The Merchant Prince Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 12 minutes ago, XReN said: Rules don't allow that. My mistake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batch Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Alright been doing a bit more list building for a Greywater Army...I think I need to let go of my love of Steam Tanks Runelord (90) General Trait: Seat on the Council Lord Ordinator (140) Cogsmith (60) Magnificent Macroscope Celestial Hurricanum w/ Battlemage (280) Steam Piston Plate mail Spell: choking fumes Battleline Irondrakes x 20 (300) Longbeard x 20 (220) Ancestral weapon w/ shield Ironbreakers x 10 (130) Artillery Helstorm Rocket Battery (130) Helstorm Rocket Battery (130) Helstorm Rocket Battery (130) Helstorm Rocket Battery (130) Gyrocopter x 2 (140) Steam gun Battalion Greywater Artillery company (120) 2 Extra CP 116 Wounds 2000 Points That double shot from the Artillery just looks damn Tasty. So a bit of explanation. The Artillery line has the Cogsmith and Lord Ordinator behind them, so of course with the Rockets you aim them all at the one unit for +1 and an additional +1 for the Ordinator and rerolling 1s with the Cog Smith. Now depending on how the map is placed I could even sit the Hurricanum next to them for the first turn for an extra +1, so potentially 24 shots hitting at 39" (an extra 3" if you wanna move em forward a bit) hitting on 2s rerolling 1s and wounding on 3s. Take out their big centerpiece with -2 rend and D3 damage each. Could be devastating. Send off two Gyros to nap an objective while the opponent decides how to deal with the rain of rockets. Down the middle we've got 20 Longbeards blocking way and letting out Irondrakes rain fire, if we get in a good position with a few things. The Hurricanum will follow them as will the Runelord. So provided if we get our Irondrakes in position a turn prior we get 40 shots at 16" hitting on 1s, ( +1 from the Hurricanum and +1 from the Greywater Command Ability) wounding on 3s rerolling 1s (Thankyou Longbeards) rend -2 (If the Runelord gets his prayer off) for only one damage a pop, but if we get 40 damage straight through then again. Devastating. 10 unit Squad of Ironbreakers for whatever the game requires, send them out the front, protect a point, or depending on the opponent they could protect the Artillery line. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XReN Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 It's kinda sad how much Hellstorm Battaries got nerfed, yesterday it kinda struck me - full 4 battaries in a battalion double shooting is equivalent to 40 man strong KO company with chemist, but more expensive, only once per game, less wounds, no added damage in form of pistols, can't shoot at close range. This is very dissapointing if we look at what benefits we get - almost twice the threat range, CP and Artefact. Why it lost an ability to shoot without LOS? Why it doesn't get better damage at least against hordes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 12 hours ago, Arkhanist said: Good question. GMG reads the relevent rule from page 63 (too small to read though for me). They do get the relevent city keyword, but don't get to pick a host keyword. So there's nothing stopping you taking a named stormcast character, and they will have the stormhost keyword that's hardcoded in their datasheet (most being Hammers of Sigmar) - but other stormcast units won't. So in Aventis' case, you could use all his abilities, with the exception being his Command Ability, as that only works on friendly Hammers of Sigmar - which you won't have any of. Unless you use it on himself, of course, or if you took a 2nd named character from HoS. Stormcast units can't take advantage of any stormhost allegience abilities though, which is presumably the primary reason for them not getting that keyword. They may also FAQ so it strips an existing fixed stormhost keyword, rather that just stops you adding one. But stormcast, including named characters can take advantage of relevent CoS keyword stuff, so they're more integrated than usual allies, and the only restriction is the 1 in 4 units limit. Except that what is really interesting in SCE are their heroes. We haven't got that many really standing out units, so what really shines are our heroes, Lord Castellant for ex. Except Knight AZyros and Lord Ordinator, none of our heroes can synergize with CoS units, they all do with SCE units only Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkl Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 7 hours ago, Frowny said: This makes drakespawn knights far and away the most resilient in the entire book, and very high overall as well. They are also very sturdy against higher rend attacks, but not by nearly so much, and also the sturdiest against higher rend attacks, although not by as much. Maybe useful as a mobile tarpit for lists that want that. Is there any chance you will consider going through the data on the monsters of the book? That would be awesome. Thanks for all the work you have already put into it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Maturin said: Except that what is really interesting in SCE are their heroes. We haven't got that many really standing out units, so what really shines are our heroes, Lord Castellant for ex. Except Knight AZyros and Lord Ordinator, none of our heroes can synergize with CoS units, they all do with SCE units only Indeed, and I think that's a bit of a missed opportunity given several stormhosts are literally based in CoS. I guess they thought it would be too powerful for SCE heroes to buff CoS units. That is the weakness of allies though, you take them for what they can do on their own rather than how they buff your main force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batch Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 20 minutes ago, XReN said: It's kinda sad how much Hellstorm Battaries got nerfed, yesterday it kinda struck me - full 4 battaries in a battalion double shooting is equivalent to 40 man strong KO company with chemist, but more expensive, only once per game, less wounds, no added damage in form of pistols, can't shoot at close range. This is very dissapointing if we look at what benefits we get - almost twice the threat range, CP and Artefact. Why it lost an ability to shoot without LOS? Why it doesn't get better damage at least against hordes? I agree for the most part but are KO able to shoot as far as 39"? And I think it depends how crazy your groups are with terrain, I dont think Line of sight will be that big of an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 18 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said: the flying chariot on the other hand will be troublesome sadly, since well they technically fit rather well into the dark aelve beast chariot, but will sadly not have the fly keyword😭. It you put some gears on it and a big gun and call it a steamtank 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XReN Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Batch said: I agree for the most part but are KO able to shoot as far as 39"? And I think it depends how crazy your groups are with terrain, I dont think Line of sight will be that big of an issue. I have mentioned the range Crazy enough for LOS-less shooting to be somewhere between "good" and "extremely powerfull". It also means protection from returning fire, so you wouldn't need to prioritise targets to first kill whatever threatens artillery and only than everything else. Edited October 2, 2019 by XReN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Netcode Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 minute ago, XReN said: I have mentioned the range Crazy enough for LOS-less shooting to be somewhere between "good" and "extremely powerfull". It also means protection from returning fire, so you wouldn't need to prioritise targets to first kill whatever threatens artillery and only than everything else. I think the best thing we can do is compare things at face value rather than their old iterations. Granted, I still dont know why I would take any Ironweld artillery outside of gyrocopters w/ steam guns over celestar ballistas unless im taking the greywater battalion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, Arkhanist said: Indeed, and I think that's a bit of a missed opportunity given several stormhosts are literally based in CoS. I guess they thought it would be too powerful for SCE heroes to buff CoS units. That is the weakness of allies though, you take them for what they can do on their own rather than how they buff your main force. I am really glad about it. I don't want to field Stormcast, and if they would be able lend their full support (as opposed to the CoS heroes and units that cannot), that would create balance issues that would need to be compensated by poorer allegiance abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Just now, Broken Netcode said: I think the best thing we can do is compare things at face value rather than their old iterations. Granted, I still dont know why I would take any Ironweld artillery outside of gyrocopters w/ steam guns over celestar ballistas unless im taking the greywater battalion. Well, there is the looks, of course, the Celestar Ballista makes no sense at all, a four barreled ballista simply can't be fired by string. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 7 hours ago, Frowny said: I did the math wrong on drakespawn knights. I had forgot they kept their rr'1s and 2's in combat, where every other unit just got the generic +1 save. Table should look like this. They don‘t, it‘s a mistake on the app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 15 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: They don‘t, it‘s a mistake on the app We can hope it's right in the app and a mistake in the warscroll? It would really give them a purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 18 minutes ago, zilberfrid said: We can hope it's right in the app and a mistake in the warscroll? It would really give them a purpose. I think it's the app that's wrong - GMG vid review screenshot from the CoS book matches to the updated website warscroll with the 3+ but no re-roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratigo Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 54 minutes ago, Batch said: I agree for the most part but are KO able to shoot as far as 39"? And I think it depends how crazy your groups are with terrain, I dont think Line of sight will be that big of an issue. In Tempest's eye? Actually, yes. The threat range of skyhooks is maximum 38 inches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, zilberfrid said: It would really give them a purpose. Imo even then they have no purpose. For 130 pts perhaps, but not for 170pts. They‘re meant to be Shock cavalry due to the dmg and defense buff once they‘re in combat. But they lack damage (dramatically so). They lack bodies to hold an objective. if they defend an objective they still lack the bodies and they lose their lance bonus. if they defend an objective and they‘re shot at their shields are also worse. So what exactly is their purpose? Block an enemy unit (that hopefully has no rend) for one turn? A 170 pts investment is way to expensive for a tarpit unit. they‘d need 2-3 attacks each or +1 lance attack and mounts with 2A, 3+, 3+ R-1, dmg 1 to be justifiable at 170 pts The Warscroll of the Knights is an utter design fail with no purpose and on top of it they cost more than most super-Elite cav units which can tank AND deal dmg. I was looking forward to using mine but I just can‘t justify burning points on a useless brick on the battlefield, so mine will go on eBay. Edited October 2, 2019 by JackStreicher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SentinelGuy Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 The knights problem really makes me question their playtesting, especially considering that GW actually noted how bad knights were previously and the new warscroll was supposed to fix them. They need another attack or a hefty points drop. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalandor Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 hours ago, XReN said: Rules don't allow that. Warscroll abilities overwrite core rules starting from a certain point in the core rules that I cant remember. The rule that you can only shoot targets within 3'' comes after that point, afaik that rule should therefore be overruled by the overwatch rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XReN Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Thalandor said: Warscroll abilities overwrite core rules starting from a certain point in the core rules that I cant remember. The rule that you can only shoot targets within 3'' comes after that point, afaik that rule should therefore be overruled by the overwatch rule. There is no controversy to be overrulled, what is that about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XReN Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 It's plain and simple - when you get charged - you can shoot, when you shoot and there is an enemy unit within 3" you can shoot only at enemy units within 3". Nothing implies that you should be able to shoot at any other unit, that's nonsense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalandor Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 woah, chill out dude. I know it doesn't make sense, but it doesn't change the fact that you are allowed to target another unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XReN Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, Thalandor said: woah, chill out dude. I know it doesn't make sense, but it doesn't change the fact that you are allowed to target another unit. If warscroll ability specificaly told you that you can shoot any unit, than that would be a fact, right now it's fantasy. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, SentinelGuy said: The knights problem really makes me question their playtesting, especially considering that GW actually noted how bad knights were previously and the new warscroll was supposed to fix them. They need another attack or a hefty points drop. Same and the Knights aren‘t the only unit that became worse (point efficiency) /Rant start It really makes me question if CoS can stand up to any new army yet we‘ve got new Allegiance Abilities Most units saw slight nerfs (or strange overcosting) maybe to prohibit too strong synergies (something they clearly didn‘t do for Orruk Warclans and ANY other new book) If CoS is truly just an attempt to sell older models then why did they make some warscrolls abyssmally bad? That‘s counter productive in do many ways. another point which stung a little was seeing that each faction has no faction-specific prayers (or at least one prayer table for all factions). And ofc that dwarves didn‘t get a second wound but lost all their defensive buffs (squishy dwarves everywhere, except for the naked ones). Maybe that‘s Just me but I feel a little let down and almost betrayed. apart from that some things (Chariots and Gyrocopters) were done right while all artillery became rather redundant and for some reason worse than the Celeste’s ballistas. it seems not thought through at all and imo the book will lack power due to an abundance of overcosting, delicately designed Allegiance Abilities which are meant to buff but fall flat since they‘re too weak and most of all: Subfactions that can only work within their subfactions - imo all command abilities and auras should work on ALL CoS units but they should work even better on units from the same subfaction. despite My criticism I am looking forward to at least try out some cities and see whether I like their playstyle & lore and whether they‘re good enough that they can be played without losing everytime. /Rant end Edited October 2, 2019 by JackStreicher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 51 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: Same and the Knights aren‘t the only unit that became worse (point efficiency) Hide contents /Rant start It really makes me question if CoS can stand up to any new army yet we‘ve got new Allegiance Abilities Most units saw slight nerfs (or strange overcosting) maybe to prohibit too strong synergies (something they clearly didn‘t do for Orruk Warclans and ANY other new book) If CoS is truly just an attempt to sell older models then why did they make some warscrolls abyssmally bad? That‘s counter productive in do many ways. another point which stung a little was seeing that each faction has no faction-specific prayers (or at least one prayer table for all factions). And ofc that dwarves didn‘t get a second wound but lost all their defensive buffs (squishy dwarves everywhere, except for the naked ones). Maybe that‘s Just me but I feel a little let down and almost betrayed. apart from that some things (Chariots and Gyrocopters) were done right while all artillery became rather redundant and for some reason worse than the Celeste’s ballistas. it seems not thought through at all and imo the book will lack power due to an abundance of overcosting, delicately designed Allegiance Abilities which are meant to buff but fall flat since they‘re too weak and most of all: Subfactions that can only work within their subfactions - imo all command abilities and auras should work on ALL CoS units but they should work even better on units from the same subfaction. despite My criticism I am looking forward to at least try out some cities and see whether I like their playstyle & lore and whether they‘re good enough that they can be played without losing everytime. /Rant end Reveal hidden contents The warscrolls as they are now do benefit from quicker play, but I agree they have not really had the buffs they needed to get. I am of two minds about not rolling all factions into one. One one hand, this makes play awkward because it's harder to use the buffs, on the other hand, this leaves the possibility of expansions to CoS factions. These need not even be balanced to work with CoS rules, for instance, some dwarves may be too suspicious of other races so they will never work for a City, or some Wanderers may simply dislike being in cities. I also think the tome was largely written before the culling list was finalized. I'm not sure why, but it simply feels that way to me. At any rate, I can now use the armies I like in a few different ways, which is something I like, and even if this is it, it's a framework where I can use CoS, core rules and Malign Sorcery to play at home with friends. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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