefully with luck more evenly distributed and you taking note of what could happen t1 I believe, reading your batt. rep you would be able to do a lot better had those Copters and light cav not get rofl stomped in the very early stage of the game.

Anyway thanks for the Battle Report ! Was fun, and I wish you better luck next time ; )

Edited October 11, 2019 by Myrdin

[MisterH]

I noticed a discrepancy. In the Battletome, in the Freeguild Guard description, it says this:

"The unit is armed with one of the following weapon options: Freeguild Halberd; Freeguild Spear; or Freeguild Sword and Shield."

However, in the Warscroll Builder, the options are:
 

• Halberds and Shields
• Spears and Shields
• Swords and Shields
• Militia Weapons
   

Which is correct?

[Batch]

14 minutes ago, MisterH said:

I noticed a discrepancy. In the Battletome, in the Freeguild Guard description, it says this:

"The unit is armed with one of the following weapon options: Freeguild Halberd; Freeguild Spear; or Freeguild Sword and Shield."

However, in the Warscroll Builder, the options are:
 

• Halberds and Shields
• Spears and Shields
• Swords and Shields
• Militia Weapons
   

Which is correct?

Always go by the Warscroll, the builder has a habit of having a tonne of problems, don't know if they fixed it yet but you can't even select a weapon for your Gyrocopters yet either

Edited October 11, 2019 by Batch

[stratigo]

32 minutes ago, MisterH said:

I noticed a discrepancy. In the Battletome, in the Freeguild Guard description, it says this:

"The unit is armed with one of the following weapon options: Freeguild Halberd; Freeguild Spear; or Freeguild Sword and Shield."

However, in the Warscroll Builder, the options are:
 

• Halberds and Shields
• Spears and Shields
• Swords and Shields
• Militia Weapons
   

Which is correct?

the tome. The builder is working off their old warscroll here

[MisterH]

Dang. I have some halbardiers with shields that I wanted to use for guard.

[Myrdin]

So there is something I am a little bit confused in regards to the Cities, Realms and Wizards, so if anyone could help clear this up for me I`d be grateful.

*Each of your Cities must be from either Aqshy or Ghyran.

*Your BattleMages must choose one of the Realms to use that realms spell.

*Your Endless spells are empowered by the realm by default, when playing CoS

*Luminark and Hurricanums +1 if the battle is in Hysh /  Azyr

 

Soooo.... you might already guess my question here but.... How the heck does this fall into each other ?

If my City must by Aqshy or Ghyran, and all units from that City must be the same, as per pag 63 WARRIORS OF THE REALMS rule, it means I cant really choose a different realm for my Battlemages because they have to be the same as the remainder of the army, meaning I can only ever have Aqshy or Ghyran city and as such only can use spells that are tied to those cities.

Now for Endless spells I understand this. Basically they ignore the realm that is chosen by the city, and the realms the game is taking place in. Instead they are ALWYAS casted in their Empowered form, as if the realm the battle is taking place is was their own. This is clear.

But then how does the Luminark and Hurricanum fall into all of this ?  Both the magic carriages have an ability that gives +1 to Casting if they are in Hysh / Azyr. But if I can ever be in Aqshy and Ghyran realms.......

Good lord.... or alternatively if I CAN choose my city to be in another realms (which I dont think is possible since the rule clearly states it has to be Aqshy or Ghyran realm otherwise I cannot use that realms abilities, traits and artifacts,) IF I choose lets say HYSH or AZYR does Luminark and Hurricanum get their boost, even if the battle does NOT take place in that realm ? (meaning we as players agreed to not play using any specific realm) ? I mean the army would be treated as being from that realm, but the game is not taking place there. Do I get the +1 to cast if the army is from Hysh or Azyr but the battle is not taking place there ?

Also in that case again, the same question for the Battlemage > Can he choose a spell from a different realm, other then the one he belongs to, since he has to be part of the army and belong to the same realm ?

 

.....Good lord, this whole Realms mumbo jumbo is confusing the ever living poop out of me. I know this is a loaded multi question but if anyone can shed some light on how does it all work to make it a bit clearer, that would be fantastic. 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Myrdin

[Gecktron]

2 minutes ago, MisterH said:

Dang. I have some halbardiers with shields that I wanted to use for guard.

Just keep the shields on. There shouldnt be any confusion as shields arent a seperated option anymore. 

[MisterH]

That's probably what I'll do. They're old Battle Masters miniatures that are going to get pulled out of retirement.

[michu]

@Myrdin Your city's realm and the realm that battle is taking place are two different things (first is decided during list building and second before the battle). CoS rule prevents you only from taking non-Aqshy and non-Ghyran artefacts but the battle can still happen in Hysh, Chamon, Ghur, Ulgu...

But remember that Core Rules does not support fighting in Azyr (yet). It's a bit of foreshadowing.

EDIT: And you can still create a city and place it in other realms in your homebrew lore, you just won't be able to use that realm artefacts.

Edited October 11, 2019 by michu

[Gwendar]

8 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

it means I cant really choose a different realm for my Battlemages because they have to be the same as the remainder of the army

Now for Endless spells I understand this. Basically they ignore the realm that is chosen by the city, and the realms the game is taking place in. Instead they are ALWYAS casted in their Empowered form, as if the realm the battle is taking place is was their own. This is clear.

No, the rule for where your Battlemage comes from is entirely different than the realm your list comes from. The rule for the Battlemage is specifically just to show what spell they have... the realm rule is literally only for Artifacts and to fit the narrative the book has for each city.

Same applies for Luminark\Hysh... what realm your list is from doesn't do anything for their +'s to cast\unbind. The same applies to endless spells (except of course for CoS in which they're always empowered) in that all of this depends on what realm the battle is taking place which is entirely different than what realm your city comes from which you pick during the list building stage; CoS just forces you to pick one.

Again, that only matters when it comes to your artifact choice, it has no other bearing. Battlemages can be from wherever, Luminark\Hurricanum only get their bonuses if you and your opponent pick a realm to play in which is entirely optional and you would roll on the table for realm features, realm spells, etc... although GW events like to push these.

[Double Misfire]

For anyone who's still on the fence about buying it (or just wants to kill time), I've just put up a detailed review of the new battletome:

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2019/10/review-battletome-cities-of-sigmar.html

 

Have also updated my guides on using discontinued units (going as far back as the 1980s) in CoS armies with a couple of new options from the book:

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2019/09/no-substitute-discontinued-units-in.html

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2019/09/no-substitute-discontinued-units-in_26.html

 

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Double Misfire

[SwampHeart]

28 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

*Each of your Cities must be from either Aqshy or Ghyran.

The only thing this impacts is the realm artifacts you may purchase (there are 12 artifacts for each realm in Malign Sorcery). Usually you can choose any realm but for Cities you are bound to a specific realm by your city.
 

30 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

*Your BattleMages must choose one of the Realms to use that realms spell.

This has no bearing on anything aside from the Battle Mage itself. You must choose which spell the mage gets by selecting a realm - this has nothing to do with selecting a realm for your army or what realm you play in. This rule is relevant to the specific Battle Mage warscroll only. 
 

32 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

*Your Endless spells are empowered by the realm by default, when playing CoS

This is just an allegiance ability - usually spells are empowered based on the realm you are playing in, for CoS they are always empowered. Full stop, nothing else to see here.
 

33 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

*Luminark and Hurricanums +1 if the battle is in Hysh /  Azyr

This has to do with the realm your battle is taking place in - it has nothing to do with selecting the realm for your city, nor does it have anything to do with your Battle Mage realm spell. If you are playing with realm rules you will select which realm you are playing in and this is how you can get these bonuses. 

Effectively what you're looking at is 4 separate rules that while all reference realms have nothing to do with one another. 

[Acid_Nine]

@Frowny Do you think if you had some different endless spells it would have gone differently? All I could think about was how delicious casting the purple sun would be versus those big blocks or orks...

[Frowny]

Maybe. I am limited heavily by what I physically own and am willing to proxy while I try things out. I think in that game it would have helped some, but I made enough mistakes that it wouldn't have changed the outcome overall

I would indeed love to try the purple sun. The problem with it is that the range is quite short, so you need spell portal to get it there t1. And then you have put 120 points in... 

I also felt short on casts the entire game. The battlemages have great spells, and the lore is so useful. Nothing broken but I wanted 5 spells from it every turn.

I also thunk warding brand is sneaky great. They will have to kill something. Be it your front line or some random objectives holders. Dealing half the wounds back is a very highw output for a single spell. True your things have to die, and they have some control over it, but it's very hard to avoid. they are going to kill something or you win in objectives. 

[SentinelGuy]

In one of my games I cast warding brand on a unit of 16 freeguild crossbowmen and charged them into a treeman. They took an absolute beating, but so did he 😂, definitely one of the best spells in the book. 

As for the earlier question about dealing with enemies at range, large units of freeguild crossbowmen backed up by a hurricanum and/or knight azyros seems to be the best way at the moment (even better if you can get a freeguild general in the mix as well). You could try darkshards with a sorceress if you want more mobility at the expense of range.

[SentinelGuy]

@Mjolnertf

Why shouldn't every unit in the book be useful?  These are supposedly experienced games designers and they charge a premium price for their product.

It's not as if they can't get similar units to work in other armies. Let's face it, the game is pretty basic as it is, it really shouldn't be a challenge to get these things ironed out before the book even goes to print.

[Double Misfire]

9 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

@Mjolnertf

Why shouldn't every unit in the book be useful?  These are supposedly experienced games designers and they charge a premium price for their product.

It's not as if they can't get similar units to work in other armies. Let's face it, the game is pretty basic as it is, it really shouldn't be a challenge to get these things ironed out before the book even goes to print.

Every unit in the book is useful. I tore my Drakespawn Knight page out. ☺️